CR hybrid stage 3 turbo ....

badger5 said:
OP: As suggested correctly by slappy, actuator preload is the key, so you may have been the cause of your issues, BUT, Jabba should also have done more to sort this.. It would be obvious... I find these, so no excuse why they cant.

Dave: As dan's asked I am intrigued to what airflows yours does. I have done many hybrids.. and they are sensitive to their surroundings and supporting mods. Winding up the boost is not the answer, they just get too hot. If you have a log of its airflow that might shed some light onto whats occuring. And for the record, CR is significant...... ;)

EDIT: just seen you post 256g/s..... is that a real number or just divide .8 as its very close to 320bhp so on the money..
Do you run water meth? I dont remember. I say this as cars which have run wmi, and hybrids always have made more power from less boost (= less heat)
Click to expand...
I presume the figure was from when he was mapping it, but it was unstable and to hot and had to be turned down, tried timing witch just introduced knock, i think Paul was just as peed off as me, he tried everything.. it just wasnt going to happen. no WMI installed yet, i have one to go on, but i dont think i am going to pursue the hybrid any further...
 
clipping remember was in part to try and manage surge....... which yes I know is possible with some effort in mapping, but seemed to have benefit, without compromising spool (on the dyno) - the hotside remains the choke... as a side note, did you see a picture on slappys thread on vortex where a guy posted his relentless mani, running an external wg, and his hotside was an hgp one which looked to have had a welded in and machined insert on the hotside.. for bigger ar I guess. Interesting I thought.


Lupo makes 332bhp on clipped RS6 turbine/2283 comp in a K03 hotside with water meth from 20psi boost.. Smallport, 9.5:1 AUM engine.
16psi makes 280bhp, 11psi makes 230bhp
 
s3dave said:
I presume the figure was from when he was mapping it, but it was unstable and to hot and had to be turned down, tried timing witch just introduced knock, i think Paul was just as peed off as me, he tried everything.. it just wasnt going to happen. no WMI installed yet, i have one to go on, but i dont think i am going to pursue the hybrid any further...
Click to expand...

WMI cars are the only ones which have gone on to make the higher power levels on the hybrids..
As is probably obvious to you now, heat is the enemy.... so things like wmi, make the difference, not just AITs but the meth contribution to allowing more ign advance and reduced egt's for the same boost.... so you can get more from less.

I bleat about this all the time, except no one listens.... :sighs:
 
beachbuggy said:
Dave,

For reference I was getting 266grams which if you took the .8 is another 12bhp but whether relates to real world bhp is another matter. I would suggest you do a run without an air filter on to see if you can get better flow, be careful mind :) it might be the filter is restrictive my first filter choked my turbo.

On a side note, the fact you got 322bhp on a non clipped wheel just goes to show clipping isn't need. In the days before xs manifolds, Welly coolers and 3"dp etc then they where needed.
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Dan i have had 275 g/s out of it unintentionally when my wastegate jammed! CR says its very close to there recommended max of 300 bhp so cannot see a problem...
 
I went for a drive this morning with the n75 valve unpluged and it was boosting around 7psi at around 4-5k rpm then it was dropping to around 5psi. So i tightened it up around three half turns and its makeing 9psi at 4-5k rpm then dropping down to sevenish. So should i give it another turn maybe to increase it more? car already feels better with valve plugged in. it seems to drop to 14psi at 7k rpm
 
if you have the travel in the arm still add a little more and it should hold more..
remember the wg is having to hold shut a pressure ratio of approx 2:1 or 2.5:1 inside that ex mani/hotside
(eg: 20psi in plenum, 40psi in exhaust mani type pressure ratio)
 
badger5 said:
if you have the travel in the arm still add a little more and it should hold more..
remember the wg is having to hold shut a pressure ratio of approx 2:1 or 2.5:1 inside that ex mani/hotside
(eg: 20psi in plenum, 40psi in exhaust mani type pressure ratio)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info bill i will give it two more turns see what happens.
 
Okay so i gave it two more turns. with n75 unplugged its boosting tad under 10psi and at red line its 8psi. with it plugged it i am getting 24-25psi peak boost then a drop to just over 15psi which is much better than befor. dose this setting sound about right now or should i give it one more turn so i can try get it to 10psi at red line? or is that just too far.
 
badger5 said:
WMI cars are the only ones which have gone on to make the higher power levels on the hybrids..
As is probably obvious to you now, heat is the enemy.... so things like wmi, make the difference, not just AITs but the meth contribution to allowing more ign advance and reduced egt's for the same boost.... so you can get more from less.

I bleat about this all the time, except no one listens.... :sighs:
Click to expand...

what would you set your boost at with the n75 unplugged at red line? cheers
 
Dan s3 audi said:
when you say 15psi dose that mean at red line or peak boost? cheers
Click to expand...

Peak AND redline mate. At such low boost it should be held right out to the redline without dropping off at all.


It seems strange to me that your boost drops off at top end even on actuator pressure. Mine of anything rises slightly at the top end to about 13 psi where the waste gate can't flow enough to bypass the turbine entirely.
 
