I guess that answers it, basicly the whole exercise has netted me about 30BHP over a chipped K03. Not worth the money when it's looked at like that is it...GRRRRRR
TQS progress thread, From STD-Scroll-Eliminator.
- Thread starter Broken Byzan
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I guess that answers it, basicly the whole exercise has netted me about 30BHP over a chipped K03. Not worth the money when it's looked at like that is it...GRRRRRR
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On a serious note it sounds like the support hardware is the issue but Eliminator kits run way more power on stock manifolds and so do the Frankenturbo Turbo's so I can't see it being the manifold being a problem here.
May be replace the IC pipes or the whole set-up and this may work better but clearly something not quite right here or these turbo's just run way to hot.
May be replace the IC pipes or the whole set-up and this may work better but clearly something not quite right here or these turbo's just run way to hot.
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You've gained more than 30hp tbh.
The stock K03 wont do any more than about 195hp (and yes, i know there are dyno plots showing more, but again, its just a happy dyno lying its nads off), and youve posted just over 240, so more like 45hp gain, with little to no downsides (ie no lag etc)
Personally, i feel the turbine housing is just far too small. Even though its been bored out and fitted with a bigger wheel, the housing itself (the snail part) is still ****** tiny. If you look down the turbine manifold inlet, at the opening that opens out into the snail part, it narrows down to a hole not much larger than a 5pence. I can take some pics to show you what i mean if you want.
Frankenturbos may seem to deliver more, but i'm highly doubtful of any US dyno figures, as they always seem wildly different to what UK cars on properly calibrated dynos actually get, and as minhea says, they may well just be running full bore, rather than with a nice safety margin.
I think if your starting from scratch, with a bone stock 1.8T, then a T28 manifold and some GT series unit is the way to go, be it either the GT2556 that Lee has, or one of the bigger units like the 28RS etc.
As it stands, you got the turbo for a good price iirc, and have only really spent out on a manifold (ignoring general supporting mods like the injectors, MAF, exhaust etc, because those are generic to any turbo)
The stock K03 wont do any more than about 195hp (and yes, i know there are dyno plots showing more, but again, its just a happy dyno lying its nads off), and youve posted just over 240, so more like 45hp gain, with little to no downsides (ie no lag etc)
Personally, i feel the turbine housing is just far too small. Even though its been bored out and fitted with a bigger wheel, the housing itself (the snail part) is still ****** tiny. If you look down the turbine manifold inlet, at the opening that opens out into the snail part, it narrows down to a hole not much larger than a 5pence. I can take some pics to show you what i mean if you want.
Frankenturbos may seem to deliver more, but i'm highly doubtful of any US dyno figures, as they always seem wildly different to what UK cars on properly calibrated dynos actually get, and as minhea says, they may well just be running full bore, rather than with a nice safety margin.
I think if your starting from scratch, with a bone stock 1.8T, then a T28 manifold and some GT series unit is the way to go, be it either the GT2556 that Lee has, or one of the bigger units like the 28RS etc.
As it stands, you got the turbo for a good price iirc, and have only really spent out on a manifold (ignoring general supporting mods like the injectors, MAF, exhaust etc, because those are generic to any turbo)
Slight update, i took my baby to a Rolling road day and has some disasterous results.
she just seemed to rev and rev but give no real power.
She did look good tho
The results speak for themselves, suffice to say i wasn't happy.
Compare to the MRC plot
and the last working example of the Tuneside one
Something is consistanly allowing the power to drop off at 5500 ish, even the OEM ECU and std TQS map did it.
So is it the turbo? Suddenly running completely out of puff, unlike it's sister turbo fittted to Lees car that still produced power higher up the revs
I had some logs done at the same time, but they don't make sense TBH, the N75 seems to be nailed open, and the MAF under reading ( possibly due to scaling in the map)
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc...W9IeUJSZDVPTFlhUUZtWkE&hl=en&authkey=CMKJtN8K
Also ran a Vagcom scan and found that the 00561 code has come back again
VAG-COM Version: Release 311.2-N
Control Module Part Number: 06A 906 018 CJ
Component and/or Version: 1.8L R4/5VT MOTR HS D01
Software Coding: 04001
Work Shop Code: WSC 05314
2 Faults Found:
18259 - Powertrain Data Bus: Missing Message from ABS Controller
P1851 - 35-00 - -
00561 - Mixture Adaptation
14-00 - Adaptation Limit (Add) Exceeded
The first code is to be expected due to the ECU expecting to be able to contact the ABS ECU for CAN bus for the ESP that the Golf/A4 would have had. Its possible i could use an ABS ECU from a facelift S4 to keep the EDL and add the ESP, but TBH it doesn't affect how it works or throw it into limp.
