CR K04 Stage 4 Hybrid, comparison to k04

IbanezDan51 said:
Welly/Bill,

As you know I blew my head, the guy rebuilding it says its going to need new exhaust valve guides which he is saying are £15 each plus VAT and obviously there are 8. He then said it may need new inlet ones too which then would be £15+VAT x 20....not good! Welly did an AGU head fit straight onto yours? Mine is an APY so think it will? Can I use a standard inlet manifold for now on an AGU head? Then get a big port one when I find one?

Reason asking is I have found a brand new head for £400. This is a genuine VW one and not a recon.

Or can I get away with just having the exhaust valve guides done and new valves?

Sorry for posting it here...but eventually it will coincide with the information as it is a hybrid ko4 car lol

Thanks!
Dan
Click to expand...
Dan, I only changed the exhaust guides on my AEB head as the inlets were fine... the head had over 100k of use on it so was pleased with that...

All 20v turbo heads will fit mate, mines an AMK (2001 S3) and I fitted an AEB head from a 97 A4 on it...

I use the std small port inlet manifold but use a transition phenolic gasket (Bill sells these) and ported it a tad... I don't appear to be getting any flow issues from this setup I have a GT3071

<tuffty/>
 
Update on TIP fitment to keeo this with the hybrid, as they can go hand in glove
Hi
Also being worked on in conjunction with the hybrid is a full bore 3" TIP to go on K04's
example prototype below
comparison of std tip and 3inch jobbie
3inch-tip-i.jpg

3inch-tip-h.jpg


Comprising the adaptor to keep the bends as compact as possible
3inch-k04-adaptor-1.jpg

3inch-k04-adaptor-2.jpg

3inch-k04-adaptor-3.jpg



okies.. been busy welding tonight and stuff..
3inch-tip-a.jpg

3inch-tip-b.jpg

3inch-tip-c.jpg

3inch-tip-d.jpg

3inch-tip-e.jpg

3inch-tip-f.jpg

3inch-tip-g.jpg


not tried it on a car yet... maybe over the weekend, sunday perhaps
 
Will you be offering different options for the port layouts on the tip bill?
 
well.. hmmm.
erm

you know... erm.. when thing dont quite go as expected...
screened maf's descreened maf's flow more.. and all that jazz... and the extra power...

Or Not..

3" TIP fitted to wellys s3
comparison run to last time on dyno. differences being 3 inch tip, some tweaks to add more fuel to go with more airflow, and reverting to screen maf and....

well....
hmm....

was'nt expecting this result...













DynoIT%20-%20S300YES-3inch-tip-screen-maf-final.jpg


:thumbsup:
 
3inch tip airflow, descreen maf
272g/s max logged compared to before 3 inch tip where max was 254g/s, however on this car (non wideband) the apparent airflow and change to afr's made a difference. Clearly more airflow as it ran leaner.. added 5% fuel and it returned to as before, making slightly more power.

New 3 Inch TIP log
Code: 
Sunday	31	October	2010	17:27:07:61786	VCDS Version: Release 10.6.1	Data version: 20100831									
8L0 906 018 N		1.8L R4/5VT     G   0002													
															
	Group A:	'002				Group B:	'020				Group C:	'118			
		RPM	Load	Inj. On Time	Mass Flow		Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization		RPM	Temperature	Load	Absolute Pres.
	TIME					TIME					TIME				

	31.78	3200	191.7	15.99	138.72	32.08	0	0	0	3	31.49	3040	21	95.3	1880
	32.69	3720	191.7	16.81	145.36	32.98	3	3	0	2.3	32.39	3560	21	82.7	2490
	33.59	4160	191.7	17.63	181.69	33.89	3	3	0	2.3	33.29	3960	20	85.5	2540
	34.49	4640	191.7	18.04	207.72	34.79	3	2.3	0	4.5	34.19	4480	19	82.4	2540
	35.39	5120	191.7	18.04	228	35.69	2.3	2.3	0	4.5	35.09	4920	19	83.1	2540
	36.29	5520	191.7	18.45	247.61	36.59	2.3	5.3	0	3.8	35.99	5360	20	83.9	2540
	37.19	5720	191.7	18.45	257.5	37.49	2.3	5.3	0	3.8	36.89	5680	21	87.1	2520
	38.09	5960	191.7	18.45	258.36	38.39	2.3	5.3	0	3.8	37.79	5880	22	92.2	2520
	38.99	6200	191.7	18.45	259.67	39.29	2.3	4.5	0	3	38.69	6120	24	95.3	2500
	39.89	6480	191.7	18.45	265.94	40.19	2.3	4.5	0	3	39.59	6360	24	95.3	2490
	40.79	6760	191.7	17.22	266.39	41.09	1.5	4.5	0	3	40.49	6640	26	95.3	2470
	41.69	7040	191.7	16.81	270.44	41.99	1.5	3.8	0	2.3	41.39	6960	27	95.3	2460
	42.59	7360	191.7	15.99	272.67	42.89	1.5	3.8	0	2.3	42.29	7280	29	95.3	2420
	43.49	7680	183.5	11.48	266.58	43.79	0	0	0	0	43.19	7560	30	95.3	2430

