W3STY's Progress Thread

What colour S3 Avus for the Track?

  • Porsche Guards Red

    Votes: 43 57.3%

  • Kawasaki Green

    Votes: 32 42.7%
  • Total voters
    75
and, i think the fact you are now over maxing the injectors by 26% is in a way awesome, and shows what can be achieved with the setup you've got. i think its fair to say you've accomplished your goal already.
i just hope for you, and other people that follow this route that its reliable.
 
Thanks guys that makes sense. Only thing to bear in mind is that will a 4 bar FPR give me enough of an increase through my injectors. I think uprating the FPR is the easiest way forward as like Bill mentioned, the ECU is used to a 386cc injector so If I start plopping in bigger injectors it might become a bit more messy.

My fuel pump is brand new so should cope with the 4 bar FPR fine and if I need to I can always run an inline pump to compensate but that will be another couple of hundred squid.

I'll go and do this log in a bit and see what Bill thinks. If a FPR will make much difference then I can get hold of one of those easily and it's a 5 min job to change.
 
badger5 said:
Options to improve this are a 3.5 or 4bar fpr (so long as fuel pump is up to it and not old and tired)
I'm not sure how the revo will accomodate the additional fixed fuel pressure, as on cruise and idle it will see increased fuel, and adapt it back out, but when on wot... this adapted out amount may still seem like its working as before and be of no help... Hmmm. Need to think what would be occuring. ECU is programmed to know it has an injector size of 386cc....
Click to expand...
^keep what bill said in mind though, it might not be as simple as putting one in, well, it wont. so probably best you experiment with a fpr when you go and see him.

Westy said:
Thanks guys that makes sense. Only thing to bear in mind is that will a 4 bar FPR give me enough of an increase through my injectors. I think uprating the FPR is the easiest way forward as like Bill mentioned, the ECU is used to a 386cc injector so If I start plopping in bigger injectors it might become a bit more messy.

My fuel pump is brand new so should cope with the 4 bar FPR fine and if I need to I can always run an inline pump to compensate but that will be another couple of hundred squid.

I'll go and do this log in a bit and see what Bill thinks. If a FPR will make much difference then I can get hold of one of those easily and it's a 5 min job to change.
Click to expand...
it will be good for you (cheaper and easier) if the 4bar reg works. im guessing you want to avoid the cost of a custom map?? so injectors are kind of out of the question.
 
I've got a 4 bar reg that won't be needed once I'm mapped and only done a few thousand miles, paid £45 for it but will sort something out if you want matey ;)

Only a 5min job to do as well

Only downside is dont think will have it ready for as soon as you need it :(
 
superkarl said:
it will be good for you (cheaper and easier) if the 4bar reg works. im guessing you want to avoid the cost of a custom map?? so injectors are kind of out of the question.
Click to expand...

Yes mate, trying to avoid custom map really as it wont be worth the cost. Would be nice to just have this running as quick and as stable as I can get it.

Anyway here's the log data Bill requested. Did 3 runs:

RUN1-001031118.jpg


RUN2-001031118.jpg


RUN3-001031118.jpg
 
Westy said:
Can you explain to me how a 4 bar FPR will help? Will I not need larger injectors too as they are bein asked to work well beyond their means?
Click to expand...

more fuel pressure = more fuel for the same injector open time...
4bar add's ~15% more fueling


I see from the logs its already adding 10-20% fueling to achieve lambda..........
afr on revo are richer than I set them on my custom maps... I never ask for 0.7x lambdas

as an experiment worth getting hold of a 3.5 or 4bar fpr and dropping it in and see what the adaptions make of it.
whats block 032 sat at currently?
 
Last edited:
badger5 said:
more fuel pressure = more fuel for the same injector open time...
4bar add's ~15% more fueling


I see from the logs its already adding 10-20% fueling to achieve lambda..........
afr on revo are richer than I set them on my custom maps... I never ask for 0.7x lambdas

as an experiment worth getting hold of a 3.5 or 4bar fpr and dropping it in and see what the adaptions make of it.
whats block 032 sat at currently?
Click to expand...

