3rd gear logs

[millermk1]

Done some 3rd gear logs today, my mate thinks everything looks ok, can anyone see anything different.

Any info would be great

Cheers

Friday	10	February	2012	02:26:14:36807	VCDS Version: Release 11.11.2 (x64)	Data version: 20120126
8N0 906 018 BH	1.8L R4/5VT G 0001
	Group A:	'115		Group B:	'020		Group C:	'003
	Engine Speed	Engine Load	Boost Pressure	Boost Pressure	Timing Retardation	Timing Retardation	Timing Retardation	Timing Retardation	Engine Speed	Mass Air Flow	Throttle Valve Angle	Ignition
	TIME	(G28)		(specified)	(actual)	TIME	Cylinder 1	Cylinder 2	Cylinder 3	Cylinder 4	TIME	(G28)	Sensor (G70)	Timing Angle
Marker	STAMP	/min	%	mbar	mbar	STAMP	°KW	°KW	°KW	°KW	STAMP	/min	g/s	%	°ATDC
	0.62	1640	76.7	1640	1050	0.01	0	0	0	0	0.31	1560	17.78	15.3	25.5
	1.52	1920	93.2	2080	1210	0.92	0	0	0	0	1.22	1840	31.94	81.6	16.5
	2.42	2240	121.8	2440	1430	1.82	0	0	0	0	2.12	2120	48.64	87.8	13.5
	3.33	2640	154.9	2550	1760	2.73	0	0	0	0	3.02	2520	74.67	45.1	11.3
	4.24	3120	191.7	2550	2320	3.63	0	0	0	0	3.93	2960	113.56	42	1.5
	5.14	3840	191.7	2550	2540	4.54	0	0	0	0	4.84	3520	154.61	44.7	6
	6.05	4280	191.7	2550	2460	5.44	0	3	0	0	5.74	4120	170.89	47.8	11.3
	6.95	4840	191.7	2550	2300	6.35	0	3	0	0	6.65	4640	178.89	50.6	12
	7.86	5320	185.7	2550	2180	7.25	0	3	0	0	7.55	5160	184.36	53.3	11.3
	8.76	5800	182	2550	2110	8.17	0	1.5	0	0	8.47	5640	201.14	54.1	14.3
	9.67	6200	175.2	2550	2070	9.06	0	0	0	0	9.37	6040	203.31	55.7	14.3
	10.57	6520	170.7	2480	2110	9.97	3	0	0	0	10.27	6440	214.11	55.7	15

 

[badger5]

looks like an aggressive map.
whats block 031 show for fueling during all of this

 

[<tuffty/>]

LOL... looks like one of those 'lets turn the boost to 11' maps...

I'd want to see block 031 in there to see what the fuelling is doing but airflow looks ok, minimal timing pull...

<tuffty/>

 

[Alex C]

is the requested boost at 2550 mbar maxed out at that figure?

 

[badger5]

you and I have seen too many of these.... Hopefully this one also has been given some fueling to go with the raised boost.

logging blocks 112,118,031 will show egt's, ait's, n75 duty cycle, and fueling - Presuming your wideband.... which I think you are,,

 

[badger5]

is the requested boost at 2550 mbar maxed out at that figure?

2550mb is max of the map sensor yes.. so in requested terms its as high as you can directly ask for.. You can of course do more than what you can see... but thats outside of the range of the ecu's map sensor.

 

[millermk1]

The map was done at Star Performance in Scotland. I will have to do some more runs but logging 112,118,031 see whats going on. Thanks for all the help and comments. Will post ASAP

 

[djx11b]

Had my S3 mapped at same place will need to get some logs and see if there similar to yours.

 

[sideways steve]

239 bhp max power I make that from the airflow ? Seems a bit low surely when its running 1.5 bar of boost ?

Especially since a stock 210bhp S3 only runs at about 0.8 bar, I would have expected nearly double the boost to have given more than 30 bhp ?