Previous logs descreened before 3" TIP
Code: 
Saturday	23	October	2010	17:48:48:61786	VCDS Version: Release 10.6.1	Data version: 20100831									
8L0 906 018 N		1.8L R4/5VT     G   0002													

	Group A:	'002				Group B:	'020				Group C:	'118			
		RPM	Load	Inj. On Time	Mass Flow		Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization		RPM	Temperature	Load	Absolute Pres.
	TIME					TIME					TIME				
Marker	STAMP	 /min	 %	 ms	 g/s	STAMP	°KW	°KW	°KW	°KW	STAMP	 /min	°C	 %	 mbar

	48.83	1440	82	5.33	23.17	49.13	0	0	0	0	49.43	1640	24	95.3	1100
	49.73	1760	87.2	5.74	28.94	50.03	0	0	0	0	50.33	2040	23	95.3	1190
	50.63	2200	106.8	6.97	45.83	50.93	0	0	0	0	51.23	2440	21	95.3	1370
	51.53	2560	122.6	7.79	62.06	51.84	0	0	0	0	52.14	2800	21	95.3	1670
	52.44	2920	171.4	12.3	102.92	52.73	0	0	0	0	53.04	3240	21	77.6	2370
	53.34	3440	191.7	15.58	141.31	53.64	0	0	0	0	53.93	3680	21	81.6	2500
	54.24	3840	191.7	16.81	154.53	54.53	0	0	0	3	54.84	4120	20	83.5	2510
	55.14	4280	191.7	16.81	179.42	55.44	3	0	0	3	55.74	4560	21	82.7	2530
	56.04	4720	191.7	17.22	198.17	56.34	3	0	0	3	56.64	5000	21	83.9	2520
	56.94	5160	191.7	17.63	222.33	57.24	2.3	0	0	2.3	57.54	5440	21	85.5	2500
	57.84	5520	191.7	18.04	236.33	58.14	2.3	0	0	2.3	58.44	5760	23	89.4	2450
	58.74	5840	191.7	17.22	243.58	59.04	2.3	0	0	2.3	59.34	6040	24	95.3	2430
	59.64	6080	191.7	16.81	246.5	59.94	1.5	0	0	1.5	60.24	6240	25	95.3	2420
	60.54	6320	191.7	16.81	247.31	60.84	1.5	0	0	1.5	61.14	6480	27	95.3	2400
	61.44	6560	191.7	16.4	251.61	61.74	1.5	0	0	1.5	62.04	6760	28	95.3	2360
	62.34	6840	191.7	15.58	253.64	62.64	1.5	0	0	0.8	62.94	7040	30	95.3	2340
	63.24	7160	186.5	14.76	254.83	63.54	0.8	0	0	0.8	63.84	7360	31	95.3	2300
	64.14	7480	178.2	13.94	252.33	64.44	0.8	0	0	0.8	64.73	7240	32	0	1750

3inch tip and screened maf
3inch tip and screened maf
Code: 
31	October	2010	17:49:37:61786	VCDS Version: Release 10.6.1	Data version: 20100831									
	1.8L R4/5VT     G   0002													

Group A:	'002				Group B:	'020				Group C:	'118			
	RPM	Load	Inj. On Time	Mass Flow		Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization	Idle Stabilization		RPM	Temperature	Load	Absolute Pres.
TIME					TIME					TIME				
STAMP	 /min	 %	 ms	 g/s	STAMP	°KW	°KW	°KW	°KW	STAMP	 /min	°C	 %	 mbar

