Were We In The Wrong?

[AudiNutta]

Hi Guys,

Bit of a random thread really. I was just hoping for your own opinions.

I was out with my grandparents in the car today. As we approached a roundabout (I noticed it before my granddad did and warned him) There was a joker of a learner driver in the outside lane. I swear she wasn't doing above 5mph! We were in the inside lane and went to pass to merge onto the dual carriageway.
She made eye contact with us before she swerved as she performed a shoulder check.
As we started to pass the learner driver she swerved out to the left, causing us to break hard and narrowly missed curbing the wheels, on my grandparents 12 reg Volvo which they wouldn't have been impressed with. As we passed the passenger in the learners car started shaking his fist at us and screaming every word in the book.

I personally don't think we were to blame? To start with the learner vehicle was doing 5mph which in my opinion is a dangerous speed to be doing on a roundabout. Then secondly we passed on the inside well within our lane and she was the one that swerved over towards us? So I don't understand why the passenger was so furious at us? Maybe just a normal case of road rage. What do you think?

I have made a diagram of the incident below just incase my text wasn't clear.

Many Thanks,

Matt

 

[jojo]

First Rule of seeing a learner driver, avoid them at all costs!

Just for your information, if a collision was to happen in this instance, and no one admitted liability, then it would, in most cases, go 50/50 in the courts. Lane changing on an island is always a grey area when accidents are involved, and irrespective of speed, you really shouldn't be overtaking on an island around the outside lane!

In my opinion of course.

 

[AudiNutta]

First Rule of seeing a learner driver, avoid them at all costs!

Just for your information, if a collision was to happen in this instance, and no one admitted liability, then it would, in most cases, go 50/50 in the courts. Lane changing on an island is always a grey area when accidents are involved, and irrespective of speed, you really shouldn't be overtaking on an island around the outside lane!

In my opinion of course.

I was in both minds mate. My granddad isn't the best of drivers anyway.. I probably check the mirrors 10x as much as he does.. he has a tendency to swerve into other lanes. He gets distracted easily, the main problem being staring at the climate control. My parents are worried because a few weeks ago he ended up swerving into oncoming traffic on a blind bend. That was scary. But I am unsure how I could approach him about it.. I don't want to upset him.

Which is why I said to him about the learner driver going so slow. Half way round the roundabout he started to overtake. However the learner driver still had no reason to cut into the inside lane, as she should have seen us after the shoulder check. And in that situation I would of carried on into the outside lane of the dual carriageway (which is what she did after) just to avoid any mishaps.

 

[c_w]

One major problem with learner cars is the instructor can't drive either, this goes for private Learner cars or stickered-up mobiles, the instructor generally has poor lane discipline. The learner car should have stayed in the outside lane (or inside lane of the roundabout) and exited the roundabout onto the d/c in the outside lane then as soon as possible pull left into the inside lane. Cutting lanes like this is a big hang up of mine on roundabouts. So no you weren't in the wrong.

However there is some grey area as she was on the roundabout before you join (I assume) and could have cut across you if she was exiting the exit before the one you went off at for example. But people who change lanes on roundabouts before an exit onto a d/c for no reason do my head in

 

[Ste_Nova]

you were in the wrong, she was moving to the left before her exit, you shouldn't have entered the roundabout and got in her way

"When taking an exit to the right or going full circle, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

• signal right and approach in the right-hand lane
• keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout
• signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want

"

 

[sidibear]

Ste_Nova is correct as far as I can see, traffic on the roundabout have priority over those entering, and traffic to your right have priority.

 

[Artimus]

Agree with the two above posts!

Maybe the car is too much for him... It's a regular occurrence with older folk! they can afford to buy the car they like the look of, rather than the one they're capable of properly controlling.

My mother-in-law went through 3 Honda HRV's because her husband, who is 6' 3, has age related disabilities and needs easy access! She was having yearly minor accidents & it wasn't until we took them out in our '08 Polo that they realised he could fit comfortably into a much smaller car. They bought a Honda Jazz and haven't looked back.

