Has my car been mapped?

[feck_on_a_stick]

I've had my S3 2 months now and looking to get the ECU sent off to get mapped as there's nowhere local I'd want to take it.

I've thought that this S3 was a bit stronger than another S3 that I'd driven and wondered if it had been mapped previously. It's def not a stage 1 but I've had a friend who has a 225 TT and another who has a modified Toledo 1.8T and both also think it pulls very hard.

One of them has VAGCOM so we went out the other night and did a couple of quick tests and I was wondering if one of you lovely people would be able to help me decifer the results?

I'd read that bhp can be measured by looking at peak airflow but I don't think that was logged.........or was it? I'm pretty new to this...sorry

The car is a 2002 BAM engine and seems standard apart from a 007p.

Edit: I didn't know the best way to show these figures on here. If I can upload the excel doc, can someone let me know? There are more results hidden over to the right of my thread.

Friday	24	February	2012	22:07:34
8N0	906	18	BH	1.8L	R4/5VT	1
	Group	A:	'002	Group	B:	'006	Group	C:	'115
	Engine	RPM	Engine	Load	Ave.	Inj.	Period	Air	Mass	Flow	Engine	RPM	Engine	Load	Intake
	TIME	TIME	TIME
MARKER	STAMP	/min	%	ms	g/s	STAMP	/min	%	ï½°C	%	STAMP	/min	%	mbar	mbar
	0.91	1480	69.9	6.8	22.56	0	1440	43.6	13	1.6	0.42	1480	50.4	1020	1030
	2.3	1520	94.7	8.16	29.67	1.41	1480	75.9	13	1.6	1.9	1520	90.2	1290	1140
	3.52	1600	83.5	7.48	28.11	2.72	1560	99.2	12	1.6	3.12	1600	97.7	1150	1230
	4.83	1640	32.3	3.06	8.81	4.03	1640	53.4	11	1.6	4.43	1640	39.1	1020	1100
	6.14	1640	36.8	3.4	12.14	5.34	1640	32.3	11	1.6	5.74	1600	31.6	1020	1040
	7.44	1640	36.1	3.4	11.53	6.54	1640	36.8	12	1.6	7.04	1640	36.8	1020	1040
	8.65	1640	36.1	3.4	11.33	7.84	1640	36.1	12	1.6	8.25	1640	36.1	1020	1040
	10.06	1680	30.1	2.72	9.36	9.17	1640	33.8	13	1.6	9.66	1640	33.8	1020	1030
	11.26	1680	24.8	2.38	7.69	10.46	1680	28.6	13	1.6	10.86	1680	24.1	1020	1030
	12.57	1640	12.8	0	3.81	11.68	1680	17.3	12	1.6	12.17	1680	13.5	1020	1020
	13.87	1600	12	0	3.83	12.97	1640	12	13	1.6	13.47	1640	12	1020	1020
	15.29	1560	25.6	3.06	9.47	14.29	1600	11.3	14	1.6	14.8	1600	11.3	1020	1020
	16.7	1600	48.1	4.42	15	15.69	1560	39.8	15	1.6	16.21	1600	46.6	1020	1020
	17.92	1600	42.9	3.74	12.44	17.1	1600	46.6	14	1.6	17.5	1600	46.6	1020	1040
	19.21	1600	27.1	2.72	8.25	18.41	1600	31.6	13	1.6	18.81	1640	30.1	1020	1040
	20.41	1600	35.3	3.4	12.03	19.61	1600	27.8	13	1.6	20.01	1600	28.6	1020	1030
	21.63	1600	41.4	3.74	12.94	20.83	1600	41.4	14	1.6	21.23	1600	41.4	1020	1030
1	23.04	1600	39.8	3.74	12.44	22.14	1600	40.6	13	1.6	22.64	1600	40.6	1020	1040
	24.35	1600	42.1	3.74	13.39	23.55	1600	41.4	13	1.6	23.95	1600	42.1	1020	1040
	25.66	1600	41.4	3.74	12.61	24.84	1600	42.1	13	1.6	25.26	1600	42.1	1020	1040
	26.96	1600	39.1	3.74	11.89	26.14	1600	39.8	13	1.6	26.56	1600	38.3	1020	1040