	30.89	1480	32.3	2.46	9.14	31.19	0	0	0	0	30.59	1520	26	0	1010
	31.79	1480	78.2	5.33	23.08	32.09	0	0	0	0	31.49	1440	26	95.3	1000
	32.69	1600	84.2	5.33	25.92	32.99	0	0	0	0	32.39	1480	24	95.3	1060
	33.59	2000	92.5	6.15	37.08	33.89	0	0	0	0	33.29	1880	23	95.3	1130
	34.49	2360	109.8	6.97	50.78	34.8	0	0	0	0	34.2	2240	21	95.3	1270
	35.39	2760	134.6	9.43	74.44	35.69	0	0	0	0	35.09	2640	21	95.3	1470
	36.29	3200	191.7	15.99	139.39	36.58	3	0	3	3	35.99	3040	21	95.3	1910
	37.18	3680	191.7	16.81	144.22	37.49	3	0	3	5.3	36.89	3520	21	82.7	2490
	38.09	4120	191.7	17.63	169.94	38.39	2.3	0	2.3	5.3	37.78	3960	20	83.9	2540
	38.99	4640	191.7	18.04	199.56	39.29	2.3	0	2.3	4.5	38.69	4480	20	82.4	2540
	39.89	5120	191.7	18.04	225.11	40.19	2.3	0	2.3	4.5	39.59	4960	20	83.5	2540
	40.79	5520	191.7	18.86	238.06	41.09	2.3	0	1.5	4.5	40.49	5400	21	84.7	2530
	41.69	5760	191.7	18.45	244.83	41.99	1.5	0	1.5	3.8	41.39	5680	21	87.8	2510
	42.59	5960	191.7	18.04	247.31	42.89	1.5	0	1.5	3.8	42.29	5920	23	93.3	2490
	43.49	6200	191.7	17.63	251.94	43.79	1.5	0	1.5	3.8	43.19	6120	24	95.3	2470
	44.39	6480	191.7	17.63	253.22	44.69	1.5	0	1.5	3	44.09	6400	25	95.3	2480
	45.29	6760	191.7	16.81	255.36	45.59	1.5	0	1.5	3	44.99	6680	27	95.3	2430
	46.19	7040	191.7	15.99	258.58	46.49	0.8	0	0.8	3	45.89	6960	27	94.9	2420
	47.09	7360	185.7	15.17	260.78	47.39	0.8	0	0.8	2.3	46.79	7240	29	95.3	2400
	47.99	6960	12.8	1.23	0	48.3	0	0	0	0	47.69	7640	30	0	2500


rule of thumb calc applied.. airflow divide 0.8 = power
we get 260g/s = 326bhp

pretty damned closed to dyno all things considered

:D
 
Last edited:
Some good results there. Were there any dyno runs done before the tip was installed on the day and any without the fuelling adjusted.

Nathan
 
s3dave said:
Wow...Thats a massive difference, how much as the extra fueling helped?
It would have been good to wack the fueling back and run again.....
Click to expand...

chaps.... wellys s3 is non wideband, and as such does not control afr closed loop to maintain a target afr....
because he has more airflow now, the fueling went leaner, and my adjustments have reverted the afr's to how they were before... no gains as such, it just ran leaner which when corrected to same afr's = makes more power.

on the later wideband controlled ecu's the bolt on extra airflow, will be compensated by ecu adjusting to achieve its requested afr, so will automatically make more power from the extra airflow, adding the correct fuel to suit.

see the airflow logs, and all is pretty clear on bolt on gains seen recorded etc
 
I thought the screen on the MAF was there to stabilise the incoming air. So for a wideband controlled S3's this is a very good bolt on mod as the ECU can adjust the fuelling to get the desired air/fuel ratio.

Any prices yet Bill.

Nathan
 
Last edited:
I will make some of these tips yes, now i have seen and measured gains myself. I dont sell or claim things which I cant realise.
This seems to have worked better than expected (better than I was expecting) and the screened maf vs descreened maf was quite a surprise.

The maf sensor is a sensitive thing, we knew that from the cars idle being upset when the dyno fans were witched on in unscreened mode (as welly had previously done to it) The screening is there to promote laminar airflow across the sensor for accurate/stable readings.. which can be achieved by more straight diameters worth of pipe upstream (but not practical in an s3)

we will review how welly finds it over the next few days.

TIP prototype will need a couple of mods to align things better, but it bolted on straight, zero fuss, and is pretty close 1st time thankfully.

Pleased its help make some real difference in power.
 
no no i didnt mean anything to say they wer false at all!, i just meant there too good to be true, not in a literal sense, just figure of speech, the gains are brilliant. no doubt there brilliant, i mean it was only logical there was going to be some difference, but i for one didnt think something so minor would give such good figures. its amazing the torque doesnt die down at all until 6200ishrpm!
 