 

[c_w]

Whilst I agree partly with the posts above I would never change lanes on a roundabout like this, not even on exit; there's no need for it on to a d/c.

Here's an example that is not covered by the posts above;

Same dual carriageway setup on all approaches as in that diagram.
Two cars are on the same direction both wanting to go straight ahead, both enter the roundabout at the same time. At what point would it be "correct" for the car on the inner lane of the roundabout to cut across to the outer lane? Anyone who does this is a *****!

 

[Ste_Nova]

she was driving to the highway code, not common sence if the roundabout had markings or signs showing it was a 2 lane exit and entry she could have stayed where she was

 

[Ste_Nova]

also......
"[h=4]187[/h]In all cases watch out for and give plenty of room to

• pedestrians who may be crossing the approach and exit roads
• traffic crossing in front of you on the roundabout, especially vehicles intending to leave by the next exit

"

 

[Artimus]

Whilst I agree partly with the posts above I would never change lanes on a roundabout like this, not even on exit; there's no need for it on to a d/c.

Here's an example that is not covered by the posts above;

Same dual carriageway setup on all approaches as in that diagram.
Two cars are on the same direction both wanting to go straight ahead, both enter the roundabout at the same time. At what point would it be "correct" for the car on the inner lane of the roundabout to cut across to the outer lane? ...

It's not covered because it's not what happened.

In reality, it's rare for two cars to enter a round-a-bout at exactly the same time, and that's a different scenario to the OP's example, but in that case, common sense & due care need to be exercised ..which seems to be lacking in many drivers.

 

[Greeny233]

I am under the impression if it is a dual carriage way exit off the round about then if you are in lane 2 on the round about then you exit into lane 2 of the dual carriage way and don't change lanes on the round about making the learner in the wrong.

 

[Artimus]

I am under the impression if it is a dual carriage way exit off the round about then if you are in lane 2 on the round about then you exit into lane 2 of the dual carriage way and don't change lanes on the round about making the learner in the wrong.

Lol. This reminds me of an episode of The Simpsons I remember seeing! They came to London, Homer drove onto his first round-a-bout and couldn't exit it because cars were running around the outside & he couldn't change lane - hilarious.

 

[c_w]

It's not covered because it's not what happened.

In reality, it's rare for two cars to enter a round-a-bout at exactly the same time

Happens all the time! Any dual carriage way on to and off a roundabout.

 

[AudiNutta]

One major problem with learner cars is the instructor can't drive either, this goes for private Learner cars or stickered-up mobiles, the instructor generally has poor lane discipline. The learner car should have stayed in the outside lane (or inside lane of the roundabout) and exited the roundabout onto the d/c in the outside lane then as soon as possible pull left into the inside lane. Cutting lanes like this is a big hang up of mine on roundabouts. So no you weren't in the wrong.

However there is some grey area as she was on the roundabout before you join (I assume) and could have cut across you if she was exiting the exit before the one you went off at for example. But people who change lanes on roundabouts before an exit onto a d/c for no reason do my head in

Due to the speed she was going I could quite confidently say she was on the roundabout before us. I couldn't have done much more as to telling my grandfather as at the end of the day he is the driver. But I did warn him in advance. After I warned him about her going so slow his reply was: 'Dont worry she is ok' and that is when he decided to pull out next to her.

 

[AudiNutta]

you were in the wrong, she was moving to the left before her exit, you shouldn't have entered the roundabout and got in her way

"When taking an exit to the right or going full circle, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

• signal right and approach in the right-hand lane
• keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout
• signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want

"

Ok thanks for the great information Problem is I am unsure wether I would be best leaving it be or maybe trying to make a comment on his driving?

 

[AudiNutta]

Agree with the two above posts!

Maybe the car is too much for him... It's a regular occurrence with older folk! they can afford to buy the car they like the look of, rather than the one they're capable of properly controlling.

