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  1. #41
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    That's exactly the reason I put my car in those spaces, i'm sick of door dents from old fiestas and other ****boxes that cost less than 2 tyres on my car.

    Why would you need to put a pushchair down the side of your car? surely the child could get out and into the chair itself round the back or you can pick it up.
    Chris

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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by A4Quattro View Post
    I always park in the parent and child spaces, having a child is not a disability so why should they get special treatment?
    With respect mate that is pretty selfish. There is a supermarket near us with an underground car park and the spaces are so narrow that you cannot open the rear doors wide enough to get a baby seat out. My daughter is 6 months old. So if my wife is on her own then she has to get my daughter out and literally put the childseat on the floor of the multistory while she pulls her car fully into the space. She then has to do this with the people she is holding up glowering at her impatiently from behind.

    Her only other option is pick a safe looking passing member of the public and ask them to hold her while she parks the car. But thats not a very pleasant experience for anyone in reality.

    A little bit of thought goes a long way.
    Ingolstance Read about my A6 HERE.

  4. #43
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    So I should suffer costly door dents should I?
    This is more an issue with the car park spaces than where I actually park.

    In reply to your issue, get your shopping delivered until your little one is a bit older, i'd rather do that then struggle or hand my baby over to some stranger.
    Chris

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  5. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by A4Quattro View Post
    So I should suffer costly door dents should I?
    This is more an issue with the car park spaces than where I actually park.

    In reply to your issue, get your shopping delivered until your little one is a bit older, i'd rather do that then struggle or hand my baby over to some stranger.
    I didnt say you should suffer more dents did I? I don't park in parent and child spaces when on my own but park sensibly and manage to avoid them.

    I'm not going to start defending how we shop to you, but that car park is used for all the parking in town. So for any shopping whether it be clothes, presents, haircut or whatever we need to park in that car park. So delivery is not always an option.
    Ingolstance Read about my A6 HERE.

  6. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by A4Quattro View Post
    So I should suffer costly door dents should I?
    This is more an issue with the car park spaces than where I actually park.
    Get a grip, man.
    we all suffer the same fate...but find ways and places to park without moaning about Parent & Child spaces.
    What next?
    Parking in Disabled spaces?


    In reply to your issue, get your shopping delivered until your little one is a bit older, i'd rather do that then struggle or hand my baby over to some stranger.
    Bravo. What a mature response.
    What if you don't live in an area where Supermarkets deliver?

    I hope one day you have the fun of a small-thing to manhandle in order to get your shopping.

    On second thaughts...with an attutude like that...best you not dilute the gene pool by having children.


    Does it really matter if you or I as able bodied, no children to look after people have to walk a few 10s of meters from a 'decent' space in order to allow someone with more to worry about a little bit less hassle?
    No...it doesn't.


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  7. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by A4Quattro View Post
    I always park in the parent and child spaces, having a child is not a disability so why should they get special treatment?

    If someone called me a c#*t over that, i would reply unless you want your wife and child to see you get beaten unconscious I suggest you jog on.
    There is absolutely no need to escalate a situation like that into something personal.

    A couple of pals of mine would not have even said anything, and the guy would have been eating his food through a straw for a couple of weeks.

    I think your my new best mate, thats exactly how i think! Somebody had the same beef with me one day, amazingly I had my dad in the car at the same time as we were going to get emergency Stella for the Champions league! I said "hes my dad, i'm his child, problem?"

    The look on his face! Yes its selfish but so are those chavved up mothers when they are ramming their pushchairs into when instore.
    Last edited by Lee_R; 19th December 2008 at 15:10.
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  8. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee_R View Post
    Yes its selfish but so are those chavved up mothers when they are ramming their pushchairs into when instore.
    My wife is not a chav thankyou, and neither would she treat your car with any less respect than her own.
    Ingolstance Read about my A6 HERE.

  9. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ess_Three View Post
    Get a grip, man.
    we all suffer the same fate...but find ways and places to park without moaning about Parent & Child spaces.
    What next?
    Parking in Disabled spaces?
    Maybe, then i'll just limp a bit.
    Because everyone else suffers doesn't mean I want or need to, lots of people have cancer, I don't want it, i'll take the stares safe in the knowledge that my car is safe.

    And before you say someone will scratch my car in reprisal, grow up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ess_Three View Post
    Bravo. What a mature response.
    What if you don't live in an area where Supermarkets deliver?

    I hope one day you have the fun of a small-thing to manhandle in order to get your shopping.

    On second thaughts...with an attutude like that...best you not dilute the gene pool by having children.