Ok cheers Bill I'll try and get hold of an FPR to test. I'll check block 032 later, what does that block show?

From those logs am I ok to drive this car hard or should I be taking it easy?
 
Westy said:
Ok cheers Bill I'll try and get hold of an FPR to test. I'll check block 032 later, what does that block show?

From those logs am I ok to drive this car hard or should I be taking it easy?
Click to expand...
actual fueling is ok.. 031..
we now know that the ecu is using its adaption abilities to achieve this, and the injectors being max'd is part of this

032 is fuel trims.. the learnt fueling adaption since last faultcode reset

makes you wonder for all those who claim they already have 280bhp-300bhp+ on "some" rollers, will also be max'd on their duty cycles...
 
badger5 said:
actual fueling is ok.. 031..
we now know that the ecu is using its adaption abilities to achieve this, and the injectors being max'd is part of this

032 is fuel trims.. the learnt fueling adaption since last faultcode reset

makes you wonder for all those who claim they already have 280bhp-300bhp+ on "some" rollers, will also be max'd on their duty cycles...
Click to expand...

Oh bum! I've been resetting the engine fault codes every couple of days due to the EVAP system error I get now i've removed the charcoal can so the 032 figures might not be very helpful at the moment :(

I'll drive it about a bit and wont reset the code if the CEL comes on just so we get some decent readings.
 
Westy said:
Oh bum! I've been resetting the engine fault codes every couple of days due to the EVAP system error I get now i've removed the charcoal can so the 032 figures might not be very helpful at the moment :(

I'll drive it about a bit and wont reset the code if the CEL comes on just so we get some decent readings.
Click to expand...

A custom map will fix all these issues you know... no more CEL from stuff you have removed and injectors/4bar dialled in correctly... plus tuned fully to take advantage of all the work you have done with the manifold/large port/wmi etc...

<tuffty/>
 
Westicles, I've got a 4 bar fpr sat in the garage that you're welcome to try. Drop me a text with your address and I'll post it tomorrow or saturday :)
 
<tuffty/> said:
A custom map will fix all these issues you know... no more CEL from stuff you have removed and injectors/4bar dialled in correctly... plus tuned fully to take advantage of all the work you have done with the manifold/large port/wmi etc...

<tuffty/>
Click to expand...

It's definitely something to consider it's just a shame this has reared its head just as i'm about to move house and car money will be dramatically reduced :( hence why I'm trying to make do with what I currently have.

If I can get this setup to fuel ok and not run major high EGTs I'll be happy for the time being as it does feel quick through the gears.

Found this info on the TT forum from Awesome about running the 4 bar FPR with revo stage2:

AwesomeJohn said:
It is fitted with a 3 bar FPR as standard.

According to Revo a 4 bar FPR is a waste of money, the mapping is set to run with the standard FPR on the 210 and 225 cars.

If you fit the 4 bar one it will over fuel the car by about 25%! The ECU with it's correction factors will correct this to about 12% still over fueling. Apparently this will not enhance your performance in any way.

I do know quite a few people who tell me the car feels better with one fitted though!!!!!
yabb_undecided.gif
Click to expand...
 
AwesomeJohn said:
It is fitted with a 3 bar FPR as standard.

According to Revo a 4 bar FPR is a waste of money, the mapping is set to run with the standard FPR on the 210 and 225 cars.

If you fit the 4 bar one it will over fuel the car by about 25%! The ECU with it's correction factors will correct this to about 12% still over fueling. Apparently this will not enhance your performance in any way.

I do know quite a few people who tell me the car feels better with one fitted though!!!!!
yabb_undecided.gif
Click to expand...

Well... he is correct to a degree... just fitting a 4bar doesn't enhance the performance as such but... in your case it will provide a degree of fuelling headroom and the higher pressure does atomise the fuel better so this can lead to better idle and a better overall air/fuel mix...