My mother-in-law went through 3 Honda HRV's because her husband, who is 6' 3, has age related disabilities and needs easy access! She was having yearly minor accidents & it wasn't until we took them out in our '08 Polo that they realised he could fit comfortably into a much smaller car. They bought a Honda Jazz and haven't looked back.

Dont get me wrong he isnt a bad driver. It is just silly mistakes like him getting distracted by the radio and climate control that cause all the little mishaps. One of the reasons why everyone in my family is talking him out of a sat nav. But to be honest the majority of the time I believe I could drive the car better.

 

[AudiNutta]

Whilst I agree partly with the posts above I would never change lanes on a roundabout like this, not even on exit; there's no need for it on to a d/c.

Here's an example that is not covered by the posts above;

Same dual carriageway setup on all approaches as in that diagram.
Two cars are on the same direction both wanting to go straight ahead, both enter the roundabout at the same time. At what point would it be "correct" for the car on the inner lane of the roundabout to cut across to the outer lane? Anyone who does this is a *****!

This was exactly my point as to if we weren't in the wrong. If the learner had paid attention to the signs (based on wether she knew the road. She probably did anyway) she would have seen she was entering onto a dual carriageway. After performing the shoulder check she made eye contact with me and still pulled out. The example you have posted is exactly my thoughts. She had no real reason or benefit to cut us up.

 

[AudiNutta]

I am under the impression if it is a dual carriage way exit off the round about then if you are in lane 2 on the round about then you exit into lane 2 of the dual carriage way and don't change lanes on the round about making the learner in the wrong.

Like a said in my previous post this was my first thoughts. She had no reason or any benefit to her to change lanes. She performed a shoulder check and looked me in the eye and still pulled out. I now understand that we shouldn't have entered the roundabout but the learner driver should have anticipated it and not cut us up.

 

[AudiNutta]

Happens all the time! Any dual carriage way on to and off a roundabout.

As marked on the diagram in the first thread, from the lane and position she was in I am certain she joined the roundabout from that exit. She wasn't on the same dual carriageway as us anyway.

 

[AudiNutta]

Thanks for all your help and advice guys. Really appreciate it :thumbsup:

Do any of you have any ideas on how I could make a comment on how his driving needs to improve without upsetting him? If it was going to upset him I would put up with all the misshaps first.


But personally I put it down to him not having an Audi and buying a Volvo

 

[jojo]

Like a said in my previous post this was my first thoughts. She had no reason or any benefit to her to change lanes. She performed a shoulder check and looked me in the eye and still pulled out. I now understand that we shouldn't have entered the roundabout but the learner driver should have anticipated it and not cut us up.

It's a common sense thing, she did the shoulder check to check her 'blind spot', I presume at the point of eye contact, she was ahead of your car, irrespective of what speed she is doing? It's common sense not to overtake on the left, as it's where your the blindspot is at it's worse for the driver on the right, so you generally give way to these drivers.

 

[AudiNutta]

It's a common sense thing, she did the shoulder check to check her 'blind spot', I presume at the point of eye contact, she was ahead of your car, irrespective of what speed she is doing? It's common sense not to overtake on the left, as it's where your the blindspot is at it's worse for the driver on the right, so you generally give way to these drivers.

At the point of eye contact we were half past her. I am going to ask my mum to speak to him about his driving. One day it will end up with us in an accident. There aren't many times we got out in the car and have any less than 5 incidents of him getting distracted.

 

[Artimus]

"L" plates on a car mean the driver may make unpredictable manoeuvres and we should be on our guard against the possibility. "P" plates mean pretty much the same thing ...the driver is still learning even though they've now passed their test, and is asking for your patience. Give them more room than you would a driver with no plates.

..and Yes, talk to your Mum! if you're having that many close calls per trip, it probably won't be long before someone gets hurt.