    Does it really matter if you or I as able bodied, no children to look after people have to walk a few 10s of meters from a 'decent' space in order to allow someone with more to worry about a little bit less hassle?
    No...it doesn't.
    The distance walked from or to the space was not in question, or indeed mentioned.

    And speaking of second thoughts maybe you ought to get a spell checker, or is that a poor attitude to have?

    Perhaps the dilution of the gene pool is a little closer to home.
    Chris

    The problem with common sense, is that its not that common.

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  10. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitch78 View Post
    Some people are just idiots.

    How wonderfully insightful.

    At night, its dark.
    Chris

    The problem with common sense, is that its not that common.

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  11. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by A4Quattro View Post
    Maybe, then i'll just limp a bit.
    Because everyone else suffers doesn't mean I want or need to, lots of people have cancer, I don't want it, i'll take the stares safe in the knowledge that my car is safe.
    Jesus, you really are pathetic.

    Does it really impact on your life so much that you can't park your precious few grands worth of BMW nearer to the door?


    And before you say someone will scratch my car in reprisal, grow up.
    I wasn't thinking they would.
    If it were me, I'd be thinking "what a tit" and hoping one day you, or your partner are trying to get your child and shopping sorted in a normal space, or that should you ever end up with some form of disability, that you realise quite what a prick you've been previously. But I doubt it...


    The distance walked from or to the space was not in question, or indeed mentioned.
    So what's the issue of the Parent & Child or disabled spaces then?
    Why not just park elsewhere?

    Is your life so sad and empty that you need to get bent out of shape over it?


    And speaking of second thoughts maybe you ought to get a spell checker, or is that a poor attitude to have?

    Perhaps the dilution of the gene pool is a little closer to home.
    Very ironic.
    My bad...I was rushing to type as I'm at work, and busy trying to keep an Oil Platform running in 80 knot winds. No excuse.

    You choose to be an arsehole...what's your excuse?


    I'd maybe better be careful...or you may get your hard-as-dog-**** mates to put me in Hospital...so I can enjoy my food through a straw.


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  12. #51
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    TBH I cant believe there are people like this. Well actually I can but I can’t believe that they would publicly humiliate themselves like this.

    Nobody likes parking dents but they happen. But you seem to see a parking dent as being so important in your life that you must be very sad.

    Why don’t YOU get your food/shopping delivered? WTF are you so special?

  13. #52
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    Whilst I don't agree with A4Quattro to most of the above, he is entitled to his opinion and say, freedom of speech...

    Each to their own I guess, I would park in a P&C space in the middle of the night myself, when the carpark is empty, and I would not expect any decent parent to take their kids shopping for groceries after 12am! But other times, I wouldn't bother taking my S3 to Tesco's, I have my trusty 160k miles Passat for that, and suprisingly, it has little or no dinks on the bodywork, a dent from a To55a in a Merc ML yes, but maybe I have been lucky?

    Have a nice day chaps.



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  14. #53
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    I don't park in m&c parking, but I do wonder why they have to be right outside the entrance to the store?

    Personally I park as far away from the doors as possible, because most people are to lazy to park there. Most of the time I'm parked and in before the person in front has found a spot closer to the door!
    LISTEN TO THE Bluehorses THEY ROCK!

  15. #54
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    I'm glad some people always have the decency to keep things above a personal level and don't have to resort to name calling. No, wait, thats not happened here has it.

    The reason I sometimes park in the parent and child spaces is because they are bigger, i don't have a tiny little car and it fills the whole of a normal space not allowing much room for cretins to open their doors.

    i'm not breaking any law by parking in a parent and child space, and I shop at night, because I work during the day, i would assume not many parents bring their children out at 21:30 to go shopping.

    If you feel the need to illustrate your point and amplify your message by insulting me and bringing it to a personal level, go right ahead.
    I will treat you and your comments with the contempt they deserve.
    Chris

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  16. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by A4Quattro View Post

    The reason I sometimes park in the parent and child spaces is because they are bigger, i don't have a tiny little car and it fills the whole of a normal space not allowing much room for cretins to open their doors.
    Not trying to be funny here, but you gave me the impression in your previous posts that you do it everytime you head to a Supermarket or wherever there is a P&C space available to you.



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  17. #56
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    jojo
    Yes I did say that I always park in them, maybe that was an over-exaggeration.


    On another matter, I would like your attention brought to this: (especially the moderator whom feels it appropriate to violate such rule)

    3. Personal abuse of other Audi-Sport.net members is not permitted. If you disagree with what someone else says, say so and use whatever arguments you like to support your views. However personal attacks only suggest that you cannot support your views in any other way and are not allowed. They will be edited as and when moderators find such abuse. This is not censorship of your opinions, but a rule designed to ensure that we conduct a friendly debate. Remember - attack the argument and not the person.