	28.36	1600	48.1	4.42	16.14	27.47	1600	39.1	13	1.6	27.96	1600	39.1	1020	1040
	29.67	1600	60.2	5.44	17.67	28.76	1600	56.4	13	1.6	29.26	1600	60.9	1020	1060
	30.89	1600	51.9	4.42	15.75	30.07	1600	53.4	12	1.6	30.47	1600	51.9	1020	1070
	32.07	1600	51.9	4.76	15.86	31.29	1600	52.6	12	0	31.67	1600	52.6	1020	1060
	33.29	1600	73.7	7.14	28.11	32.49	1600	50.4	12	0	32.89	1600	50.4	1020	1050
	34.6	1680	100	8.5	32.47	33.69	1600	86.5	12	0	34.2	1640	95.5	1570	1190
	35.82	1720	92.5	7.48	29.47	35	1680	103.8	11	0	35.4	1720	106.8	1590	1290
	37.11	1640	13.5	0	2.67	36.31	1680	29.3	9	0	36.71	1680	14.3	1020	1100
	38.41	1120	21.1	2.04	4.97	37.61	1440	12.8	11	0	38.01	1160	24.8	1020	1030
	39.63	1000	17.3	1.7	3.33	38.83	1080	19.5	12	0	39.23	1000	18	1020	1020
2	40.94	1120	12	1.36	2.64	40.05	1000	15	12	0	40.44	1040	12.8	1020	1020
	42.34	840	18.8	2.04	3.39	41.45	1000	12.8	13	0	41.83	880	15.8	1020	1010
	43.64	840	20.3	2.04	3.19	42.74	840	19.5	14	0	43.14	800	18.8	1020	1010
	44.86	840	19.5	2.04	3.17	44.06	840	19.5	14	0	44.46	840	19.5	1020	1010
	46.06	840	19.5	2.04	3.19	45.26	840	19.5	14	0	45.66	800	19.5	1020	1010
	47.27	800	20.3	2.04	3.5	46.46	800	19.5	14	0	46.86	800	19.5	1020	1010
	48.49	1320	65.4	6.12	16.64	47.67	840	27.8	14	0	48.07	1120	59.4	1020	1010
	49.78	2480	84.2	7.14	42.06	48.98	1680	69.9	14	0	49.38	2040	77.4	1180	1110
	51	4680	162.4	12.92	148	50.2	3040	121.1	12	0	50.6	3760	157.9	1860	1710
	52.31	4200	139.8	12.92	134.19	51.4	5600	181.2	11	0	51.82	6280	118.8	1020	1770
	53.51	5760	188.7	15.98	205.86	52.71	4760	191.7	11	0	53.11	5280	191.7	2330	2130
	54.92	4600	191.7	18.36	186.14	53.93	6160	172.9	12	0	54.42	4680	128.6	2340	1330
	56.13	5320	191.7	16.32	197.53	55.32	4840	191.7	14	0	55.72	5080	191.7	2340	2170
	57.33	5920	176.7	15.3	203.86	56.53	5520	191.7	15	0	56.93	5720	180.5	2250	2000
	58.55	6280	81.2	7.48	84.97	57.73	6080	172.2	18	0	58.15	6280	160.2	1940	1880
	59.85	5160	185.7	15.64	184.11	59.05	4960	182	18	0	59.45	5040	191.7	2220	2100
	61.06	5480	182.7	15.64	192.58	60.25	5280	185	21	0	60.65	5360	182	2220	2060
	62.47	5800	178.9	15.98	200.28	61.56	5600	181.2	22	0	61.96	5680	182.7	2220	2000
	63.67	6040	173.7	17	200.44	62.87	5880	180.5	24	0	63.27	6000	177.4	2140	1970
	64.98	4960	153.4	15.98	169.22	64.07	6120	166.2	25	0	64.49	6360	74.4	1020	1900
	66.18	5080	189.5	16.32	181.11	65.38	5000	191.7	25	0	65.78	5040	190.2	2190	2090
	67.4	5240	188.7	15.98	187.14	66.58	5160	185.7	26	0	66.98	5200	189.5	2190	2050
	68.6	5400	185.7	16.32	190.28	67.8	5320	186.5	27	0	68.2	5360	187.2	2190	2050
	69.81	5520	186.5	18.36	198.06	69	5440	188.7	27	0	69.4	5480	188	2190	2080
	71.01	5640	185	18.36	197.72	70.21	5560	185	27	0	70.61	5600	187.2	2150	2050
	72.21	5800	182.7	17.68	203.86	71.41	5680	181.2	28	0	71.83	5760	186.5	2130	2080
	73.62	4840	124.8	13.26	134.89	72.63	5840	182.7	29	1.6	73.14	5800	64.7	1020	2200
	75.03	4760	12	1.36	3.97	74.04	4840	191.7	27	1.6	74.55	4840	63.9	1020	2060