Obviously at the expense of extra strain on the std pump but yours is a new one so will be fine for the foreseeable future

<tuffty/>
 
Bit off subject and sorry for spamming, but I'm now getting an eml for my evap which has been coded out? It seems to have started to occur after unplugging the resistor briefly, and reseting fault codes through vcds as well as a tb reset? Any ideas?
Cheers
 
it is likely a different resistance value.. a connection issue.
n80 must bee seen... incorrect flow is what would have been coded out, although I dont remember doing this? (could be me.. memory of a goldfish and all that)
 
<tuffty/> said:
Well... he is correct to a degree... just fitting a 4bar doesn't enhance the performance as such but... in your case it will provide a degree of fuelling headroom and the higher pressure does atomise the fuel better so this can lead to better idle and a better overall air/fuel mix...

Obviously at the expense of extra strain on the std pump but yours is a new one so will be fine for the foreseeable future

<tuffty/>
Click to expand...

4 bar is definitely the thing to try next then. I can always get an inline pump at some point in the future if needs be.

More info I've found:

VAGCHECK said:
Just for clarity in regards occasional instances when we have deemed a 4bar FPR will be necessary for a particular modified 225 & its hardware (stock K04) if we are too >[/COLOR]

1. Extract maximum safe performance
2. Maintain well managed EGT’s
3. Avoid totally maxing the injectors out
4. Ensuring EGT protection management (fuel flood) is still possible. (Where applicable)

In regards the 4bar FPR itself & the stock pump, yes it will be tasking the fuel pump more than with the stock 3bar reg that is a given, & we do normally convey this when discussing the options. If its not going to be needed for an individual vehicles tune then all well & good, as of course there is no good reason to place any component under more stress unnecessarily.

The pump will cope with a 4bar reg + reasonable amount of boost providing it is healthy. Unfortunately as these vehicles get older in turn the pumps have also had a long life, & sometimes are already weak & sagging & in this instance fitting a 4bar reg would likely only expedite the pumps demise.

Will it be needed with a stock K04 + full set of popular bolt on mods like intake, TIP, DP, cat/decat, cat back, FMIC etc, well this is dependant on how much air the turbo is able to push, how much boost is asked for by the tune at higher rpm’s, & the tuners desired AFR.

We normally prior advise customers (in instances we think we might see a very high IDC) that we will review/log the vehicle with the stock fuel system before making the call on whether we are going to have to fit & calibrate for a 4bar to comfortably support our AFR targets.

If it can be avoided then we do avoid it (less load on the pump, less cost for the customer etc)

We are however also mindful to be sure the fuel pump is up to it in instances where a 4bar FPR is to be used, & measure/log fuel pressure if there are any doubts at all over the health of the pump.

Ideally it would be a better overall solution to fit & calibrate for larger injectors when the stock injectors cannot flow enough with a 3bar reg, however costs are obviously quite a bit more with this route.

Hope this helps.

Regards
Morgan
Click to expand...
 
I did wonder if it was a connection issue as had pulled it out ( resistor has got little spade connectors soldered on there so could be inserted into oem plug ) to show tam and Westy a couple of weeks ago but have since checked it and all looks ok but now get eml for it?

I've always got a the incorrect flow code but never got an eml from it and think may have jinxed it by telling / showing westy and tam the resistor and happily saying don't get any eml from it...doh :(

Ps sorry for the hijack although slightly relates to one of your issues ;)
 
I'm finding a lot of contradicting info on 4 bar FPRs with Revo Stage2! It seems like the TT boys say it's awaste of time but the Skoda lads are saying it's needed. I even found info on Revo Stage2 products saying it is needed for stage 2:

Revo Technik ECU Tuning Stage 2 Software for 1.8T Audi and Volkswagen Vehicles, Revo, Chip Tuning, Revo Technik Products & Other Performance Aftermarket Auto Parts - North American Motorsports

Yet Revo's own website doesn't mention it as being "required":

Revo | Audi

I suppose it's all down to how the car is running.
 
Not sure why you are researching it mate tbh... facts are you have maxed your injectors... fitting a 4bar while running on your current map will give you a degree of headroom fuelling wise even if adaption will pull a bit out...

If you want it right then its custom map time... you don't need to buy injectors as the 4bar will turn what you have into 440cc's effectively... the custom map will be scaled to suit and adaption won't be trying to pull all the fuel back out...

