CR K04 Stage 4 Hybrid, comparison to k04

I understand what you are saying... what I want to find out is, what are the limits of the standard internals and will a CR K04 hybrid exceed them? If the car is doing 320 lb/ft now, and has been for a few years on standard rods without any problems, then how much further, if any, can I push them without fear of them going skyward. I agree changing them is probably a good idea but if a K04 hybrid isn't going to produce any more torque, which having read the numbers on this thread it won't, what is the point in upgrading them?
 
Surely if you think the figures are low and throwing rods through the block, with your torque you must be bricking it?!

No personal experience yet as havent even got a remap (yet) but I think most people are going to tell you that you might as well do rods regardless of which turbo you put back on for piece of mind and the sake of forking out for a new engine the rods seem like a bargain!!!
 
If you are already making 320ftlbs then I would say you need rods now...

<tuffty/>
 
I don't know, maybe I am being naive but I am aware of lots of 1.8T's running decent power on standard pistons / rods without any problems. Sure if they throw a rod it's bad news but I am not convinced changing them on an S3 is necessary for the sort of figures that can be achieved from a K04 hybrid and at the moment I think it is more often than not undertaken as an often unnecessary insurance policy in most cases. If you see me crying by the side of the road feel free to mock by all means!

For example, I have a fair bit of experience with 16v VW engines being turbo charged and they are absolutely fine on standard Audi S2 internals up to a given point and then, fair enough, they need to be changed, but until that point is reached, they don't break. 20v rods obviously have a threshold too, I am just curious to see what it is and whether a CR K04 hybrid will exceed them?
 
i think the golden rule is 320ish + but some have been bending on modest maps normal turbos....like i say its your car it may be fine and ????? i would not mock anybody at the side of the road too..lol
 
Your call mate obviously, power isn't the problem here its the torque... granted the K04 isn't a power house but its spiky nature will nuke rods... simples... there are a few here that have bent them on on nothing more than a stage 1 remap let alone hybrids etc...

Good luck :)

<tuffty/>
 
Well I appreciate the info chaps, as I say you all have a lot more experience with these cars than I do hence the questions and the feedback is much appreciated. I just wanted to ask the question really, still in a dilemna as to which way to jump but perhaps leaving it as is would be the more sensible option!!!
 
What you have to ask yourself is are you happy with how your car is if so save the money and just get a new turbo. The one thing i like about having a slightly lower lbft is im not going to kill my clutch
 
Last edited:
AWDMk1 said:
Well I would perhaps agree but torque kills rods and the torque figures in this thread are comparitively low.....? Hence the confusion......
Click to expand...

hmmm. and wellys S3 bent a rod on revo stage 1, 1.2bar boost, and on my dyno makes 238lbft - now thats not bendy territory, but dyno's vary and mine seems to read lower than some other more happy dynos.
wellys was enough to break his rod, and some others on here are also suffering rod failure, so dont judge it by torque alone.
 
AWDMk1 said:
I understand what you are saying... what I want to find out is, what are the limits of the standard internals and will a CR K04 hybrid exceed them? If the car is doing 320 lb/ft now, and has been for a few years on standard rods without any problems, then how much further, if any, can I push them without fear of them going skyward. I agree changing them is probably a good idea but if a K04 hybrid isn't going to produce any more torque, which having read the numbers on this thread it won't, what is the point in upgrading them?
Click to expand...

get it mapped to suit then, less boost, no spike, and progressive build will ease the stress, BUT, its in "will it or wont it territory" imho rod wise.
 
Last edited:
Bill, yes the rolling road run was on Jabba's rollers which are DynoRace I believe, I will have to double check the printout to be 100% though.

I've been onto CR again this morning and been sensible / boring and went for a KKK K04 running standard spec other than uprated bearings to hopefully stop anything similar happening again. I quizzed Jabba today about the rods and they agreed 320lb / ft was getting toward the limits and also suggested that the cost of going hybrid inc. remap, 440's etc. would gain me little in terms of BHP per £ over the 290 it has already done..... therefore I'm going to leave things as they are and comfort myself with the thoughts that it has been like this for a good while now without any problems. If it goes Pete Tong then so be it and I'll get a stronger bottom end built next time!

Appreciate all the help though and this seems like a really good forum... also for those on the look out for turbo's I would definitely recommend CR, very helpful indeed and reasonable prices. I've dealt with AET in the past who are also good but CR certainly took the biscuit this time...
 
dimsport rollers are the "happy" ones, inertia only.

log your airflow and you will see a peak of 200g/s more than likely not 232g/s which 290bhp would require
 
How do I go about logging the airflow???
 
in vagcom, engine, block 002 or 003 shows mass airflow in g/s
if you simulated an acceleration run in 3rd/4th wot, you will see what peak airflow is measures.
other usefull blocks to look at whilst logging (you can log 3 blocks max) are blocks 020 which is timing correction CF, and block 115 which is request vs actual boost..
there are other usefull ones to see also, like 031 which is lambda request and actual, 112 which shows egt, and 118 which shows actual boost and induction temps, as well as n75 duty cycle.

the guide on airflow vs what power than can equate to is divide g/s by 0.8 and you get your approximate power. this has correlated on several cars I have dynod recently whilst logging with vagcom

have fun.. drive safe
 
Ah thanks very much for that... well I should have the car on the road this time next week all being well and I can lay my hands on a friends vagcom and lead so I will give it a go.....