    As a moderator of this forum, I would think you, better than any should know the rules.
    Respect them.
    Chris

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  18. #57
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    its just amazing how people jump to conclusions and are so quick to judge when not in receipt of all the facts.
    Chris

    The problem with common sense, is that its not that common.

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  19. #58
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    so in conclusion... p/c spaces are for use by parent and child......or.....pricks and cocks........ it all makies sense now. Will have to remember that next time my little un has to sit in the road when i park the car ..

  20. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by A4Quattro View Post
    I'm glad some people always have the decency to keep things above a personal level and don't have to resort to name calling. No, wait, thats not happened here has it.
    Yawn...
    Boring.

    The reason I sometimes park in the parent and child spaces is because they are bigger, i don't have a tiny little car and it fills the whole of a normal space not allowing much room for cretins to open their doors.
    And you are alone in this?
    How does the rest of the world function in cars that size?
    They seem to manage just fine.

    Maybe the car is just to big for you to park?


    i'm not breaking any law by parking in a parent and child space, and I shop at night, because I work during the day, i would assume not many parents bring their children out at 21:30 to go shopping.
    That's a glorious back-pedal based on your bolshy response earlier.
    Comments not gone your way?


    If you feel the need to illustrate your point and amplify your message by insulting me and bringing it to a personal level, go right ahead.
    I will treat you and your comments with the contempt they deserve.
    Ahh...you feeling a bit fragile?
    Actually, I don't see any references to personal insults...merely implied.
    Personal opinions if you like...like you are so fond of passing on.

    Grow up.


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  21. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by A4Quattro View Post
    its just amazing how people jump to conclusions and are so quick to judge when not in receipt of all the facts.
    Even more amazing how people decide to pass on a whole new set of facts to sway opinion when their idiotic comments didn't go down to well, and they are trying to save face.


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  22. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by A4Quattro View Post
    On another matter, I would like your attention brought to this: (especially the moderator whom feels it appropriate to violate such rule)

    3. Personal abuse of other Audi-Sport.net members is not permitted. If you disagree with what someone else says, say so and use whatever arguments you like to support your views. However personal attacks only suggest that you cannot support your views in any other way and are not allowed. They will be edited as and when moderators find such abuse. This is not censorship of your opinions, but a rule designed to ensure that we conduct a friendly debate. Remember - attack the argument and not the person.


    As a moderator of this forum, I would think you, better than any should know the rules.
    Respect them.
    If you have a problem with comments...report the post.
    I'll even tell you how to do it if you like.

    As it happens, I'm fully aware of the rules as I helped write them.

    I have said nothing that breaks them - unless you find being referred to as an arsehole for plainly behaving like one just too insulting, in which case I'd suggest you are spending time on the wrong Forum.
    If you think otherwise and your pride is hurt, you are very welcome to take your silly little crusade to a Moderator (as I write this as a User, not a moderator).

    I think anyone able bodied that parks in a designated Parent & Child space or a Disabled space because they 'don't want to get parking dings' are pathetic and display the properties of being an arsehole. That's my view...and I'm entitled to it.
    I don't like parking dings either...yet I manage to park in places that reduce the chances of getting them, without resorting to P&C spaces.

    If you don't like freedom of speech, maybe you should head over to the forum that you advertise in your signature that as it happens, seems to breach the rules:

    12. Actions to cause friction between audi-sport.net and any other website or individual is not acceptable and any user doing so will run the risk of loosing posting rights.
    Linking to rival sites repeatedly is also seen as unacceptable.
    ...and since you love reading the rules, re-read the last line:

    Please note that the views expressed on audi-sport.net are the personal views of its contributors, and not that of the website or the administration team.
    My comments...not those of a Moderator.
    A Moderator gives up their time to help look after the running of the forum...it's not a mill stone round their neck that prevents them from speaking their mind.


    As I've said before, if you have an issue...report the post, rather than wave the 'Moderator should know better' card when the argument doesn't go your way.


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  23. #62
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    Ouch!

  24. #63
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    You clearly have way to much time on your hands, I never mentioned disabled spaces either.
    Implied or not, insults just show your true level of intelligence which is clearly 1 evolutionary step above amoeba.

    I don't give a **** what you or anyone else on here thinks, I'll never meet you thank god or you would probably disseminate every word I say to put yourself on the moral high ground and start some sort of pathetic crusade.

    You would like me to grow up when you are the one shouting playground insults around, implied or not. I think YOU are the one that needs to grow up.