Also that boost only hits the requested amount once throughout the run and tails off quite a bit. Is that normal for a remapped car or does it just have a weak actuator ?

 

[djx11b]

Is it not 267 bhp. i thought it was air flow divide by 0.8.

 

[<tuffty/>]

Actual boost looks about right tbh...

Its the map request thats confusing the issue... seen a few maps like this... its not the way others tend to do it... its a generic turn boost up to 11 and let it sort itself out... as Bill has said it would be more interesting to see if the fuelling has been sorted to cope...

<tuffty/>

 

[sideways steve]

DOH, I was looking at engine load LOL !

 

[djx11b]

once roads get a bit quieter will head out tonight and do some logs on mine and upload be good to see if running ok as done by same company just after i got the car.

i have done both my logs but not sure best way to upload as excel file keeps shifting over any one help me on this please ??

Friday	10	February	2012	18:59:23
8N0 906 018 J		1.8L R4/5VT 0003
	Group A:	'115				Group B:	'020				Group C:	'003
		RPM	Load	Absolute Pres.	Absolute Pres.		Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization		RPM	Mass Flow	Load	Ign. Timing
	TIME					TIME					TIME
Marker	STAMP	/min	%	mbar	mbar	STAMP	CF	CF	CF	CF	STAMP	/min	g/s	%	°BTDC
	0.42	1160	50.4	1020	1010	0.82	0	0	0	0	0.01	800	3.89	2.4	0
	1.71	1040	63.2	1020	1040	2.11	0	0	0	0	1.22	1440	16.22	10.2	7.5
	3.03	1240	42.9	1020	1040	3.44	0	0	0	0	2.53	1120	9.72	6.7	5.3
	4.24	1720	59.4	1020	1050	4.75	0	0	0	0	3.84	1440	22.61	14.5	23.3
	5.54	2400	17.3	1020	1160	5.95	0	0	1.5	0	5.15	2480	43.44	26.3	21
	6.86	2280	88.7	1020	1360	7.36	0	0	0	0	6.35	2040	40.83	86.3	15
	8.27	1880	97.7	1810	1240	8.75	0	0	1.5	0	7.76	1720	32.44	76.9	13.5
	9.57	2360	132.3	2330	1530	9.98	0	0	0	0	9.17	2200	53.03	89.4	12
	10.88	3080	191.7	2430	2490	11.28	0	0	0	3	10.48	2840	107.78	98.4	6
	12.1	3960	191.7	2450	2440	12.59	0	0	0	3	11.68	3640	150.89	100	6
	13.5	4880	191.7	2440	2430	14	3	3	3	6	12.99	4560	193.11	99.6	8.3
	14.91	5720	191.7	2280	2320	15.31	6	6	6	9	14.4	5440	217.78	100	8.3
	16.11	6280	191.7	2210	2190	16.51	5.3	5.3	5.3	9	15.71	6080	227.78	100	8.3
	17.31	6680	179.7	2180	2230	17.73	5.3	5.3	5.3	8.3	16.93	6560	231.22	100	10.5
	18.64	7000	149.6	1590	2340	19.13	0	0	0	0	18.22	6960	228.22	100	9.8
	20.03	6280	12.8	1020	1110	20.43	0	0	0	0	19.63	6520	13.33	9	9.8
	21.34	5280	12	1020	1060	21.74	0	0	0	0	20.84	5640	13.53	8.2	6
	22.54	4200	12.8	1020	1050	22.94	0	0	0	0	22.14	4560	11.03	7.1	5.3
	23.85	2880	13.5	1020	1040	24.25	0	0	0	0	23.44	3320	8.53	5.5	2.3
	25.07	1640	12.8	1020	1040	25.56	0	0	0	0	24.65	2080	5.39	3.5	3
	26.46	960	16.5	1020	1020	26.86	0	0	0	0	25.96	1120	3.22	2	16.5
	27.66	840	19.5	1020	1020	28.08	0	0	0	0	27.28	840	3.31	2	1.5