There has been a suggestion that my FMIC pipwork may have an effect, but at these power outputs i cannot see that being an issue yet
she just seemed to rev and rev but give no real power.
She did look good tho
The results speak for themselves, suffice to say i wasn't happy.
Compare to the MRC plot
and the last working example of the Tuneside one
Something is consistanly allowing the power to drop off at 5500 ish, even the OEM ECU and std TQS map did it.
So is it the turbo? Suddenly running completely out of puff, unlike it's sister turbo fittted to Lees car that still produced power higher up the revs
I had some logs done at the same time, but they don't make sense TBH, the N75 seems to be nailed open, and the MAF under reading ( possibly due to scaling in the map)
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc...W9IeUJSZDVPTFlhUUZtWkE&hl=en&authkey=CMKJtN8K
Also ran a Vagcom scan and found that the 00561 code has come back again
VAG-COM Version: Release 311.2-N
Control Module Part Number: 06A 906 018 CJ
Component and/or Version: 1.8L R4/5VT MOTR HS D01
Software Coding: 04001
Work Shop Code: WSC 05314
2 Faults Found:
18259 - Powertrain Data Bus: Missing Message from ABS Controller
P1851 - 35-00 - -
00561 - Mixture Adaptation
14-00 - Adaptation Limit (Add) Exceeded
The first code is to be expected due to the ECU expecting to be able to contact the ABS ECU for CAN bus for the ESP that the Golf/A4 would have had. Its possible i could use an ABS ECU from a facelift S4 to keep the EDL and add the ESP, but TBH it doesn't affect how it works or throw it into limp.
There has been a suggestion that my FMIC pipwork may have an effect, but at these power outputs i cannot see that being an issue yet
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Interestingly, tunesides "best effort" shows a very similar graph shape to what MRC managed, with peak power hitting at almost exactly the same point and dropping a similar amount.
Which does suggest something really is reaching its limits around there? Your turbo is probably just flat out and its boost is naturally dropping off.
I think your N75 was nailed open as the ECU will have been trying to add boost to reach its target load, but something was stopping it happening?
Which does suggest something really is reaching its limits around there? Your turbo is probably just flat out and its boost is naturally dropping off.
I think your N75 was nailed open as the ECU will have been trying to add boost to reach its target load, but something was stopping it happening?
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stab in the dark here but could it be an issue with the wastgate requiring some adjustment or even a DV issue!!!
Ever way this does not sound good.
Ever way this does not sound good.
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Do you have any lambda logs?
Do you know what happens when the power drops off at 5.5k? IMO it looks like a maf over limit cut which could be from too much air flow being draw in or a over reading duff maf.
On the MRC graph you can see the car having issues at 5.5k ?
As for thre tuneside graph there filter is set to the max to iron out the dips.
These motronic5 controlled engine car be just as smooth as a DBW me7.5 engine but it take a lot of time getting them right. agu 1.8t golf k02 -024 275bhp picture by r-tech-rr-graphs - Photobucket
Do you know what happens when the power drops off at 5.5k? IMO it looks like a maf over limit cut which could be from too much air flow being draw in or a over reading duff maf.
On the MRC graph you can see the car having issues at 5.5k ?
As for thre tuneside graph there filter is set to the max to iron out the dips.
These motronic5 controlled engine car be just as smooth as a DBW me7.5 engine but it take a lot of time getting them right. agu 1.8t golf k02 -024 275bhp picture by r-tech-rr-graphs - Photobucket
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Just seen your logs, the 007 blocks show a narrow band volts of .9v which is a rough sign of running rich which is is ok as your not at too lean.
Can you get a log of request load v actual load v N75 on block 25? along with blocks 002 MAF
and the maths behind load mapping 10.500ms will = 19psi with stock maf mapping scale and the 80mm bigger housing, what peak held boost are you seeing 1.3bar? Going by the logs it also looks like your running the stock 673kg/hr maf scale in the mapping?
Nick
Can you get a log of request load v actual load v N75 on block 25? along with blocks 002 MAF
and the maths behind load mapping 10.500ms will = 19psi with stock maf mapping scale and the 80mm bigger housing, what peak held boost are you seeing 1.3bar? Going by the logs it also looks like your running the stock 673kg/hr maf scale in the mapping?