	76.32	4360	12	0	10.03	75.44	4640	12	23	1.6	75.94	4480	12	1020	1070
	77.55	4000	12	0	9.78	76.74	4240	11.3	23	1.6	77.14	4120	12	1020	1060
	78.96	3720	12	0	9.03	77.95	3880	12	22	1.6	78.45	3760	12	1020	1060
	80.26	3440	12.8	0	8.86	79.36	3640	12	21	1.6	79.76	3560	12	1020	1060
	81.47	3160	12.8	0	7.69	80.66	3320	12.8	21	1.6	81.06	3280	12.8	1020	1050
	82.77	2800	12.8	0	7.08	81.87	3040	12.8	21	1.6	82.37	2880	12.8	1020	1040
	83.99	1600	12.8	1.36	4.11	83.17	2640	12.8	21	1.6	83.57	2120	12.8	1020	1040
	85.19	1120	15.8	1.7	3.81	84.37	1360	12	21	1.6	84.79	1240	13.5	1020	1020
	86.48	880	18.8	2.04	3.28	85.59	1040	16.5	21	1.6	86	960	16.5	1020	1020
	87.79	840	19.5	2.04	3.33	86.9	840	20.3	21	1.6	87.39	840	19.5	1020	1010
	89.2	840	20.3	2.04	3.28	88.31	840	20.3	20	1.6	88.72	840	19.5	1020	1010
	90.42	840	19.5	2.04	3.19	89.6	800	19.5	20	0	90	840	19.5	1020	1010
	91.71	840	20.3	2.04	3.36	90.82	840	19.5	20	0	91.22	800	18.8	1020	1010
	93.02	1560	14.3	1.7	3.33	92.13	800	19.5	20	0	92.62	1600	20.3	1020	1010
	94.34	1520	28.6	2.72	8	93.42	1560	17.3	19	0	93.94	1520	28.6	1020	1010
3	95.54	1520	13.5	1.36	3.36	94.75	1520	24.8	19	0	95.15	1520	21.8	1020	1020
	96.85	1520	31.6	3.06	9.39	95.95	1520	14.3	18	0	96.35	1520	26.3	1020	1010
	98.05	1560	78.2	7.48	25.61	97.25	1560	31.6	18	0	97.66	1520	30.8	1020	1020
	99.26	1760	100	8.84	35.94	98.46	1640	85	18	0	98.86	1680	94	1700	1170
	100.57	2000	128.6	10.88	53.17	99.68	1800	107.5	17	0	100.18	1920	117.3	2080	1370
	101.87	2320	162.4	13.6	75.61	100.97	2080	138.3	15	0	101.39	2200	149.6	2330	1610
	103.09	2640	191.7	16.32	108.86	102.29	2400	172.9	15	0	102.69	2520	189.5	2450	2010
	104.4	3120	191.7	19.72	141.17	103.5	2760	191.7	15	0	103.9	2920	191.7	2390	2500
	105.61	3560	191.7	18.36	147.06	104.8	3280	191.7	15	0	105.2	3400	191.7	2350	2420
	106.91	4040	191.7	17.68	164.44	106.11	3760	191.7	16	0	106.51	3920	191.7	2320	2370
	108.13	4480	191.7	17	173.56	107.31	4200	191.7	18	0	107.73	4320	191.7	2290	2300
	109.33	4880	191.7	17.68	180.36	108.53	4600	191.7	20	0	108.93	4720	191.7	2250	2200
	110.64	5240	190.2	17.68	190.22	109.84	5000	191	21	0	110.24	5120	188.7	2250	2090
	111.95	5600	184.2	17	198.06	111.15	5400	185.7	24	0	111.53	5480	182.7	2230	2040
	113.24	5880	178.2	17.34	203.86	112.46	5720	184.2	26	0	112.84	5800	183.5	2220	2030
	114.46	5080	12	1.7	7.83	113.64	6000	181.2	27	0	114.06	5960	94.7	1020	1950
4	115.66	4600	12	0	10.67	114.86	4720	12	24	0	115.26	4640	12	1020	1090
	116.97	4480	12	0	10.89	116.06	4560	12	23	0	116.48	4520	12	1020	1050
	118.28	4280	12	0	10.5	117.37	4440	12	23	0	117.77	4360	12	1020	1050
	119.48	4000	12	0	9.75	118.68	4200	12	22	1.6	119.08	4120	12	1020	1050
	120.7	3760	12	0	9.42	119.88	3920	12	22	1.6	120.28	3840	12	1020	1060
	121.9	3600	12	0	8.72	121.1	3680	12	21	1.6	121.5	3640	12	1020	1050
	123.2	3480	12.8	0	8.92	122.3	3600	12	21	1.6	122.7	3560	12	1020	1050
	124.51	3360	12.8	0	8.28	123.61	3440	12.8	21	1.6	124.11	3400	12.8	1020	1050