 

[djx11b]

Friday	10	February	2012	18:17:57
8N0 906 018 J		1.8L R4/5VT 0003
	Group A:	'112				Group B:	'118				Group C:	'031
		Temperature	Load	Bin. Bits	Bin. Bits		RPM	Temperature	Load	Absolute Pres.		Lambda Factor	Lambda Factor	Bin. Bits	Bin. Bits
	TIME					TIME					TIME
Marker	STAMP	°C	%			STAMP	/min	°C	%	mbar	STAMP
	0.4	525	0			0.9	800	21	0	1010	0.01	1.023	0.992
	1.71	520	0			2.21	1160	21	94.5	1050	1.31	0.899	0.992
	3.03	530	0			3.43	2560	18	0	1320	2.63	0.953	0.992
	4.32	560	0			4.74	2000	18	94.5	1220	3.82	0.992	0.992
	5.54	590	0			5.94	2480	16	0	1250	5.14	1.008	0.992
	6.75	630	0			7.15	2000	17	94.5	1280	6.34	0.984	0.984
	8.05	650	0			8.45	2520	18	94.5	1670	7.55	0.961	0.953
	9.36	680	0			9.76	3280	18	74.1	2140	8.86	0.953	0.953
	10.67	750	0			11.07	4160	18	77.3	2240	10.27	0.938	0.953
	11.87	795	0			12.27	4960	20	79.6	2290	11.47	0.953	0.953
	13.18	855	0			13.58	5760	22	80.4	2210	12.69	0.93	0.953
	14.4	905	0			14.8	6320	24	78	2110	13.98	0.938	0.953
	15.69	945	5.1			16.11	6840	27	79.2	2120	15.29	0.953	0.953
	17.02	975	16.1			17.5	7040	26	0	1390	16.61	0.821	0.821
	18.32	970	0			18.72	6560	24	0	1090	17.9	0.914	0.961
	19.61	935	0			20.01	5800	25	0	1060	19.12	1.991	1.047
	20.93	855	0			21.33	4600	25	0	1040	20.43	1.991	1.047
	22.13	790	0			22.54	2840	24	0	1040	21.73	1.991	1.047
	23.44	725	0			23.84	2480	24	0	1040	23.02	1.991	1.047
	24.73	675	0			25.13	2320	24	0	1040	24.24	1.991	1.047
	26.06	640	0			26.46	1840	24	0	1030	25.57	1.991	1.047
	27.26	610	0			27.66	1000	24	0	1020	26.84	1.991	1.047
	28.46	600	0			28.86	760	24	0	1020	28.06	1.554	0.945
	29.66	595	0			30.08	720	23	0	1010	29.26	1.016	0.945
	30.97	590	0			31.37	720	23	0	1010	30.48	0.938	0.945

 

[<tuffty/>]

Hummm... lots of timing pull... dangerously so... fuelling looks std so basically all the boost and no fuel

975 deg EGT's... ouchies...

Your fuelling needs sorting mate...

<tuffty/>

 

[djx11b]

best to go back to star performance and ask for fuel to be sorted out then tuffy ?

thought bhp seemed a bit high for mods as only got a remap and badger 5 with jetex and cat back milltek

 

[<tuffty/>]

The lean fuel at the top end will give more power but at the expense of the engine running dangerously hot... EGT protection seems to be kicking in (920deg EGT's) but it could be too little too late... 975deg is pretty hot...

You can try and ask... if thats the fuelling then its not right... should be 0.85 ish on boost... (12.5 AFR)

You can see at the end of the run where the EGT's hit 975deg that the lambda drops to 0.82... thats the EGT protection kicking in... ideally the fuelling will prevent EGT protection from being needed under normal conditions as it just pours fuel in which is not the best...