Nick
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Thanks Nick, The wife was trying to save you a job.lol
Seems out of the frying pan etc..
I can log those tomorrow if you like, just for comparison.
I see 1.6bar max under high gear load which reduces down to 1.2, by then i have changed up.
What gear/revs etc would you like to see the logs in? 2k to redline in 3rd or 4th?
The MAF is the 76mm VR6 housing with an AJL element fitted. It was replaced just before Christmas due to the old one going south
Seems out of the frying pan etc..
I can log those tomorrow if you like, just for comparison.
I see 1.6bar max under high gear load which reduces down to 1.2, by then i have changed up.
What gear/revs etc would you like to see the logs in? 2k to redline in 3rd or 4th?
The MAF is the 76mm VR6 housing with an AJL element fitted. It was replaced just before Christmas due to the old one going south
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Isnt it normal to see .9v at full throttle?
A narrow band sensor hits .9v at around 14:1 AFR, and at full throttle your likely to be down around 12:1.
I've viewed lambda voltages on a few cars over the years, and they all peg at just under 1v at full throttle.
I too wanted to see what happens to the fuelling/boost at 5.5k, unfortunately the dyno run at vizeu seemed to give an appauling result for some reason.
A narrow band sensor hits .9v at around 14:1 AFR, and at full throttle your likely to be down around 12:1.
I've viewed lambda voltages on a few cars over the years, and they all peg at just under 1v at full throttle.
I too wanted to see what happens to the fuelling/boost at 5.5k, unfortunately the dyno run at vizeu seemed to give an appauling result for some reason.
Back to back with wideband or emulating with my Innovate system .9v would give an A/F ratio of around 11.0:1
There is a wide window for reading at stoichiometric value .2 - .75. The ideal stoichiometric voltage lwould be around .6v, but once the reading below .2v and above .75v is only a guide and the sensor can read wrong (this is why they are narrow band sensors).
The motronic m3.8 ecus can work out the fuel from a base line lamda value of 1 and an injector constant map (Grundanpassungskonstant) which can work the lambda values out based on rpm/airflow/temps. So as long as the mapping is good the ecu only needs to know the correct lamnda 1 value and if the fuel is on the rich or lean side of .6v.
There is a wide window for reading at stoichiometric value .2 - .75. The ideal stoichiometric voltage lwould be around .6v, but once the reading below .2v and above .75v is only a guide and the sensor can read wrong (this is why they are narrow band sensors).
The motronic m3.8 ecus can work out the fuel from a base line lamda value of 1 and an injector constant map (Grundanpassungskonstant) which can work the lambda values out based on rpm/airflow/temps. So as long as the mapping is good the ecu only needs to know the correct lamnda 1 value and if the fuel is on the rich or lean side of .6v.
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but at full throttle your nowhere near stoich, which is why the ECU goes open loop, and uses its map plus any adaptions that it made while running closed loop.
The ecu need a base line of lambda 1 this then works from there using reading from maf and adaption constants.
Looking at the logs below it clamps at 0.92v which is telling me its running easy lambda 0f 0.80 - 0.75 if not lower.
Looking at the logs below it clamps at 0.92v which is telling me its running easy lambda 0f 0.80 - 0.75 if not lower.
Ok been out, stuck some super in and went on my fav private road for some logging.
Mostly 3rd, but last bit i did 3rd and 4th to almost Redline
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc...213WWVTbDBXSVY0c2d1Wnc&hl=en&authkey=CPP_3psG
Mostly 3rd, but last bit i did 3rd and 4th to almost Redline
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc...213WWVTbDBXSVY0c2d1Wnc&hl=en&authkey=CPP_3psG
Logs look fine imo, not working the turbo too hard as you have load of head room on the n75% duty cycle, fuel is rich not lean, requested boost in being matched near enough across the whole band part from the top end which could do with a fine tweak on the N75 map. Can you feel the car dump the power?
All I can think of is the MAF limit map which is based on MAF vs rpm not peak maf flow, so the limit point can be 150gs at 4500rpm but if your pulling 170gs then the power will cut. I just max this map to its upper limit. I will have a look at your stop map tomorrow and see what the limiter rpm points are. Can you email the logs direct to me nick@bigbhp.co.uk
Cheers mate, You must have read my mind, i was going to ask for a direct email.
Is there any fault with the car that would cause it to do this? TBH it was like this from day one, but was just clutching straws.
Is there any fault with the car that would cause it to do this? TBH it was like this from day one, but was just clutching straws.