I'll let you know the results so it will give you more data for your own dyno.

Cheers
 
would water meth help with rod failure?? i know its torque that damages them but if things are running a little cooler then every thing will be under less stress? opinions,,,
 
not as simple as that, no.

anyhows..
here's a comparison of a k04 (wellys) on logs of airflow vs steves hybrid

Where people thought the hybrid 'lagged' the k04, in airflow terms it did'nt at all as you can see.
k04-v-hybrid.jpg
 
My S3 engine made 260lb/ft of toque on a 4wd dyno at the wheels and the rods didnt let go....after 3000 miles the turbo did though. Im new on here with an Audi S3 engine in a Golf 4motion. Rebuilding the engine now...I have some questions so will post up a new thread.

Dan
 
hi mate im getting a cr hybrid turbo in the next 3 week should i get the rods first or will they be ok till i get money together plus do i have to change fuel pump and injectors straight away tar gaz
 
s3gazz said:
hi mate im getting a cr hybrid turbo in the next 3 week should i get the rods first or will they be ok till i get money together plus do i have to change fuel pump and injectors straight away tar gaz
Click to expand...

Rods, rods, rods. Don't skimp on them, it won't be beneficial in the long run.

Short term gain, long term loss.

Do it all at once - no problems that way.
 
cheers mate rods it is then any idears best place to get then from and what else would i need with the turbo like fuel pump and injectors tar gaz
 
Bill at Badger5 can sort with with IE Rods (The same I use).

I will be piloting VXR Injectors (470cc) on my hybrid build next week so I'd await the outcome of that.
 
s3gazz said:
hi mate im getting a cr hybrid turbo in the next 3 week should i get the rods first or will they be ok till i get money together plus do i have to change fuel pump and injectors straight away tar gaz
Click to expand...

keep a lid on the boost and aggression during mapping if no rods... but you wont realise the hybrids potential I fear
 
Yeah, the difference is around or about 30....

Like I said, I'll have a better idea on the 470s once mapped.
 
hi bill how much are the rods then and should i go 440 or 470 does it matter much between them both
 
rods £340, bearings £75 plus fitting + stuff
440's or 470's either will work when mapped to suit

we will see how wellys gets on when i do it in a couple of weeks
 
cheers mate ruf how much to fit rods will i need to fit new piston rings at same time and witch injectors are the best mate and will need bigger fuel pump with them tar badger
 
s3gazz said:
cheers mate ruf how much to fit rods will i need to fit new piston rings at same time and witch injectors are the best mate and will need bigger fuel pump with them tar badger
Click to expand...

£450 labour +vat plus gaskets bolts and stuff
the 480cc vxr ones may work out best value currently.. we'll see how they work in wellys soon
new rings not req'd usually.. light deglaze and clean up and reinstall
 
update:
okies.. small update.
Wellys been fitting his 034 mani..
whilst apart he brought the hybrid k04 along so I could port its wastegate as it was creeping under boost.

Pictures below of whats been done and required.
Std k04/Hybrid wastegate port
HYBRID-STD-1.jpg


Once ported by me
HYBRID-PORTED-1.jpg


Quite some difference :)

A std K04 throat
K04-STD-2.jpg


The ported Hybrid of Wellys
HYBRID-2.jpg


and finally, side by side comparison of a K04 and the ported hybrid
HYBRID-STD-VS-PORTED-1.jpg
 
Badger if i ported my turbo and fit the 034 manifold would i have any problems?

I know welly has a large port head and i have a ported small port but a extra 300cc so just trying to weigh things up weather its worth keeping the CR Hybrid and port it and fit the manifold or save for a GT3076r?
 
I think the engine capacity you have will show the hybrids limit up .. It would break 300bhp I think, but the top end rpms it would be flow restricted.
depends on how much power you want and what sort of power delivery you are after..
GT3076 etc is a leap from k04 based units..

a bigger turbo would seem more appropriate to your spec engine tho.. all down to your power goals.
 
Welly/Bill,

As you know I blew my head, the guy rebuilding it says its going to need new exhaust valve guides which he is saying are £15 each plus VAT and obviously there are 8. He then said it may need new inlet ones too which then would be £15+VAT x 20....not good! Welly did an AGU head fit straight onto yours? Mine is an APY so think it will? Can I use a standard inlet manifold for now on an AGU head? Then get a big port one when I find one?

Reason asking is I have found a brand new head for £400. This is a genuine VW one and not a recon.

Or can I get away with just having the exhaust valve guides done and new valves?

Sorry for posting it here...but eventually it will coincide with the information as it is a hybrid ko4 car lol

Thanks!
Dan
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Andrew@A.L.D
Fitted my CR K04 Hybrid today
Replies
10
Views
1K
RichA3Turbo
RichA3Turbo
C
K04 hybrid
Replies
7
Views
1K
Carllos3
C
I
Hybrid K04
Replies
2
Views
1K
badger5
badger5
vetch
Hybrid K04
Replies
9
Views
2K
vetch
vetch
J
Hybrid Turbo K04
Replies
113
Views
18K
liquids3
liquids3
Top
Back