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  1. #1
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    Safe speeding conviction?

    Can anyone help?

    Just been done for speeding and the traffic car was hidden behind a tall hedge parked on a disused garage forecourt. The device was a hand held camera. Can they still do you if the police vehicle is parked on private land?

    I've paid up (60 plus 3 points after 30 years with a clean licence) but just curious to know.

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  3. #2
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    As far as i'm aware, though i believe they need permission from the landowner.
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    There was a thing a while ago that if the cops were parked somewhere they shouldn't have been (double yellow lines, etc) then the speeding ticket is invalid.
    But I think the courts now throw it out if people try to use that as a reason to get off, as it is unrelated to them actually speeding.
    I guess if they caused you to speed or misled you into thinking you could go faster in someway by being there then it'd be considered.

    Another one was appealing against parking tickets because the traffic warden wasn't wearing his hat. Used to be a loophole which worked, now the courts just tell you to shut up for trying to use any means necessary to get away with something that you shouldn't have done.

    But I always appeal against speeding tickets and parking fines. Got off of many many parking tickets, bus lane tickets and one speeding ticket (all of which I don't think I should've been given).... and they just never pursued it. Not sure if that would work outside of London, but here in London they have SOOOOOOOOOOOO many to deal with there is a very good chance that your's just gets left on someone's desk and is never actioned.

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    You should pulled up and taken photos!


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  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by smokeymike View Post
    Can anyone help?
    I've posted the science-law on these issues somewhere else - I'll find it and link it. Meanwhile, Vascar, the speed detection equipment in police cars HAS to be calibrated every shift for it to be legally enforceable; and speed-guns have to be on tripods. Police policy and I'll find the details and post here
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  7. #6
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    Ta daaaa.

    http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/showthr...ht=#post960445

    http://www.kent.police.uk/About%20Ke...ies/p/p04.html

    "5.3. Prior to commencing a speed check using any portable detection device, the equipment must be tested in accordance with the Manufacturers instructions and Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) guidance. Where there is a difference between the two the ACPO guidance will take precedence. All tests carried out must be recorded by the officer for evidential purposes."

    Doesn't matter which police force policy you research, they all use the same equipment. The "manufacturers instructions" stipulate they must be mounted on tripods to "eliminate human error" which is supported in the ACPO guidance.

    I'll try and find that online but I know it exists in the operating manual.
    Last edited by The Maestro; 10th May 2010 at 20:34.
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  8. #7
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    VASCAR doesnt have to be checked every shift and a lot of the newer prolaser type handheld stuff is self calibrating too now from what I've seen.

    As for the traffic car being on private land its neither here or there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by A3Tom View Post
    VASCAR doesnt have to be checked every shift and a lot of the newer prolaser type handheld stuff is self calibrating too now from what I've seen
    Here we go.

    Tom, VASCAR does have to be calibrated every shift as the police policy stipulates. As for hand-held lasers, you are correct that they don't need calibrating but then I didn't say they didn't. They have to be placed on tripods as per their manufacturers operating instructions, supported by the ACPO for the following scientific reasons: "1 degree movement of the operator's hand moves the beam 6-7ft for every 100 yards the beam travels from the gun."

    The Prolaser II? Probably one of the worsed examples of inaccurate LIDAR in use and prolific for human error - as is the LTI 20-20. The use of these clever bits of equipment requires surgical-like training. You need to either: 1, hold them in your hand pointing at a spot on a moving car and MAINTAIN that spot to get a reading; or 2, mount it on a tripod so it reads the movement of a vehicle as it passes a fixed spot. Method 1 produced so many errors (no surprises) that they favoured method 2, nationally. Funny though .... how many speed-guns have you seen being held, and how many on tripods?

    Challenge the flimsy attempt of any copper trying to do you with a speed-gun and in 99.9% of cases it'll be dropped unless the documentation of any offence was recorded as it was legally supposed to be. No court will uphold anything that is unlawful and if demonstrated that a record of an offence was obtained unlawfully (in this instance with most of what I've said here). Equally, presenting this in court, no court will tell you to "oh shut up". A traffic warden not wearing his hat in an attempt to void a parking ticket maybe, but a police officer breaching operational protocol? No!
    Last edited by The Maestro; 10th May 2010 at 22:26.
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  10. #9
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    All our pro laser is done on tripods

    Calibration on vascar doesnt take place every day, they're checked but not calibrated. Calibration is done once a week over a measured mile or when things like tyres have been changed.
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    Ermm... and (going waaaaay back) if "the police vehicle was parked on private land"?

    Can I get an "oh shut up" please Judge!

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    Ermm... and (going waaaaay back) if "the police vehicle was parked on private land"?

    Can I get an "oh shut up" please Judge!

  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by A3Tom View Post
    All our pro laser is done on tripods
    "Our"??? Tom, I could surely prove that untrue, not only with the reports floating around my office, but with a quick tour of Solihull's A Grade SCO's. C'mon, so of all the police forces in the UK, Solihull opted to blow a significant amount of its budget money buying as many tripods as it has cameras? Don't think so - in fact I know so.

    Quote Originally Posted by A3Tom View Post
    Calibration on vascar doesn't take place every day, they're checked but not calibrated. Calibration is done once a week over a measured mile or when things like tyres have been changed.
    Lol, "checked"??? Calibration should take place "before every tour of duty", both Vascar and Police Pilots - it's the law - but the police break the law and breach protocol every day in a multitude of different ways. Oh, and that last bit is a quote from CMPG.

    I'm assuming the abbreviations are familiar to you
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  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by aythreee View Post
    Ermm... and (going waaaaay back) if "the police vehicle was parked on private land"?