I have done this mistake a few time on my customers cars over the last 5 years, with stage 1 mapping there is no need to touch the MAF limiter map, but as soon as a boosted bigger turbo is fitted it can trigger it, with my customer its in 4 gear WOT around 70-80mph.
But I cannot be 100% sure as with the logs you posting its not dropping the power off. You could always ask your tuner to see if they have raised the MAF limiter
With a ecu requested performance cut you should see request load of 5.5ms and n75%dc of 5%. Can you get the car to dump the power on demand? of so can you get a log of the same blocks?
Well a completely counter productive few weeks.
Popped back to MRC to address the problems, Doug took her inside and logged it on the rollers a few times measuring a few different blocks.
Now i don't have the logs yet, but suffice to say it was maxing out at 150gs, Doug said it was pulling 170 odd when they mapped it and suggested the MAF was goosed.
Luckily i had the VR6 element in the boot and swapped that in... That got me to 160, but then the scalling would have been out as the map was scaled to utilise a VR6 housing and AJL sensor.
So, i came away a few gallons of petrol lighter, but the car no closer to being fixed.
As the fault seems to be something that developed from the initial mapping session to my drive home, i now have to pay for any subsequent map checks and tweaks.
GULP !!
I have since bought a new MAF from VW @ £102, i tweaked the method of fitting the MAF into the airbox, added a cold air feed and put the brand new element in... It's the ****** same...BOOOHOOOOO 150 GS @ 6k ish
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc...WFOUGZUeldxZGlBNm9lU1E&hl=en&authkey=CNj-x4kH
Not best pleased TBH, but hey. The splutter @ 5 k ish seems to still be there and can be seen on the log by a drop in air flow.
I have also changed all of the hose clips to HCS Hi Grips instead of the Mikalor bolt style ones. I am hoping that maybe @ 1.5 bar i have a leak i perhaps didn't have before...
Need to check that, Job for tomorrow now
Popped back to MRC to address the problems, Doug took her inside and logged it on the rollers a few times measuring a few different blocks.
Now i don't have the logs yet, but suffice to say it was maxing out at 150gs, Doug said it was pulling 170 odd when they mapped it and suggested the MAF was goosed.
Luckily i had the VR6 element in the boot and swapped that in... That got me to 160, but then the scalling would have been out as the map was scaled to utilise a VR6 housing and AJL sensor.
So, i came away a few gallons of petrol lighter, but the car no closer to being fixed.
As the fault seems to be something that developed from the initial mapping session to my drive home, i now have to pay for any subsequent map checks and tweaks.
GULP !!
I have since bought a new MAF from VW @ £102, i tweaked the method of fitting the MAF into the airbox, added a cold air feed and put the brand new element in... It's the ****** same...BOOOHOOOOO 150 GS @ 6k ish
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc...WFOUGZUeldxZGlBNm9lU1E&hl=en&authkey=CNj-x4kH
Not best pleased TBH, but hey. The splutter @ 5 k ish seems to still be there and can be seen on the log by a drop in air flow.
I have also changed all of the hose clips to HCS Hi Grips instead of the Mikalor bolt style ones. I am hoping that maybe @ 1.5 bar i have a leak i perhaps didn't have before...
Need to check that, Job for tomorrow now
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Thinking outside the box for a moment...
I see you did the ICM delete above. Could it be that there has been a deterioration in the condition of the ignition system since the initial mapping? Perhaps the spark is getting blown out at the point where the power is dropping off, hence no explosion and slowing of turbine, thus lower MAF reading past this point?
I see you did the ICM delete above. Could it be that there has been a deterioration in the condition of the ignition system since the initial mapping? Perhaps the spark is getting blown out at the point where the power is dropping off, hence no explosion and slowing of turbine, thus lower MAF reading past this point?
According to MRC it's fine. The ICM delete was done before the map at MRC. It had crossed my mind, but i am assured it's all ok on that score
Ok guys, minor update. New MAF element fitted into VR6 housing, I also tidied some plumbing up and took her for a blast to see what difference the required MAF would make.....
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc...UeldxZGlBNm9lU1E&hl=en&authkey=CNj-x4kH#gid=0
The answer is none.
Still 150g/s at redline. I am not happy TBH I now have to take the car back and am expected to pay for a few hours labour for them to tweak the map. I am struggling to see how when the car is the same as i drove it away except with new parts which make no odds to her/
I cannot believe how hard it is to find a reliable tuner. GGGRRRRR
I have asked MRC many times about the logs topping out and flat lining and get no answer. Anyone have any idea? As it seems too early for the turbo to run out of puff so severely.