<tuffty/>

 

[djx11b]

once again thanks for your advice. I have sent Jim a email with a link to this post so he can see my logs so will await his responce and see what he would advise for me. was looking to be getting my jbs manifold, pipewerx downpipe and sports cat fitted soon so might try and tie in all in if i need to head back up that way .

I'm not to tech minded about all the logs and way it runs so any feedback or help would be great

sorry hope i'm not hijacking the thread as well

james

 

[Rick @ Unicorn Motor Dev.]

In the first log you post, look at the throttle plate angle... The boost PID maps need retuning. It is running too lean, and would make more power if richer and cooler. Also, it could also run more timing, leading to even more power and cooler running.

Rick

 

[beachbuggy]

Have to agree with tuffty, it looks like the tuner has just increased the boost map ldrxn to the magical 190, which seems to be a popular max without actually adjusting fuelling. In theory the lambda maps control the fueling but once you go past the EGT protection setting it'll do extra fuel in to combat the high egts. Basically you're relying on the safety features of the ecu to prevent high egts and lean conditions. As said before a properly tuned map shouldn't hit these limits/protection features. The cf's also show that the ting maps are also either stock or not correct.

 

[Pedrosousa]

The LOAD in block 115 isn't the Load at ldrxn... Of that I'm sure.
The function that prevents high EGT it's the BTS, the map it's KFLBTS, some people tune fuel with that function, setting TABGBTS to a lower value.
I think that the car runs to lean all the time... try to set the Lambda to +-.85, and EGT will drop, timing pull will drop and you'll have a more stable timing and higher...

 

[superkarl]

Guys whats the equation/method of turning the lambda values to AFR??

 

[Pedrosousa]

Guys whats the equation/method of turning the lambda values to AFR??

Lambda = 1 = AFR = 14.7

 

[badger5]

Friday	10	February	2012	18:17:57
8N0 906 018 J		1.8L R4/5VT 0003
	Group A:	'112				Group B:	'118				Group C:	'031
		Temperature	Load	Bin. Bits	Bin. Bits		RPM	Temperature	Load	Absolute Pres.		Lambda Factor	Lambda Factor	Bin. Bits	Bin. Bits
	TIME					TIME					TIME
Marker	STAMP	°C	%			STAMP	/min	°C	%	mbar	STAMP
	0.4	525	0			0.9	800	21	0	1010	0.01	1.023	0.992
	1.71	520	0			2.21	1160	21	94.5	1050	1.31	0.899	0.992
	3.03	530	0			3.43	2560	18	0	1320	2.63	0.953	0.992
	4.32	560	0			4.74	2000	18	94.5	1220	3.82	0.992	0.992
	5.54	590	0			5.94	2480	16	0	1250	5.14	1.008	0.992
	6.75	630	0			7.15	2000	17	94.5	1280	6.34	0.984	0.984
	8.05	650	0			8.45	2520	18	94.5	1670	7.55	0.961	0.953
	9.36	680	0			9.76	3280	18	74.1	2140	8.86	0.953	0.953
	10.67	750	0			11.07	4160	18	77.3	2240	10.27	0.938	0.953
	11.87	795	0			12.27	4960	20	79.6	2290	11.47	0.953	0.953
	13.18	855	0			13.58	5760	22	80.4	2210	12.69	0.93	0.953
	14.4	905	0			14.8	6320	24	78	2110	13.98	0.938	0.953
	15.69	945	5.1			16.11	6840	27	79.2	2120	15.29	0.953	0.953
	17.02	975	16.1			17.5	7040	26	0	1390	16.61	0.821	0.821
	18.32	970	0			18.72	6560	24	0	1090	17.9	0.914	0.961
	19.61	935	0			20.01	5800	25	0	1060	19.12	1.991	1.047
	20.93	855	0			21.33	4600	25	0	1040	20.43	1.991	1.047
	22.13	790	0			22.54	2840	24	0	1040	21.73	1.991	1.047
	23.44	725	0			23.84	2480	24	0	1040	23.02	1.991	1.047
	24.73	675	0			25.13	2320	24	0	1040	24.24	1.991	1.047
	26.06	640	0			26.46	1840	24	0	1030	25.57	1.991	1.047
	27.26	610	0			27.66	1000	24	0	1020	26.84	1.991	1.047
	28.46	600	0			28.86	760	24	0	1020	28.06	1.554	0.945
	29.66	595	0			30.08	720	23	0	1010	29.26	1.016	0.945
	30.97	590	0			31.37	720	23	0	1010	30.48	0.938	0.945