 

[Essflee]

Yes, definitley mapped, aprox 256bhp...

 

[feck_on_a_stick]

Thanks Essflee.

If that's right though, I'm a bit disappointed

How do you work out the approx bhp from those results? Would be nice to learn so I don't have to keep asking

 

[aragorn]

take the values in the g/sec column and multiply by 1.25.

Your peak g/s is around 203, so thats ~254hp

 

[djx11b]

airflow g\s - 205.86 divide by 0.8 = 257 bhp around that mark

 

[aragorn]

adding a quarter is somewhat easier than dividing by 0.8.

I've never understood why folk insist on using that rule when multiplying by 1.25 is exactly the same, and much easier to do quickly in your head.

 

[feck_on_a_stick]

Thanks guys

Havin a look at it now, I can see how you worked it out.

My friend who logged the results doesn't think I'm hitting the requested boost levels though for some reason.

 

[brasiliangringo]

Thanks Essflee.

If that's right though, I'm a bit disappointed

.. because it doesn't pull hard enough ?

 

[brasiliangringo]

Thanks guys

Havin a look at it now, I can see how you worked it out.

My friend who logged the results doesn't think I'm hitting the requested boost levels though for some reason.

If you go to measuring blocks 115 you can run a boost test (i think its in 3rd gear from about 2000rpm wide open throttle to near the red line) and log the results in a chart - upload the chart here but there should not be a huge deviation. There will be a specified boost and actual boost. However, i have no experience of doing this when the engine has been modified, but expect it will make no difference as new specified boost values will have been 'remapped in' which vag com should pick up.. ?

 

[feck_on_a_stick]

.. because it doesn't pull hard enough ?

It's a sharp car but if it's currently running approx 250bhp then I guess I can't help but feel a bit disappointed with how much it actually does lose putting that out onto the road. I'd read that it does, but had still hoped for a bit better

Just from measuring it against a point in the road with some other cars I've had, I expected better with a map.

Saying that, I'm still very happy with the car, and it means i can put my map money to use on a TIP pipe and few other bits and pieces instead

 

[aragorn]

It doesnt "lose" any more than any other car.

Its just a fairly heavy motor with not that much power.

 

[brasiliangringo]

It doesnt "lose" any more than any other car.

Its just a fairly heavy motor with not that much power.

That's why you are gunning for a V8..

 

[aragorn]

both my dailies are 1.8T's

V8's are awesome but i couldnt afford to fuel one on a daily driven car!

 

[brasiliangringo]

LPG.. Do the conversion yourself. Budget £1000 for a top kit. 80p / L. Theres a chap on here who runs his B5 S4 on a BRC LPG Kit and swears by it with no real power loss..

 

[aragorn]

yeh its certainly something to consider, theres a V8 Merc Taxi that runs around here thats on LPG.

The landrover has a long way to go before its finished anyway!

 

[brasiliangringo]

Those V8 defender engines sound great. Although tea leaves love them - 2 people i know had their 2000 Td5s stolen in the last few months (both found burnt out). They pulled out the fairly ineffectual immobiliser from near the gear stick area / trans tunnel, so would seem after market security systems like toad and Clifford still have some hope !!

 

[Rick @ Unicorn Motor Dev.]

Log block 20 & 31.

The whole power from airflow thing is very hit and miss on turbo cars. Good timing is what gets you the power.

Rick

 

[badger5]

Thanks guys

Havin a look at it now, I can see how you worked it out.

My friend who logged the results doesn't think I'm hitting the requested boost levels though for some reason.

repeat and log 118 also to see duty cycle to n75.. that will give you an indication of if its maxed out trying to achieve

if not meeting request,... leaks... tired turbo or actuator or both

 

[feck_on_a_stick]

Thanks again. Looks like I've a few more runs to log

 

[brasiliangringo]

Post up your results please as am interested to understand the 118 results (not something i used)

 

[feck_on_a_stick]

Will do

 

[brasiliangringo]

The whole power from airflow thing is very hit and miss on turbo cars. Good timing is what gets you the power.