Prawn said:
Peak AND redline mate. At such low boost it should be held right out to the redline without dropping off at all.


It seems strange to me that your boost drops off at top end even on actuator pressure. Mine of anything rises slightly at the top end to about 13 psi where the waste gate can't flow enough to bypass the turbine entirely.
Click to expand...

Yer i am wondering wether it is due to the large port head and low compression pistons, its not picking the boost up quick enough. could it also be that the two standard intercoolers are restricting the flow at all?
 
Possibly yea, it's very hard to work out what's going on when you have such an odd spec! Higher than. Last in many many ways, yet scary stock ICs will be making things very hot!
 
s3dave said:
Dan, you are making progress tweaking the actuator, What is the car driving like now? do you have VCDS?
Click to expand...

well on the dyno sheets peak bhp was at 5442 rpm where it dropped down to 180bhp at 6500rpm due to the boost going down to like 13psi. now the car feels like its holding power better at higher rpm. so do i tweek it a little more then? vcds, whats this sorry?
 
Prawn said:
Possibly yea, it's very hard to work out what's going on when you have such an odd spec! Higher than. Last in many many ways, yet scary stock ICs will be making things very hot!
Click to expand...

well i was mad jobles after four years with one company the end of last month so i run out of funds and threw the car together to get mobile again. how much am i looking at for a intercooler that is any good and allows a good flow?
 
s3dave said:
Im struggling to understand why Jabba did not address the actuator as they did smoke tests etc?? and the low boost points an arrow directly at that...:uhm:
Click to expand...

he put his pressure pump gauge on the pipe going to the actuator and pumped it up and said it was opening at the correct pressure. i did say i had played with it by mistake.
 
s3dave said:
I Presume it will need a MAP tweak now the preload has altered? Bill etc, will give better advise
Click to expand...

he said to me that it was all set so one i found the boost problem it will limit it self, but i do want to get it cheacked again. Just anoying because its a 180 mile drive to jabba from bath.
 
Dan s3 audi said:
he put his pressure pump gauge on the pipe going to the actuator and pumped it up and said it was opening at the correct pressure. i did say i had played with it by mistake.
Click to expand...
Ah ah School boy error, it may have had the correct crack pressure but if it was loose by the wastegate it meant nothing...
 
Oh man :( why did you go to Joanna anyway when you're less than an hour from badger 5? Bill is the master of these hybrids!
 
Prawn said:
Oh man :( why did you go to Joanna anyway when you're less than an hour from badger 5? Bill is the master of these hybrids!
Click to expand...

i moved down here last week from lincolnshire, so just thought i would. where abouts is bill then because i might see if he can check things over and check the mixture
 
Dan s3 audi said:
Okay so i gave it two more turns. with n75 unplugged its boosting tad under 10psi and at red line its 8psi. with it plugged it i am getting 24-25psi peak boost then a drop to just over 15psi which is much better than befor. dose this setting sound about right now or should i give it one more turn so i can try get it to 10psi at red line? or is that just too far.
Click to expand...

You need at least be able to hold 18-21psi at the red line to make decent power. Anything less and power is just going to drop off.

Also and I'm sure it's not an issue, but just because the actuator cracks at 10 psi doesn't mean it's not going to blown open or can't sustain boost at higher exhaust pressures. As Bill pointed out 20 psi boost is 40 psi turbine pressure. The waste gate could be blowing or forcing its self open, no amount of preload is going to help that.

Its not recommended but the only way you can test is to unplug the pipe to the waste gate and drive sensibly to where you boost would normally peak then drive hard to the redline and see what the boost then does, that way you'll see what the actuator can hold without and assistance.

Result being if it still only holds 13 psi at redline then your waste gate is blowing open against the actuator spring and if it holds 18-21psi then you know it has to be a bad n75.

I stress though if it's all ok and you do it wrong then you'll surge the turbo, stick 30 psi spike through the engine and potentially damage it, so do with caution and personally I'd suggest not to do but it's really only a true way to test.
 
Dan I'm from bath, but moved to Bristol a few years ago. How old are you and where in bath do you live?
 
beachbuggy said:
You need at least be able to hold 18-21psi at the red line to make decent power. Anything less and power is just going to drop off.

Also and I'm sure it's not an issue, but just because the actuator cracks at 10 psi doesn't mean it's not going to blown open or can't sustain boost at higher exhaust pressures. As Bill pointed out 20 psi boost is 40 psi turbine pressure. The waste gate could be blowing or forcing its self open, no amount of preload is going to help that.

Its not recommended but the only way you can test is to unplug the pipe to the waste gate and drive sensibly to where you boost would normally peak then drive hard to the redline and see what the boost then does, that way you'll see what the actuator can hold without and assistance.

Result being if it still only holds 13 psi at redline then your waste gate is blowing open against the actuator spring and if it holds 18-21psi then you know it has to be a bad n75.

I stress though if it's all ok and you do it wrong then you'll surge the turbo, stick 30 psi spike through the engine and potentially damage it, so do with caution and personally I'd suggest not to do but it's really only a true way to test.
Click to expand...