<tuffty/>
 
<tuffty/> said:
Not sure why you are researching it mate tbh... facts are you have maxed your injectors... fitting a 4bar while running on your current map will give you a degree of headroom fuelling wise even if adaption will pull a bit out...

If you want it right then its custom map time... you don't need to buy injectors as the 4bar will turn what you have into 440cc's effectively... the custom map will be scaled to suit and adaption won't be trying to pull all the fuel back out...

<tuffty/>
Click to expand...

I was only researching as I was wondering if Revo themselves recommend it or not, still not got a proper answer lol.

Plan of action is this:

Fit Prawn's 4 bar and see what the fuelling is doing in VCDS, if all is ok I will leave it as it is for the time being. I will then discuss with Bill availability and costs for a custom map at some point.

I don't want Bill to spend a lot of time and me spend a lot of money on a custom map only for me to then need the same amount of time and money spent remapping it in the future for a BT.
 
Westy said:
I was only researching as I was wondering if Revo themselves recommend it or not, still not got a proper answer lol.

Plan of action is this:

Fit Prawn's 4 bar and see what the fuelling is doing in VCDS, if all is ok I will leave it as it is for the time being. I will then discuss with Bill availability and costs for a custom map at some point.

I don't want Bill to spend a lot of time and me spend a lot of money on a custom map only for me to then need the same amount of time and money spent remapping it in the future for a BT.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a plan... :)

<tuffty/>
 
Pending what BT thinking of as for instance was going for gt28 and went for 550cc injectors on a custom map now then mapping won't be anywhere near as difficult when swapping to BT as been discussing a simular situ with bill at the mo about daves TT with future spec for upgrades as probably will go with a custom map with 550cc injectors with stage 2 spec hardware so costs are lower for hybrid ir other future spec?
May be able to do something simular? ;)
 
Westy said:
I'm finding a lot of contradicting info on 4 bar FPRs with Revo Stage2! It seems like the TT boys say it's awaste of time but the Skoda lads are saying it's needed. I even found info on Revo Stage2 products saying it is needed for stage 2:

Revo Technik ECU Tuning Stage 2 Software for 1.8T Audi and Volkswagen Vehicles, Revo, Chip Tuning, Revo Technik Products & Other Performance Aftermarket Auto Parts - North American Motorsports

Yet Revo's own website doesn't mention it as being "required":

Revo | Audi

I suppose it's all down to how the car is running.
Click to expand...

K03 cars needs it K04 cars dont - REVO

end of

thats the revo spiel

Remeber... these are stage 2, generic remaps, and when revo did these, it was'nt on cars running higher flowing tips or manifolds.... so the goal posts have moved....... and this is where custom maps come into play

If you plan on a BT at a later date... an option is custom map on larger injectors now, so when BT comes, if it comes, the injector scaling is already done, and you wont be paying full wack for another custom map..
 
badger5 said:
If you plan on a BT at a later date... an option is custom map on larger injectors now, so when BT comes, if it comes, the injector scaling is already done, and you wont be paying full wack for another custom map..
Click to expand...

Ok, so what size injectors will be the intermediate between my K04 and a possible GT BT in the future?

EDIT- Just saw Stacey say 550cc, is this the recommendation then?
 
StaceyS3 said:
Think it'll depend on what size gt as there's a wide range of "big turbo" gt's ;)
Click to expand...

badger5 said:
need to be more specific on the turbo fella..

620-870 ranges depending on flow of turbo chosen..
Click to expand...

I've not thought that far ahead yet not to mention I have zero knowledge of BT setups! :)

If I say 550cc injectors what would be the GT turbos I'd be limited to and what sort of power would I be looking at. I can relate to power ;)
 
I use 550's on k04 hybrids... and they run 85% IDC... for low 300s - thats a clue..
620cc region.... ok for high 300's
 
4 bar FPR in the post this morning :) Look forward to hearing how it works for you dude :)

If it works, you can buy it :p
 
Good stuff Fred now that's service ;) friends

If your cruising about racking some miles up your more than welcome to pop to mine :)
 
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