Limp Mode - 17965 - Charge Pressure Control: Positive Deviation - Live Data

[ruffrida]

Hi All,

A few of you might have seen my last thread - http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/a3-s3-...er-4th-5th-gear-around-1800rpm-limp-mode.html.

Well after numerous times been asked what did vag-com said i decided to run some live data, please see below and let me know what you think;

Sunday	5	August	2012	17:15:27:10074	VCDS Version: Beta 11.3.0	Data version: 20110801
038 906 012 A	1.9l R4 EDC 0000SG 2801
	Group A:	'008				Group B:	'009			Group C:	'011
		Engine speed	I.Q. Driver's req.	I.Q. via rpm(Torq)	I.Q. via air mass		Engine speed	Injection Quantity	Inj. limit		Engine speed	Specified MAP	Actual MAP	D.cycle MAP v.
	TIME	rpm	40.0-42.0 mg/H	35.5-36.5 mg/H	36.0-39.0 mg/H	TIME	rpm	CC active	during a/t shift	TIME	rpm	1850-1950 mbar	1700-2080 mbar	45-95%
Marker	STAMP	/min	mg/str	mg/str	mg/str	STAMP	/min	mg/str	mg/str	STAMP	/min	mbar	mbar	%
	0.73	1764	45.4	40	33.4	0.03	1512	0	51	0.35	1659	1805.4	1683	41
	1.89	2016	44.8	42	41	1.11	1848	0	51	1.5	1953	1948.2	2050.2	54.6
	3.03	2310	44.6	41.8	42.4	2.27	2121	0	51	2.65	2226	1948.2	2407.2	83.3
	4.17	2604	44.4	41.2	42.4	3.41	2415	0	51	3.79	2520	1948.2	2519.4	94.4
	5.35	2877	44	41	41.4	4.6	2709	0	51	4.97	2793	1948.2	2519.4	94.4
	6.49	3150	43.8	40.6	40.8	5.74	2982	0	51	6.11	3066	1948.2	2509.2	94.4
	7.66	3402	43.6	40.2	40.4	6.9	3213	0	51	7.27	3318	1948.2	2529.6	94.4
	8.81	3528	43.4	39.8	31.4	8.06	3486	0	51	8.43	3507	1948.2	2468.4	92.4
	9.95	3591	43.4	39.8	30	9.19	3549	0	51	9.57	3570	1948.2	1978.8	92.4
	11.09	3654	43.2	39.6	30.4	10.33	3612	0	51	10.71	3633	1948.2	1999.2	92.4

Sunday	5	August	2012	17:12:34:10074	VCDS Version: Beta 11.3.0	Data version: 20110801
038 906 012 A	1.9l R4 EDC 0000SG 2801
	Group A:	'001				Group B:	'015				Group C:	'003
		Engine speed	Injection Quantity	Mod. Piston Displ.	Coolant Temp.		Engine speed	Inj Qty (actual)	Fuel Consumption	Inj Qty requested		Engine speed	MAF (specified)	MAF (actual)	EGR duty cycle
	TIME	870-950 rpm	2.2-9.0 mg/H	1.45-2.0 V	80-110*C	TIME	rpm			(accelerator)	TIME	870-950 rpm	230-370 mg/H	230-370 mg/H	40-75%
Marker	STAMP	/min	mg/str	V	°C	STAMP	/min	mg/str	l/h	mg/str	STAMP	/min	mg/str	mg/str	%
	0.35	2814	41	3.56	-19.8	0.72	2898	41	17.2	44	0.03	2667	850	855	4.8
	1.48	3045	40.8	3.66	-21.6	1.86	3129	40.6	18.5	43.8	1.1	2982	850	815	4.8
	2.62	3276	40.4	3.76	-23.4	3.02	3360	40.2	19.7	43.6	2.24	3213	850	785	4.8
	3.78	3444	18.6	2.42	-24.3	4.18	3465	18.4	9.3	43.4	3.4	3423	850	780	4.8
	4.94	3507	18.2	2.4	-24.3	5.32	3528	18.2	9.4	43.4	4.56	3486	850	585	4.8
	6.08	3549	18	2.32	-26.1	6.46	3570	18	9.4	43.4	5.7	3528	850	585	4.8
	7.22	3591	18	2.32	-27	7.61	3591	2.6	3	2.6	6.84	3570	850	585	4.8