 

[Ste_Nova]

his driving isn't bad, i would have done the same thing but floored it, meaning i could easily get ahead of her, i would also have been covering the horn and the brake

is the volvo auto or manual?

 

[StateOfPlay]

I think you should leave it mate, it was something any one of us do at some point and it was at low speed so leave the guy be.

If he constantly drives bad, that is a different matter, but don't hang the guy out to dry because of one incident.

 

[AudiNutta]

"L" plates on a car mean the driver may make unpredictable manoeuvres and we should be on our guard against the possibility. "P" plates mean pretty much the same thing ...the driver is still learning even though they've now passed their test, and is asking for your patience. Give them more room than you would a driver with no plates.

..and Yes, talk to your Mum! if you're having that many close calls per trip, it probably won't be long before someone gets hurt.

My mum said she will speak to my grandmother as we dont want to upset him. So my grandmother is the best person to speak to him about it.

 

[AudiNutta]

his driving isn't bad, i would have done the same thing but floored it, meaning i could easily get ahead of her, i would also have been covering the horn and the brake

is the volvo auto or manual?

Manual Volvo. It is a fairly new car so he is still getting used to the gearbox. He isnt driving the car enough. He is changing by the time he hits 1500rpm and he needs to drive a diesel. It is a six speed so that doesn't help. Gear ratios aren't very big anyway but he isn't revving it enough. There are quite a few floors in his driving style

 

[AudiNutta]

I think you should leave it mate, it was something any one of us do at some point and it was at low speed so leave the guy be.

If he constantly drives bad, that is a different matter, but don't hang the guy out to dry because of one incident.

It is a re-occuring thing. Like I said in a previous post a few weeks ago he was constantly looking at the climate control not the road. He swerved out into oncoming traffic on a blind bend! That was a bit scary!
He often tends to swerve in the car because he gets distracted so much. I worry about his driving. Whenever he turns round a curb I am worrying about him catching the alloys.

Various times he has nearly taken bumpers off trying to park on completely the wrong angle! Luckily he has reversing sensors! He cant park straight either (admittedly the Volvos aint that easily to park due to the curving away rear end.)
I told him to park it straight in front of our house the other day and I had to re-park it for him because he done it so badly.

I have spoken to my parents about it and they are now worried since he swerved out into oncoming traffic. You will never stop him from driving, he hates being told he is wrong about anything.. very stubborn. So it is just advising him!

 

[colicabcadam]

depending on timing, what you did could be classed as under taking......

as a biker i don;t risk it with learners at all and the fact that i love my car so much, i don't risk it in that either

by pulling out with the learner a mere 5 seconds of time was saved lol

it looks like you potentially forced the learner to join the exit on the right lane, it should have been joined on the left lane.

 

[AudiNutta]

depending on timing, what you did could be classed as under taking......

as a biker i don;t risk it with learners at all and the fact that i love my car so much, i don't risk it in that either

by pulling out with the learner a mere 5 seconds of time was saved lol

it looks like you potentially forced the learner to join the exit on the right lane, it should have been joined on the left lane.

If there was a copper behind us we would have been pulled. I said to my father I wasn't going to tell my grandfather STOP.. because at the end of the day he is driving the car. I warned him in plenty of time of the slow learner driver and he still continued out to pass the girl.

Where abouts are you from? I love your Ducati My father has a CBR6. Yours looks an absolute beast. So does your KTM Do you ride SM competitively? My dads mate rides SM. Unsure how far he travels to race but his name is Sam Williams. :thumbsup:

 

[StateOfPlay]

It is a re-occuring thing. Like I said in a previous post a few weeks ago he was constantly looking at the climate control not the road. He swerved out into oncoming traffic on a blind bend! That was a bit scary!
He often tends to swerve in the car because he gets distracted so much. I worry about his driving. Whenever he turns round a curb I am worrying about him catching the alloys.

!

Did he used to drive a Black Cab?

 

[AudiNutta]

Did he used to drive a Black Cab?

LOL. No not that I know of