I'm afraid its exactly the sort of map I was expecting to see (all too common)

No adjustments have been made to factory fueling whilst adding in a shed load of boost.... which promotes exceedingly high egt's which promotes high timing pull.... Anything over 920'c is protection mode fueling, and anything over 6CF is regarded as too much timing pull also...

Given this is only a 3rd gear run, imagine what the temps and timing pull are in longer sustained runs in 4,5,6th gears!!!!!

Unsafe map imho as it stands.
Check with Star and ask if they think the logs look ok, normal to them.

 

[badger5]

best to go back to star performance and ask for fuel to be sorted out then tuffy ?

thought bhp seemed a bit high for mods as only got a remap and badger 5 with jetex and cat back milltek

The high flow TIP explains the nice high airflows... Add some fuel to the party and it will be better for it. 0.9x lambda's under boost is not good at all.

 

[badger5]

In the first log you post, look at the throttle plate angle... The boost PID maps need retuning. It is running too lean, and would make more power if richer and cooler. Also, it could also run more timing, leading to even more power and cooler running.

Rick

good spot.. very odd throttle angle... when it should be 100%.. I had'nt scrolled that far across.

 

[s3gazz]

I had one of these ****ty maps lads as bill and tuffty nose change it asap my turbo went wich made me go hybrid.

At the time I did not have a job do I was f.....cked but don't do what I did and leave it as long as possible boost boost boost they just take ya money and f....ck ya car lads I'm on standered map now and still running same as bhp as I was with the map lol.

 

[Rick @ Unicorn Motor Dev.]

Just looked at your location - Barrow. I had another car come to me from Barrow that had had a mysterious remap, displaying very similar symptoms. See here: AudiSRS.com :: 1 HAPPY CHAPPY AFTER REMAP AND EXTRAS

Mass air flow DOES NOT EQUAL POWER, especially on a turbo charged car. It is purely a function of boost and hardware spec. It can be used to see the difference a hardware mod will make, eg bigger inter cooler, turbo, head work. It can't be used to compare one map to another due to timing and fuelling having such dramatic effects. 8 degrees timing at the top end is very poor, no way do you have 260+ I'm afriad

Rick

 

[Sean_S3]

How can we be guaranteed a safe map then ?

Some of the companies that are selling these generic maps at affordable prices are supposedly reputable tuners .

 

[badger5]

go on reputation and advise from others who have been somewhere and get +ve feedback.
i would'nt choose by price, and would look for those who can validate the maps on a dyno, showing you actual before and after with logs etc....

my 2p

 

[millermk1]

Afternoon Chaps

Im not going to get chance to do the logs this weekend but i will at some point next week. By the looks of things its gonna be exactly the same as james'. I may have to arrange a trip to come and see one of you guys, not brilliant timing because in need of a new clutch also. Better get the overtime in.

Again thanks for the input

 

[R-Tech-Nick]

Dimsport driver packs missing LAMFA and KFLBTS...

 

[<tuffty/>]

Dimsport driver packs missing LAMFA and KFLBTS...

That would do it...

<tuffty/>

 

[Pedrosousa]

Dimsport driver packs missing LAMFA and KFLBTS...