Sunday	5	August	2012	17:08:28:10074	VCDS Version: Beta 11.3.0	Data version: 20110801
038 906 012 A	1.9l R4 EDC 0000SG 2801
	Group A:	'001				Group B:	'010				Group C:	'023
		Engine speed	Injection Quantity	Mod. Piston Displ.	Coolant Temp.		MAF Sensor	Atmos. Pressure	Manifold Pressure	Throttle		Absolute Pres.	Absolute Pres.	Duty Cycle	Absolute Pres.
	TIME	870-950 rpm	2.2-9.0 mg/H	1.45-2.0 V	80-110*C	TIME	230-370 mg/H	Sensor-f96-	MAP sensor-G71-	%Throttle	TIME
Marker	STAMP	/min	mg/str	V	°C	STAMP	mg/str	mbar	mbar	%	STAMP	mbar	mbar	%	mbar
	0.73	2226	42	3.36	-27	0.03	650	979.2	1805.4	100	0.35	1948.2	2203.2	70.9	979.2
	1.87	2499	41.4	3.46	-27	1.11	840	979.2	2458.2	100	1.49	1948.2	2509.2	92	979.2
	3.04	2772	41	3.62	-27	2.25	870	979.2	2550	100	2.63	1948.2	2550	94.4	979.2
	4.21	3024	40.8	3.64	-27	3.46	835	979.2	2550	100	3.83	1948.2	2539.8	94.4	979.2
	5.35	3276	40.4	3.72	-25.2	4.59	795	979.2	2539.8	100	4.97	1948.2	2539.8	94.4	979.2
	6.51	3528	40	3.84	-24.3	5.73	790	979.2	2539.8	100	6.11	1948.2	2539.8	94.4	979.2
	7.7	3591	17.8	2.34	-24.3	6.89	685	979.2	2499	100	7.3	1948.2	2193	92.4	979.2
	8.85	3654	17.6	2.34	-23.4	8.07	580	979.2	2009.4	100	8.46	1948.2	1989	92.4	979.2
	9.99	3696	17.4	2.3	-23.4	9.23	585	979.2	2009.4	100	9.61	1948.2	2029.8	92.4	979.2
	11.15	3738	17.2	2.32	-23.4	10.37	570	979.2	2050.2	100	10.77	1948.2	2050.2	92.4	979.2
	12.33	3360	0	1.18	-23.4	11.53	585	979.2	2060.4	100	11.94	1948.2	2060.4	92.4	979.2
	14.7	2730	20.8	2.48	-18.9	15.1	435	979.2	1662.6	0	15.5	1111.8	1387.2	92.4	979.2

I have spent many years under car bonnets but when it comes to stuff like this i am little lost.

 

[<tuffty/>]

Not personally done much with soot chuckers but first observations show the actual boost to be way more that the requested boost...

This would explain the fault code you are getting... not got any experience on these but I believe it could be due to the VNT vanes sticking which I know is a common issue on these...
17965/P1557/005463 - Ross-Tech Wiki

<tuffty/>

 

[badger5]

whats the betting the vnt is sticking/stuck

common as... sadly

 

[ruffrida]

Unfortunately gents, Turbo has been reconditioned so no sticky VNT here!! Please see link to my other thread above

 

[badger5]

Unfortunately gents, Turbo has been reconditioned so no sticky VNT here!! Please see link to my other thread above

non functional valve acutating vnt then...

 

[ruffrida]

Would that be the same as, the actuator is either set wrong or not working properly?