I am too deep into this to walk away now, so they have me over a barrel now. I cannot get it re done till May now due to funds/petrol money.
A bit of bling for now seeing the tuning isn't going so well. I needed a bunch of tyres so this worked out only a nadger more expensive, and the RS4 calipers could also go on
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc...UeldxZGlBNm9lU1E&hl=en&authkey=CNj-x4kH#gid=0
The answer is none.
Still 150g/s at redline. I am not happy TBH I now have to take the car back and am expected to pay for a few hours labour for them to tweak the map. I am struggling to see how when the car is the same as i drove it away except with new parts which make no odds to her/
I cannot believe how hard it is to find a reliable tuner. GGGRRRRR
I have asked MRC many times about the logs topping out and flat lining and get no answer. Anyone have any idea? As it seems too early for the turbo to run out of puff so severely.
I am too deep into this to walk away now, so they have me over a barrel now. I cannot get it re done till May now due to funds/petrol money.
A bit of bling for now seeing the tuning isn't going so well. I needed a bunch of tyres so this worked out only a nadger more expensive, and the RS4 calipers could also go on
Fancy giving my car a pollish? Yours looks pretty good now. There seems to be no simple way to get good power out of these cars.
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Ian, looks like big turbo is the way to go mate. Too late for me, but save yourself.......LMAO
Mate, I need to polish mine, it's only because it's wet it looks shiney.
These wheels are prob temporary until i can afford some MTMs, I NEED them in my life.
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When we get back to Bill's from going over to AH Fabs to get my new FMIC mate I'll boost leak check your car and get a fresh set of eyes on it...
Andy was over today with his A3 TQS and I found a split pipe that cost him 30bhp... anything to help as you know great mate... :thumbsup:
Love the wheels!!...
<tuffty/>
Andy was over today with his A3 TQS and I found a split pipe that cost him 30bhp... anything to help as you know great mate... :thumbsup:
Love the wheels!!...
<tuffty/>
Yeah i had the update a few mins ago,LOL
No worries mate, maybe it's something simple. Shame its no wheel drive with the prop off, but hey ho.LOL
The wheels are ET35 ,8 inch with some Conti 225/40 x 18 tyres on there.
A little had to come off the outside edge of the calipers and the balancing weights had to be moved to clear,But i got the RS4 brakes on finally
No worries mate, maybe it's something simple. Shame its no wheel drive with the prop off, but hey ho.LOL
The wheels are ET35 ,8 inch with some Conti 225/40 x 18 tyres on there.
A little had to come off the outside edge of the calipers and the balancing weights had to be moved to clear,But i got the RS4 brakes on finally
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I still can't see it mate tbh... I just don't get why it wouldn't work... need to see it for myself and with just the rear shafts removed... happy to be proved wrong but I don't get how by disconnecting the prop at the back you have no drive from the front... thats essentially how my S3 works most of the time anyway...
<tuffty/>
Your quattro is haldex and the a4 is torsen and full time mechanical 4x4. Haldex is done electronicaly to put power to the back if the front loses grip.
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There is a theory that the fronts will drive irrespective of the state of the rear drive, so by dropping the prop while changing a mates clutch I checked it out so i now know for 100%.LOL
Foxmeister
Fired Up!
That's true, not as shiney as yours.lol
She is almost done, Votex lips front and rear, S4 skirts and a good polish. It will be maintainence after that
I think i will buy a DA and some more chemicals, i was going to pay someone to polish her but feel the money is best spent on bits i get to keep( i think)
She is almost done, Votex lips front and rear, S4 skirts and a good polish. It will be maintainence after that
I think i will buy a DA and some more chemicals, i was going to pay someone to polish her but feel the money is best spent on bits i get to keep( i think)
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The torsen acts like an open diff when theres no torque across it.
As a result, it would be the same as taking a FWD car and removing one driveshaft. The open diff in the FWD gearbox would send all the drive to the now-removed driveshaft, and you go nowhere. In exactly the same way, the centre diff in the quattro box would send all the drive to the disconnected rear prop flange, and none to the front diff.
As a result, it would be the same as taking a FWD car and removing one driveshaft. The open diff in the FWD gearbox would send all the drive to the now-removed driveshaft, and you go nowhere. In exactly the same way, the centre diff in the quattro box would send all the drive to the disconnected rear prop flange, and none to the front diff.