Use LAMFA to set the AFR in WOT, and set KFLBTS to preserve the engine in case of high EGT

I can post 2d images of LAMFA and BTS

 

[R-Tech-Nick]

I was pointing out most on the non specailist tuners will use editing SW which offers a basic map packs just to wack up the load, timing and boost limiters on ME * ecu which are lambda 1* based. If they are lucky they will tune a map with KFLBTS which is not set to 1 like 0261204899 if they are unlucky they will tune 0261207952 which has KFLBTS set to 1 across the board.

But saying that even Damos, A2l files and supermap pack get the LAMFA X-axis wrong converting it into 16bitLo/Hi not Hi/Lowhich can confuse some tuners.


IMO tuning the fuel via LMFA gets the best results.

 

[beachbuggy]

Excuse my ignorance but do some tuners really just turn up the load timing and boost limiters and leave lamfa stock? Surely it's basic good practice when you run increased loads and timings to enrich the fuel to 12-12.5 at wot and the only way this'll happen is by adjusting lamfa or kflbts. I know some prefer kflbts And the fact it's triggered by EGT to enrichen, but surely leaving it stock is potentially dangerous to the engine?

 

[badger5]

Excuse my ignorance but do some tuners really just turn up the load timing and boost limiters and leave lamfa stock? Surely it's basic good practice when you run increased loads and timings to enrich the fuel to 12-12.5 at wot and the only way this'll happen is by adjusting lamfa or kflbts. I know some prefer kflbts And the fact it's triggered by EGT to enrichen, but surely leaving it stock is potentially dangerous to the engine?

yes they do

see lots of them...

usually from mobile chaps selling cheap maps.. BUT not exclusively.. Also seen others who have a "name" also install such maps...
go figure....

westies was one of em... lean as you like map... made reasonable power, but stock fueling and egt's were mental... which had cracked most things manifold/turbo wise..

 

[Pedrosousa]

I was pointing out most on the non specailist tuners will use editing SW which offers a basic map packs just to wack up the load, timing and boost limiters on ME * ecu which are lambda 1* based. If they are lucky they will tune a map with KFLBTS which is not set to 1 like 0261204899 if they are unlucky they will tune 0261207952 which has KFLBTS set to 1 across the board.


But saying that even Damos, A2l files and supermap pack get the LAMFA X-axis wrong converting it into 16bitLo/Hi not Hi/Lowhich can confuse some tuners.


IMO tuning the fuel via LMFA gets the best results.

Nick, can LAMFA be used to tune fuel in narrowband ECU's???

 

[Pedrosousa]

Excuse my ignorance but do some tuners really just turn up the load timing and boost limiters and leave lamfa stock? Surely it's basic good practice when you run increased loads and timings to enrich the fuel to 12-12.5 at wot and the only way this'll happen is by adjusting lamfa or kflbts. I know some prefer kflbts And the fact it's triggered by EGT to enrichen, but surely leaving it stock is potentially dangerous to the engine?

Some tuners set the activation temperature of BTS to 200ºC (originally +- 850) and use KFLBTS to tune fuel... KFLBTS it's super rich the map must be edited if the idea it's to set fuel with this.

 

[sideways steve]

I find this astounding that a tuner up here that is supposedly known as "reputable" and one which someone on this board was recently trying to arrange a group buy on remaps with, is pumping out maps like this on peoples cars :-(

I was actually tempted to have them remap my car even though years back when I had my Mk2 Golf I had a bad experience with this company whereby it did make me wonder how good they actually were.

On here this same company have had some very good feedback and they have been recommended to people quite a few times. They are also highly spoken of on ScottishVag.

This needs to be stopped as its only a matter of time before someone pays good money for a remap and ends up with a blown engine.

Whats even worse is that this tuner does have a rolling road and could easily check these maps on a car by car basis but clearly he either is not doing so or he doesnt know what he is doing, both of which are very concerning !

Well I know I will deffo not be going there now for a remap. I think I will wait longer until I can afford a trip down to Badger 5 as he seems to be one of the only people that genuinley has a clue what there doing !