 

[Cobra88]

Hi Adam

Deffo boosting way too much for a std 110 should be 1850 mb max requested

can you take a pic of your N75 valve and post it in here or in the main thread.
And the N75 valve you bought was for a 110 not for a 130 ASZ ???
i found mine boosted all over the shop with a pd model's N75 Valve

Regards
Rick

 

[ruffrida]

Hi Rick,

Took the number of the old one and replaced with VW AUDI SKODA SEAT PRESSURE SENSOR VALVE 1J0906627 1J0 906 627 | eBay

Can still get a pic if needed.

I am thinking the actuator needs winding in (turning down)

Cheers

 

[Cobra88]

Hi Adam

if you shorten the rod you will make the boost higher i think.

get a pic of your N75 like i took showing where each hose goes.
Are you 100% sure you have no leaks now ?

Regards
Rick

 

[aragorn]

It could be a faulty boost sensor. Rare, but it does happen.

If your positive the turbo and actuator/vnt system are working as they should then try another boost sensor on it, or compare the logged boost with a boost guage to see if they match.

 

[Cobra88]

Hi aragorn

Do you mean map sensor ?

Regards
Rick

 

[aragorn]

aye!

 

[ruffrida]

Hi Rick,

All hoses / pipes are connected the same as yours now, been over and over the pipes / hoses convinced the is now leak.

A friend mentioned last night about the boost sensor, said it was common on vauxhalls when they had been stood, but rare other wise, photo will be uploaded after lunch just to make sure,

Manifold MAP absolute air pressure boost sensor 038906051,1yr warr,Next day deli | eBay

Would it worth removing the new maf and trying the old one just in case (plucking at straws here)

 

[aragorn]

Its not a MAF issue.

A faulty MAF wouldnt cause massive overboost.

At this point you either a) do have massive overboost, pointing the finger at a faulty turbo, or faulty control systems (ie N75, vac pipes, actuator etc) or b) you dont have massive overboost, but the ECU thinks you do because the MAP sensor is faulty.

A boost guage would help diagnose, or just slot in a new MAP sensor and see what happens.

Dont buy some dodgy ebay tat though, get a proper bosch one.

 

[Cobra88]

aragorn makes sense.

there must be a boost leak mate
my betting is the pipe running from turbo compressor side to the plastic pancake pike under the nearside wing.
I think it's rubbed on the driveshaft same as mine did.

Regards
Rick

 

[Cobra88]

Adam

please don't buy a Made in China Map sensor

Make sure you get a Bosch one (think Darkside might have one)
Regards
Rick

 

[ruffrida]

Pics as requested,

As you can see, non return valve goes to brake hose, Right one to the air box, and the other to the actuator.

 

[Cobra88]

yep thats correct mate

that N75 valve is 1J0 906 627 A ?

thats what mine shows
Regards
Rick

 

[ruffrida]

Yep 1JO 906 627A same as me

So its back to either map sensor or actuator, still not convinced it is adjusted right.

This might be a bit random but i have only just noticed the stop screw for the vnt is no where near the arm, is this right?

 

[Cobra88]

your duty cycles where showing about 94.5 % i think which is where mine are for actuator adjustment
but that might be because you have a leak or map sensor error.

fix the sensor and or leak and then re log before adjusting the actuator.

thats how i understand it anyway.
someone like Badger5 will know a lot more

Regards
Rick

 

[ruffrida]

your duty cycles where showing about 94.5 % i think which is where mine are for actuator adjustment
but that might be because you have a leak or map sensor error.

fix the sensor and or leak and then re log before adjusting the actuator.

thats how i understand it anyway.
someone like Badger5 will know a lot more

Regards
Rick

 

[<tuffty/>]

If the actuator has been over tightened then this would produce more uncontrolled boost

Typically set the preload of an actuator to be around 3 turns on from holding the wastegate shut...

<tuffty/>

 

[ruffrida]

Is the MAP Sensor located in the lower intercooler pipe ?

If so i ma need have a better look at this as this may be the be all and end all, but would that of not shown when scanned?

 

[Cobra88]

Hi Adam

on the Diesels it's on the top of the intercooler mate
should have shown when scanned but you had too many codes initially.