Rick

Obviously good timing is also crucial with any normally aspirated engine, so your answer suggests that forced induction (& greater pressure) in some way distort the accuracy of determining power through these readings - could you please explain why that is?

 

[aragorn]

Those V8 defender engines sound great. Although tea leaves love them - 2 people i know had their 2000 Td5s stolen in the last few months (both found burnt out). They pulled out the fairly ineffectual immobiliser from near the gear stick area / trans tunnel, so would seem after market security systems like toad and Clifford still have some hope !!

Entirely OT for this thread ofcourse, but my Landrover wont be having a crappy Rover V8. I've got a 4.2L ABZ motor From an Audi A8 to go in it. Projects sort of stalled for the last year though, i really need to pull my finger out and get a bit of a shift on with it. Too many other things going on though.

 

[Rick @ Unicorn Motor Dev.]

Obviously good timing is also crucial with any normally aspirated engine, so your answer suggests that forced induction (& greater pressure) in some way distort the accuracy of determining power through these readings - could you please explain why that is?

Of course

Timing is even more critical on a forced induction engine than on a N/A engine. Small differences in timing make large changes to power, and to exhaust gas temperature. When we use the divide by 0.8 figure we are assuming that the engine produces the same amount of power for every gram of air it consumes. The two are of course directly related, but also factored by something called BSFC, brake specific fuel consumption.

Actually, to be correct you should be looking at the amount of fuel burned rather than air consumed. Again, these two inputs are directly linked, but are factored by the Air fuel ratio. Change the AFR ratio and the BSFC changes, as does the amount of power produced per gram of air.

BSFC is also influenced significantly by ignition timing. The timing is important. When changing the timing, you aren't changing the amount of energy being produced (at least not by much) but how that energy is is distributed. The later the ignition timing, the more energy turns into heat and therefore less is available for mechanical work.

You loose power and the engine runs hotter, but the same amount of power air is consumed. You often see cars running big boost, but the timing is so retarded they feel completely flat as literally all the fuel is being turned into heat!

Rick

 

[brasiliangringo]

Thanks for that Rick - very interesting and something i can now look out for.. I find the 'elementary' is the best foundation for any learning but often overlooked by the likes of me who haven't had a basic qualification in engine tuning, something i thought about doing.. In fact, i tried to find some literature on amazon about tuning a modern engine (inc turbos), the basics onwards to remapping etc but found very little out there..

 

[sideways steve]

Thanks for that Rick - very interesting and something i can now look out for.. I find the 'elementary' is the best foundation for any learning but often overlooked by the likes of me who haven't had a basic qualification in engine tuning, something i thought about doing.. In fact, i tried to find some literature on amazon about tuning a modern engine (inc turbos), the basics onwards to remapping etc but found very little out there..

try these links, within which you will find links to suitable books etc

NefMoto - Index
GeekMapped.com

 

[brasiliangringo]

try these links, within which you will find links to suitable books etc

NefMoto - Index
GeekMapped.com

Thanks - i will take a look

 

[camscockle20vT]

OT but kind of where its going now but i find that tuning is very often under rated, in the way that people think its a peice of cake.

whack a remap on it , but any mong can get 200bhp from a 1.8t. Or whatever is the standard for a stage 1map on a s3, about 250bhp by looking at your result.

Iv got a 1.8t and i have some plans for it, but im doing all the research and getting parts together for when i decide to spend the cash. Iv still got some cosmetic work to do firstly lol but Theres alot to learn and i know pritty much FA but im sure i can get 230bhp from my ko3s for under £600.

Also i dont know if my car is re mapped or not, feels like it but theres only one real way to find out, and thats a RR day. Ahmm anyone gonna sort one out and drop some invites

 

[Rick @ Unicorn Motor Dev.]

You should also be able to tell from logging requested boost in VAGCOM

Rick

 

[brasiliangringo]

You often see cars running big boost, but the timing is so retarded they feel completely flat as literally all the fuel is being turned into heat!

Rick

Let me get this straight: the same volume of exhaust gases (and boost) can be produced in a 'sweetly timed' engine as in a retarded one? The difference being the latter will result in heat creation where as the former will result in greater kinetic energy, meaning greater piston movement.. ?
Einstein

 

[Rick @ Unicorn Motor Dev.]

Absolutely spot on!

 

[brasiliangringo]

Absolutely spot on!

Cool, thats quite helpful info on which to build