Prawn and BigAls A3 Track Car

Westy said:
I'm hoping that water methanol and a shed load of timing will make the difference.

Is WMI cars something you seen much of on your rollers? Be interesting to see what the gains are from it. Maybe something for Prawn to consider in the future too :eyebrows:
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We are adopting the KISS principal
 
sportstractor said:
Keep It Simple, Stupid
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StaceyS3 said:
Ahhh now I feel really stupid :)
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Not laughed this hard in a good while!

Thanks lads :p

Westy: WMI is something that's only realy of use to extract more power from a setup / lower intake temps from a heat pump.

In our current state of tune, the turbo produces very little heat, the manifold didn't even glow on power runs at AMD, and inlet temps are very low indeed.

Perhaps when it's got rods and the boost is turned up it might benefit from WMI, but to be honest I think even then it won't be needed to see a consistent 330bhp, only perhaps if we try to go above 330, which we won't be doing :)

Less to go wrong that way, and unlike your ME7.5, the extra timing has to be mapped in, it can't be dialed in on unisettings.
 
Prawn said:
remember 300bhp in mine is the same power: weight as 400 in yours :p
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I was only gaining a little bit so believe this!

I don't think that WMI is a particularly good day to day option, I destroyed tanks with not over the top nice fun drives and then when your driving around normally your constantly trying to not make the little green led come on. For full banzai-highest-state-of-tune for overtaking Porsches on the ring then yeah but have it switchable to that mode IMO.
 
but you destroy eveything dane :p

I would have to disagree

K04 cars should run wmi as std... they just run so so hot normally..
 
badger5 said:
but you destroy eveything dane :p

I would have to disagree

K04 cars should run wmi as std... they just run so so hot normally..
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Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha - so true!
 
In my view, its a bodge.

If they run hot, then you should be looking to fix the reasons WHY they're running hot rather than putting a sticking plaster over it!

I wouldnt want to use it on a daily driver, and i certainly wouldnt be mapping in timing for it, as thats just asking for melted pistons when it stops working.
 
badger5 said:
but you destroy eveything dane :p

I would have to disagree

K04 cars should run wmi as std... they just run so so hot normally..
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Danes car is so stupidly quick it makes the world go backwards! haha.

Be interesting to see what you think of mine heat wise Bill, in it's low state of tune, at AMD on sunday, even after 6 back to back power runs, the manifold runners wern't even glowing, only the last 2'' of the collector started to glow a dull orange. I'm sure the turbo itself was glowing, but the manifold wasn't anything like Wellys 340bhp setup because it's just not being pushed hard at all in it's current form.

If it came down to having 325bhp without WMI or 345 bhp with WMI, I'd suffer the 20bhp loss and not run it I think, just seems like hassle and something else to keep on top of.

Can't wait for Sunday to see what she makes at Badger5, Just JKM left to try and I'll have had it on dynos north south east and west!
 
Dane said:
I was only gaining a little bit so believe this!

I don't think that WMI is a particularly good day to day option, I destroyed tanks with not over the top nice fun drives and then when your driving around normally your constantly trying to not make the little green led come on. For full banzai-highest-state-of-tune for overtaking Porsches on the ring then yeah but have it switchable to that mode IMO.
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Dane, how did you used to use so much Meth? I top my tank up every week or so and I drive like a **** everywhere! lol
 
aragorn said:
In my view, its a bodge.

If they run hot, then you should be looking to fix the reasons WHY they're running hot rather than putting a sticking plaster over it!

I wouldnt want to use it on a daily driver, and i certainly wouldnt be mapping in timing for it, as thats just asking for melted pistons when it stops working.
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Which is precisely why care is key.

I don't run Meth for heat removal on bumble, Meth makes virtually nil difference to inlet temps as they are cold anyway.

Meth is used pretty much solely for octane increase in the fuel, and I can run with the meth turned off and still only pull 6's.
 
Haha only 50:50 with water Westy ;)

Welly: I dont really know mate, smaller tank perhaps so the tank empties quicker making it appear I used to use more?
 
aragorn said:
In my view, its a bodge.

If they run hot, then you should be looking to fix the reasons WHY they're running hot rather than putting a sticking plaster over it!

I wouldnt want to use it on a daily driver, and i certainly wouldnt be mapping in timing for it, as thats just asking for melted pistons when it stops working.
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Who says its being mapped for it?
Assumptions...

WMI keeps it happy and consistent.
You can wire in fail safes if running it out was a concern.

Its benefits are well proven.

Its not a bodge as you call it. ;)
 
Prawn said:
Danes car is so stupidly quick it makes the world go backwards! haha.

Be interesting to see what you think of mine heat wise Bill, in it's low state of tune, at AMD on sunday, even after 6 back to back power runs, the manifold runners wern't even glowing, only the last 2'' of the collector started to glow a dull orange. I'm sure the turbo itself was glowing, but the manifold wasn't anything like Wellys 340bhp setup because it's just not being pushed hard at all in it's current form.