Regards
Rick

Regards
Rick

 

[ruffrida]

Hi Adam

on the Diesels it's on the top of the intercooler mate
should have shown when scanned but you had too many codes initially.

Regards
Rick

Rick

Hi Rick,

That sounds like Bumper off job then?

Cheers

Adam
Regards

 

[Cobra88]

not sure mate

i had my bomper off when i changed mine for a pd130 item (3 bar) but you need the map adjusted to use a 130 sensor.

and i already gave away my original 110 map sensor to a mate with a golf.
Regards
Rick

 

[ruffrida]

Cheers Rick

Just found this VNT TDI turbo: how to adjust actuator & cure boost problems - uk-mkivs

 

[Cobra88]

Thats a brilliant guide for us oil burners

Regards
Rick

 

[ruffrida]

looking at this; Adjusting the rod length is necessary if you are getting errattic boost problems, if your duty cycle is above 80% at 4,000rpm then it needs made longer, and if your duty cycle is below 70% at 4,000rpm it needs made shorter. between 70-80% is ok, the closer to 80% the better. I would say my actuator is defo not right, i am getting 92% at 3600rpm.

Nice thread though, like Rick said it is great for us Oil burners & soot chuckers

 

[Cobra88]

I just put my BBS reps in the classifieds

need to get a decent clutch

Regards
Rick

 

[ruffrida]

I just put my BBS reps in the classifieds

need to get a decent clutch

Regards
Rick

 

[Pedrosousa]

VNT must be fully closed @ +- (-0.65mbar) check if that's correct with a vacuum pump with gauge

 

[ruffrida]

Adam

please don't buy a Made in China Map sensor

Make sure you get a Bosch one (think Darkside might have one)
Regards
Rick

Will defo not be getting a china map sensor fella, used that as a example.

Darkside? Take it thats a ASN memeber??

 

[ruffrida]

Cheers Rick

Just found this VNT TDI turbo: how to adjust actuator & cure boost problems - uk-mkivs

Had a reply from the guy who started this thread, he said the actuator looks to be set wrong and the rod needs to be made longer (lefty) to reduce the amount of boost which is being generated, once this has been done i should notice a massive difference and stated it could be at a turn & a half out, dont know how he gets to that, but will be on it tomorrow!

 

[Cobra88]

Hi Adam

Darkside Developments - Home
speak to Ryan

Regards
Rick

 

[ruffrida]

VNT must be fully closed @ +- (-0.65mbar) check if that's correct with a vacuum pump with gauge

Cheers Pedrosousa, will be getting a new vac gauge this weekend, always handy to have.

 

[Cobra88]

I did say the rod needed lengthening but you said it flat when you did that

Regards
Rick

 

[ruffrida]

Hi Adam

Darkside Developments - Home
speak to Ryan

Regards
Rick

Rick comes good again, nice 1.

Just had a look on their website and bookmarked them as i will be defo using these guys.

S**T the bed how nice is that turbo kit Darkside GTB Turbo Kit for 1.9 8v TDI Engines - Darkside Developments Nice price also, but i bet the difference it makes, out does the price.

Cheers

Adam

 

[ruffrida]

I did say the rod needed lengthening but you said it flat when you did that

Regards
Rick

I know i know, should of listened to you earlier, but it did feel a little flat at low revs, going take it out further and see how it goes

 

[ruffrida]

So close sooooo close!!

Right, yesterday adjusted the actuator out by 1 and half turns and it is so close to been back to normal, it will pull all day now above 2000rpm, but still get to about 2400 in 5th, big hill, it still limp modes, i am thinking another half or full turn and it will be there.

Be all and end all, Conclusion!

So i reckon the be all and end all is, when it was first stood the vanes must of stuck causing the limp mode.
Then turbo was reconditioned without the actuator been set correctly (as i also noticed other marks on it from previous adjustment)
Hay-presto nearly done!!

Cheers for all your input and being so patient, thank you all, cant fault ASN members,

Nice 1