S3 Nattie said:
I thought the screen on the MAF was there to stabilise the incoming air, will be coming out now though lol....
Click to expand...

The increase in power was due to having a screened MAF mate... Welly (and myself for that matter) de-screened the MAF a while back... would appear that this shows its not really something thats worth doing in this case...

I would leave it as it is unless you can prove on a dyno that it makes a difference.... I gained 20g/s de-screening mine but maybe that doesn't mean it translates to extra power...

During the mapping of Speedy Steves hybrid we saw very high airflow that didn't translate (MAF/0.8) to the power we saw on the dyno....

I shall be testing mine once mapping is sorted to see if it makes a difference...

Good work though Bill, looking good mate :thumbsup:

<tuffty/>
 
Thanks for that Paul, how come sometimes the airflow readings dont correlate with what the dyno says then.

Nathan
 
Jeeze, that's some increase. Why Oh Why can't i have a pretend 4wd car like the A3/S3 etc. Bill could fix mine for me then.

Prototype on the A4 due soon? LOL
 
superkarl said:
because they're not dead on accurate, they're never going to be, dyno or airflow readings. but gives a dam good idea.
Click to expand...

Long and short of it is that my Engine management is stupid when it comes to AFR readings. It simply doesn't do them. Under full boot, the thing just turns off and relies on the fuel tables being correct.

So... with the de-screened MAF on my S3, it looks like it's been giving an inaccurate flow readout due to being descreened. This being because the flow across the sensor isn't stable.

The engine management has been fuelling for what isn't there towards the top end, as it's been reading more flow than there actually is.

At that point, it made itself too rich, and consequently lost power.

The /0.8 rule on the 272 is 340 BHP. Which it just isn't.
 
superkarl said:
ahhh i see. i thought with the airflow figures descreened being better, thats the way to go. so what wer the dyno runs like descreened then?
Click to expand...

This is the interesting point here....

Yes, the air flow figures were higher. However, it would seem that the airflow figures being higher didn't help. Reason being that the descreening of the MAF (mine at least) caused instability in the airflow across the sensor.

Basically, it was false reporting, giving figures that weren't actually accurate. This, on the pre facelift non wideband cars, fecks the fuelling as it is completely airflow reliant.

Hence, screened MAF, correct reading, more power as the fuelling is right.
 
im assuming that isnt applicable to the later wideband cars then, the descreening wonte have that effect, as it knows exactly what its getting and can adjust more accurately
 
superkarl said:
im assuming that isnt applicable to the later wideband cars then, the descreening wonte have that effect, as it knows exactly what its getting and can adjust more accurately
Click to expand...

Well, yes. The point being that it CAN adjust. Mine can't adjust at all.
 
********, so the fuelling on my car will be all over the show then, that could also explain why my cars down on mpg and power!
 
superkarl said:
no no i didnt mean anything to say they wer false at all!, i just meant there too good to be true, not in a literal sense, just figure of speech, the gains are brilliant. no doubt there brilliant, i mean it was only logical there was going to be some difference, but i for one didnt think something so minor would give such good figures. its amazing the torque doesnt die down at all until 6200ishrpm!
Click to expand...

sorry i am cranky... been a long long weekend
appols..
 
superkarl said:
ahhh i see. i thought with the airflow figures descreened being better, thats the way to go. so what wer the dyno runs like descreened then?
Click to expand...

on a wideband controlled car, descreened should make more power and adjust its own fueling to suit..
wellys is'nt blessed with wideband and has to run against its fixed tables and loads which maf is a key contributor to... its 270g/s number caused a corresponding increase in fueling (too rich), and when maf screen housing was used the airflow did drop 10g/s or so but the fueling did'nt go too rich, beyond the additional fueling i had already added to make use of the 3 inch tips extra airflow it gave.

hoping this makes sense.. i am dog tired typing this right now
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Andrew@A.L.D
Fitted my CR K04 Hybrid today
Replies
10
Views
1K
RichA3Turbo
RichA3Turbo
C
K04 hybrid
Replies
7
Views
1K
Carllos3
C
I
Hybrid K04
Replies
2
Views
1K
badger5
badger5
vetch
Hybrid K04
Replies
9
Views
2K
vetch
vetch
J
Hybrid Turbo K04
Replies
113
Views
18K
liquids3
liquids3
Top
Back