If it came down to having 325bhp without WMI or 345 bhp with WMI, I'd suffer the 20bhp loss and not run it I think, just seems like hassle and something else to keep on top of.

Can't wait for Sunday to see what she makes at Badger5, Just JKM left to try and I'll have had it on dynos north south east and west!
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you a dyno slag now dude... lol
 
audi upgrades
badger5 said:
Who says its being mapped for it?
Assumptions...

WMI keeps it happy and consistent.
You can wire in fail safes if running it out was a concern.

Its benefits are well proven.

Its not a bodge as you call it. ;)
Click to expand...

Well some cars are mapped for it, some arent. There was mention above of mapping the timing in or using unisettings to add it, hence my statement.

And ofcourse you can add failsafes for some faults like running out of fluid, but there are also faults you cant always detect, like pump failure or a leak or blocked nozzle. Or even a faulty check valve emptying the contents of the system into the intake tract when the engines off...

However, a correctly sized turbocharger for the power goals with a good intercooling system simply wont need it. Its only when your pushing things to the ragged edge, as per a K04 hybrid running 340hp, or a K04 making 285hp, does it start becoming required because everythings so far outside its comfort zone.

As such i view it as a bodge. The correct solution would be to install a turbocharger thats actually capable of making the desired power without being on the absolute ragged edge. Prawns example of his hybrid making 300hp is a perfect example of this. If you want 340hp, its far better in my mind to install a turbo that can happily and efficiently produce 340hp, while at the same time producing acceptable EGTs and not requring WM to be added to keep it safe.
 
Well i am scottish arent i? :p

Anyways, advocating spending MORE money on a proper turbo is hardly tight is it? :p

I suspect the big issue is that to spend eleventy billion quid on a hybrid turbo upgrade and only end up with a nice safe 310hp would leave a lot of people annoyed. So instead of realising that and buying the correct larger turbo in the first place like a GT2871 or whatever, they instead press on with fitting the wrong turbo and turn all the knobs up to 11 to try and get a power figure that justifies the money spend.

In all seriousness, wouldnt you rather see a customer install a nice 2871 or 3071 and get a safe, solid 350hp, that will be endlessly reliable, than install a K04 hybird, eeking out 342hp with 4 figure EGT's and needing water meth to keep it cool?

One way is 350hp done right, one isnt!
 
true Kev true, although I don't think the absolute safe limit for the hybrid has been reached yet. Wellys needed WMI at 338bhp, although Niki took mine to 329bhp on his dyno, and I got the impression from him that the turbo still had lots more to give and wasn't being pushed hard. that figure was made at around 18psi top end, with a 7100rpm rev limit.

Bill proved with Wellys that the turbo could hold 22psi beyond 7500rpm, so I think there's scope for 340bhp without massive EGT's. Whether the turbo could do more than 340 I don't know, but above that I'll admit WMI would probably be needed.
 
But that 10hp between 330 and 340 becomes more and more difficult to achieve as the exhaust restriction due to the turbine housing increases, and eventually you'll get to the point where you can add boost and dont actually get any more power.

I'm sure the compressor is capable of more, but i dont think the turbine side is. A simple comparison of the turbine housings on even a GT28RS to the K04 shows how restrictive it is!
 
aragorn said:
Well i am scottish arent i? :p

Anyways, advocating spending MORE money on a proper turbo is hardly tight is it? :p

I suspect the big issue is that to spend eleventy billion quid on a hybrid turbo upgrade and only end up with a nice safe 310hp would leave a lot of people annoyed. So instead of realising that and buying the correct larger turbo in the first place like a GT2871 or whatever, they instead press on with fitting the wrong turbo and turn all the knobs up to 11 to try and get a power figure that justifies the money spend.

In all seriousness, wouldnt you rather see a customer install a nice 2871 or 3071 and get a safe, solid 350hp, that will be endlessly reliable, than install a K04 hybird, eeking out 342hp with 4 figure EGT's and needing water meth to keep it cool?

One way is 350hp done right, one isnt!
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350 from hybid is asking too much...... low 300's..... yea, they have their place..
and reality is a lot of folks turbos are at end of life now.. old cars.
if car was cheap to buy (relative) then budget for mods might stretch to bigger framed turbos.. Some folks want to evolve from their stock style setup, and hybrids fit into this category.

budget is the differentiator as well as power delivery...
 
Prawn said:
true Kev true, although I don't think the absolute safe limit for the hybrid has been reached yet. Wellys needed WMI at 338bhp, although Niki took mine to 329bhp on his dyno, and I got the impression from him that the turbo still had lots more to give and wasn't being pushed hard. that figure was made at around 18psi top end, with a 7100rpm rev limit.

Bill proved with Wellys that the turbo could hold 22psi beyond 7500rpm, so I think there's scope for 340bhp without massive EGT's. Whether the turbo could do more than 340 I don't know, but above that I'll admit WMI would probably be needed.
Click to expand...

we have one which runs 28psi >7krpm..
not that boost equates to power of course, just saying it can hold more when pushed
 
aragorn said:
But that 10hp between 330 and 340 becomes more and more difficult to achieve as the exhaust restriction due to the turbine housing increases, and eventually you'll get to the point where you can add boost and dont actually get any more power.