    Can I get an "oh shut up" please Judge!
    If a police car is performing a SCO (Speed Check Operation) on "private land" without the consent of the landowner then they are as guilty of trespassing as any ordinary member of the public unless they are "pursuant to their duty ... blah blah ... traversing public and private land borders ...".

    So, your solicitor would be presenting:

    Such and such constabulary were performing a SCO on Mr. Blogs pub forecourt without his prior permission, when they were not following a criminal who wandered across his land border (or if they were/did then they decided to stop and do some speed checking instead lol) then yes, they would be trespassing.

    An SCO is planned, never random for many reasons, one being that they require permission from land owners if they fancy a particular spot that isn't public land.

    The issue with all these legal technicalities is that you need to know them at the point of being stopped where the police will wave you off with the fingers. To prove the point after the fact requires a solicitor which in view of the technical nitty-gritty is costly. But often worth paying for if it'll svae critical points on your licence
    Last edited by The Maestro; 11th May 2010 at 00:10.
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  15. #14
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    i dont work where I live and yes our pro laser is always done on a tripod...always.

    I'll ask at work about the calibration but I know when I've been out in a vascar equipped car the kits never been calibrated...only checked. However when you look through the log books for the car you see the weekly calibration carried out.
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  16. #15
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    And lets not forget that pro laser isnt a camera. Plus the cost of a tripod per dept is hardly bank breaking.
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  17. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by A3Tom View Post
    And lets not forget that pro laser isnt a camera. Plus the cost of a tripod per dept is hardly bank breaking.
    Didn't say Pro-Laser was a camera!!!! And if you knew what policy equipment got crossed off a budget sheet by your local DAC, a 95 tripod (yes, 95 depending), police officers would realise why they don't have half the **** they're supposed to. Across an entire division these things mount up to 100's of 1000's. Where would you start keeping bits and pieces in?

    Buddy, I'm not getting personal with you, we're obviously at different ends of the same professional territory.

    Weekly calibration sounds normal - but not enough to undo 99% of convictions.
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  18. #17
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    Sorry, I misread something you typed up there

    I'm really not blagging you when I say we do have all the kit for doing laser enforcement properly. Where I work our 'divisions' all had their own traffic depts and ours always made sure they had all the required kit. I'm sure there are people out there who do half a job etc but thats always going to happen sadly.

    Luckily where I am things seem to get 'done the right way' most of the time, when I speak to other officers who work in other areas its clear to see that its not the case across the board. Look at how different force areas deal with things too when it comes to speeding...2 miles down the road from my patch you'll get a speed awareness course because that force offer them...we dont.

    37mph in a 30mph is still the same 'crime' (even though its not a crime) but people arent being treated the same because of where it happened....which I dont agree with at all. If you get locked up for punching someone the 'punishment' would be the same...why not for speeding?....great eh?.

    Personally I'd sack off all the speed camera partnerships and employ more traffic officers to deal with each incident on its own merit rather than a cash generator but that costs money and officers using a bit of common sense wouldnt bring in the cash.
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    Quote Originally Posted by A3Tom View Post

    Personally I'd sack off all the speed camera partnerships and employ more traffic officers to deal with each incident on its own merit rather than a cash generator but that costs money and officers using a bit of common sense wouldnt bring in the cash.
    Good man, your not all that bad for a plod are you?
    Last edited by AidenUK; 11th May 2010 at 13:31.
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  20. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by AidenUK View Post
    Good man, your not all that bad for a plod are you?

    i was gonna say something along the same lines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ALPINE View Post
    i was gonna say something along the same lines.
    Credit where credit is due an all that..
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    to be honest i thought that if they were in a place where you cannot see them and there are no signs given to you in advance to say they are there then it is classed as false intrapment?? such as a spped camera near where i live, it was in the trees basically with no suitable vision on the hill verge. now that camera has been takin down due to this.

  23. #22
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    Get a foreign license and a dodgy accent works every time orrfiisar
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  24. #23
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    We have to be visible when we do it, big yellow coats..hats etc. Still manage to get loads of people that still dont spot us though
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  25. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by unkle View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by A3 XME View Post
    to be honest i thought that if they were in a place where you cannot see them and there are no signs given to you in advance to say they are there then it is classed as false intrapment?? such as a spped camera near where i live, it was in the trees basically with no suitable vision on the hill verge. now that camera has been takin down due to this.
    Aren't there any 30mph signs then - or do we just ignore them generally?
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  27. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by grim ree View Post
    Aren't there any 30mph signs then - or do we just ignore them generally?

    Not many 30's have repeaters these days, just street lights to give the clue as to what the limit is. Not that thats in the highway code or anything
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    No, my point is that any speed restriction has warning signs(30,40,50 etc) at the start of the restricted area - if you decide to ignore the restriction why whinge when you get caught? (I didn't - I just cursed and paid the 60!)
    Grim Ree

  29. #28
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    I'm quite lucky to have never got any points.... I'm sure my time will come though!
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  30. #29
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  31. #30
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    To be honest I've had a few close calls a few years back but nothing lately. Got stopped when I was 21 for doing 130 on the M40 (3am in the morning) and got an almighty telling off by a very pissed off cop.

    I thought that was it, game over but he told me after half an hour of telling me off that it was my lucky day. Had the road had any other cars on it I'd be in the **** but because it was empty he let me off. I think that half an hour of epic fail in the back of a Volvo filling my pants gave me a bloody good lesson!. I'd have been banned for that.

    T
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  32. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by A3Tom View Post
    To be honest I've had a few close calls a few years back but nothing lately...
    Nowdays its a wink, the secret handshake and away you go eh?
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  33. #32
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    Nope!. To be honest these days I'm pretty chilled when it comes to driving my own car. I just pootle about, I get my speed fix at work!.

    I'd never tell anyone that stopped me what I do...more likely to get made an example of and get the book thrown at you.
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