I will give that a go in the morning. i am finding tho at 25psi the turbo is surging in higher gears, could this mean that there is a flow problem between the turbo and manifold?
 
Dan s3 audi said:
I will give that a go in the morning. i am finding tho at 25psi the turbo is surging in higher gears, could this mean that there is a flow problem between the turbo and manifold?
Click to expand...

Please do with extreme caution, it's potentially not good.

Below 4750rpm I'd expect surge to occur at 25psi on any setup, map sensor is just before the throttle anyway so what it sees the manifold see's . The 1.8t can't handle 25psi sustained below that rpm with out surging . What happens between there and the redline is the more important question.
 
beachbuggy said:
Please do with extreme caution, it's potentially not good.

Below 4750rpm I'd expect surge to occur at 25psi on any setup, map sensor is just before the throttle anyway so what it sees the manifold see's . The 1.8t can't handle 25psi sustained below that rpm with out surging . What happens between there and the redline is the more important question.
Click to expand...

how do i get rid of the surge? at the low rpm?
 
beachbuggy said:
You need at least be able to hold 18-21psi at the red line to make decent power. Anything less and power is just going to drop off.

Also and I'm sure it's not an issue, but just because the actuator cracks at 10 psi doesn't mean it's not going to blown open or can't sustain boost at higher exhaust pressures. As Bill pointed out 20 psi boost is 40 psi turbine pressure. The waste gate could be blowing or forcing its self open, no amount of preload is going to help that.

Its not recommended but the only way you can test is to unplug the pipe to the waste gate and drive sensibly to where you boost would normally peak then drive hard to the redline and see what the boost then does, that way you'll see what the actuator can hold without and assistance.

Result being if it still only holds 13 psi at redline then your waste gate is blowing open against the actuator spring and if it holds 18-21psi then you know it has to be a bad n75.

I stress though if it's all ok and you do it wrong then you'll surge the turbo, stick 30 psi spike through the engine and potentially damage it, so do with caution and personally I'd suggest not to do but it's really only a true way to test.
Click to expand...

Okay with the pipe connected from the actuator to the n75 16psi on red line, with the pipe disconected 16psi. so i guess that rules out the n75. what next?
 
Dan s3 audi said:
Okay with the pipe connected from the actuator to the n75 16psi on red line, with the pipe disconected 16psi. so i guess that rules out the n75. what next?
Click to expand...

If I read this right... on n75 control you get 16psi at 6800rpm and with the actuator disconnected completely you get the same 16psi yea?

If so, the turbos flat out..... and one reason could be the wg itself is being blown open by manifold pressure.. as I suggested earlier and beachbuggy also said.
There is a lot of backpressure in these setups..

Also.. worth considering is how much overall pressure drop you have from turbo outlet to inlet plenum, given you have stock twin smic.
without fmic, I would think 18psi held flat across the rev range would be suited to stock intercooling. To hold 18psi of course the awg would need to be staying shut = a stiffer actuator required as adding preload will at some point rob the turbo of wg travel.

I mention pressure drop as the 16psi at plenum may be 26psi at turbo outlet! (if there's a 10psi pressure drop, which I have seen on some poor setups)

Surge is going to occur without a progressive build of boost OR improving the engines breathing abilities.. (capacity, cams etc)

oh, my location etc is in my siggy.. Just south of Gloucester
 
badger5 said:
If I read this right... on n75 control you get 16psi at 6800rpm and with the actuator disconnected completely you get the same 16psi yea?

If so, the turbos flat out..... and one reason could be the wg itself is being blown open by manifold pressure.. as I suggested earlier and beachbuggy also said.
There is a lot of backpressure in these setups..

Also.. worth considering is how much overall pressure drop you have from turbo outlet to inlet plenum, given you have stock twin smic.
without fmic, I would think 18psi held flat across the rev range would be suited to stock intercooling. To hold 18psi of course the awg would need to be staying shut = a stiffer actuator required as adding preload will at some point rob the turbo of wg travel.

I mention pressure drop as the 16psi at plenum may be 26psi at turbo outlet! (if there's a 10psi pressure drop, which I have seen on some poor setups)

Surge is going to occur without a progressive build of boost OR improving the engines breathing abilities.. (capacity, cams etc)

oh, my location etc is in my siggy.. Just south of Gloucester
Click to expand...

Okay so what i will do tonight is plumb the pressure gauge befor the n75 so that it reads the pressure at turbo and not after intercoolers. I do think to it is a wastegate proplem after reading a thread that you did with a hybrid turbo i see that they had ported the wastegate too much. i have lots of travel left on the actuactor to i will tweek that a little more befor i look into getting a new actuator. Now what should the reading of a hybrid turbo in boost be before the intercoolers and what rpm just to give me a figure to work from as i have no idea what hybrid turbos are cabable of delevering boost wise. I am a learning man lol
 
unleashed they will >30psi easily.. which you dont want to see.
I aim for 12psi actuator (plenum) pressure on these as a start point.. N75 off in your terms

it will spool hard from 3krpm
 
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