I'm sure the compressor is capable of more, but i dont think the turbine side is. A simple comparison of the turbine housings on even a GT28RS to the K04 shows how restrictive it is!
Click to expand...

I have exhaust manifold pressure logs and egt's to confirm whats occuring..
hotside is'nt up to more.. without egt's going abscene
 
Just as well I won't want any more than 330 then I guess! I do see where you're coming from though, there has to come a point where it can't flow any more. I think on a built engine, 320-325bhp and some aggressive timing will give us more power than we will ever need :)
 
Prawn said:
Just as well I won't want any more than 330 then I guess! I do see where you're coming from though, there has to come a point where it can't flow any more. I think on a built engine, 320-325bhp and some aggressive timing will give us more power than we will ever need :)
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There does, and we did find it, hence why the boost came back down and WMI went in.

The hybrid got to the stage where additional boost gave nothing but heat, and thus reduced performance as you would expect. The upside to that being that with lower boost, and less EGTs, timing pull was less, and the power could be made up with safe timing advance on the large port.

Prawny, as we discussed, I think that the AGU large runner manifold really really help flow with your engine which is good, deffo for the win. I will be interested to see the difference in Bumble when I fit my manifold.
 
aragorn said:
Well some cars are mapped for it, some arent. There was mention above of mapping the timing in or using unisettings to add it, hence my statement.And ofcourse you can add failsafes for some faults like running out of fluid, but there are also faults you cant always detect, like pump failure or a leak or blocked nozzle. Or even a faulty check valve emptying the contents of the system into the intake tract when the engines off...However, a correctly sized turbocharger for the power goals with a good intercooling system simply wont need it. Its only when your pushing things to the ragged edge, as per a K04 hybrid running 340hp, or a K04 making 285hp, does it start becoming required because everythings so far outside its comfort zone.As such i view it as a bodge. The correct solution would be to install a turbocharger thats actually capable of making the desired power without being on the absolute ragged edge. Prawns example of his hybrid making 300hp is a perfect example of this. If you want 340hp, its far better in my mind to install a turbo that can happily and efficiently produce 340hp, while at the same time producing acceptable EGTs and not requring WM to be added to keep it safe.
Click to expand...

I run the FP Green without being on the ragged edge at 1.8 bar (Bill used to rum rape it 2.2 bar from memory) sustained across the rev band - and still use meth. Meth makes for a happier engine in my opinion.

I don't NEED to use it at all, but I do choose to because it will keep EGTs lower than they potentially would be, and it brings the octane level of the fuel up, and maybe just a little bit because makes big fat flames.

Higher octane, cooler charge air, cooler EGTs. All good things.
 
Today has been a good day for small things!

New gas struts arrived this morning for the bootlid, most breakers wanted £10 each for used struts which could die at any time, but BigAl managed to find them brand new on ebay for £20 delivered.

Fitted the new struts tonight, and the boot has never opened so nicely, so that's good news :)

Also has a new toy arrive today, which hopefully means more drive time and less time in the paddock changing wheels when it starts/stops raining!

a2d6fb6f.jpg
 
word of warning, make sure you start all the bolts by hand before whizzing them up with that. My brother was in the habit of putting the loose wheelbolt into the end of the gun and whizzing it in, then going "dakdakdakdakdak" and calling that tight, until he went to fit his winters this year and noticed one of the bolts more or less fell out.

Looks like he'd cross threaded it and ripped all the threads off the bolt and it was more or less just sitting there with nothing more than friction. Luckily the hub itself was ok!
 
I think Bill does an array of stud sets, screw stud into hub with locktite, then fit wheels with nuts. Should make swaps MUCH easier!
 
aragorn said:
word of warning, make sure you start all the bolts by hand before whizzing them up with that. My brother was in the habit of putting the loose wheel bolt into the end of the gun and whizzing it in, then going "dakdakdakdakdak" and calling that tight, until he went to fit his winters this year and noticed one of the bolts more or less fell out.

Looks like he'd cross threaded it and ripped all the threads off the bolt and it was more or less just sitting there with nothing more than friction. Luckily the hub itself was ok!
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Thats very good advice. Just a little add on, some years ago I had new tyres on my 3 series just before setting off on a 200 mile journey. Fifty miles or so later a front wheel seized on and the disc was glowing red. I later found out the garage had put the wheels on with an air gun and maybe 180/200 ft Lbs or more. I couldn't get the wheels off using a 6 ft extension to the torque wrench and had to go to a garage with an air gun to have them removed. There I also found out that the alloys had been twisted. Thanks garage. So the sequence should be, nut on by hand, air gun to take up the tension only and then torque them by hand, never by using the gun.
 
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More wheels painted up for track use:

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These came from Tufty, a bit battered and abused, but a little while with a grinder and some paint and they're more than good enough for track use :)
 
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