    In fact I have made my position quite clear, I'll park in a parent and child space if I feel like it and nothing you or anyone else says is going to make a blind bit of difference to me. I have absolutely no respect for your comments as they have devolved to insults.

    Maybe you should get back to your 90mph wind battered oil rig, careful you don't fall off the side now, although with wit as sharp as yours I'm sure you'd be able to insult your way back to dry land.

    I'm done with this pathetic thread, insult me all you like. I wash my hands of this.
    Chris

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  25. #64
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    oh any by the way, the link in my signature is not to a rival forum, one is Audi, the other is BMW.
    If you have issue with it, maybe take it up with Olly, after all HE BUILT IT!
    Chris

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  26. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by A4Quattro View Post
    You clearly have way to much time on your hands, I never mentioned disabled spaces either.
    I have all the time in the world...I'm here for the next 10 days...come back anytime!
    It's you that's giving up your valuable free time, spending more and more energy looking more and more stupid.

    As for Disabled spaces: I mentioned them previously...very similar principle really.
    I could have sworn you'd said this about them earlier:

    Quote Originally Posted by A4Quattro View Post
    Maybe, then i'll just limp a bit.
    Because everyone else suffers doesn't mean I want or need to, lots of people have cancer, I don't want it, i'll take the stares safe in the knowledge that my car is safe.
    ...when you were in full 'arsehole' mode.


    Implied or not, insults just show your true level of intelligence which is clearly 1 evolutionary step above amoeba.
    Are you clever enough to see the irony there?


    I don't give a **** what you or anyone else on here thinks, I'll never meet you thank god or you would probably disseminate every word I say to put yourself on the moral high ground and start some sort of pathetic crusade.
    I can tell you plainly do 'give a ****' or else you'd not be wasting as much of your time getting bent out of shape when I refer to people like you as 'Aresholes'.
    If it didn't bother you...you'd let it drop.


    You would like me to grow up when you are the one shouting playground insults around, implied or not. I think YOU are the one that needs to grow up.
    I'm more than happy to keep going...as it's you that's looking more and more stupid.
    I don't see the problem with leaving P&C spaces for P&C. You, evidently do...and use them...trying to justify your selfish actions to others.


    In fact I have made my position quite clear, I'll park in a parent and child space if I feel like it and nothing you or anyone else says is going to make a blind bit of difference to me. I have absolutely no respect for your comments as they have devolved to insults.
    Likewise...

    Oh, hang on though...which position are we referring to?
    The original bloshy one? Or the revised post-arsehole one?
    I forget...you've changed your view so many times it's hard to keep up.


    Maybe you should get back to your 90mph wind battered oil rig,
    No getting back to be done...I'm here 24/7 for 14 days.

    Pedantic though it may be...but you don't read too well, do you?
    'An' not 'my'. I only work here.
    'Platform' not 'Rig'.

    The first may have been an oversight...
    The second, pure ignorance. Fundamentally, Rigs and Platforms are polar opposites. Rigs move and drill holes...Platforms are fixed to the sea bed and produce the stuff that comes out of the holes.
    Every day is a school day, huh?

    If you are going to take the piss, at least get the basics right.


    careful you don't fall off the side now, although with wit as sharp as yours I'm sure you'd be able to insult your way back to dry land.
    Ahh...
    Is that the best you can do?
    Pathetic.
    I expected better.


    I'm done with this pathetic thread, insult me all you like. I wash my hands of this.
    You were done a few posts ago...but here you are, still pushing it.
    You want to keep going?
    I notice you've dropped the 'Moderator should know better bull****' now?

    And for the record...I'm not insulting you personally.
    I'm suggesting people who park in Parent & Child spaces, or Disabled spaces, because they are closer to the door, or to save on dings are lazy and behaving like an arsehole.
    You could walk from a much further away space to avoid dings.
    You could walk from a much further away space because you are not trying to get a small child safely belted in.
    You could walk from a much further away space because you are able bodied and are fully able to do so.

    Choosing not to, and potentially making other peoples lives harder is just ignorant and lazy - the actions of an arsehole.

    If the cap fits...


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  27. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by A4Quattro View Post
    oh any by the way, the link in my signature is not to a rival forum, one is Audi, the other is BMW.
    If you have issue with it, maybe take it up with Olly, after all HE BUILT IT!
    There, there...don't cry.

    It was a way of illustrating that rules are interpreted not fixed.
    I don't believe I'm breaching them.
    Neither do you...


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  28. #67
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    Hahaha, fill your boots.
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    The problem with common sense, is that its not that common.

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  29. #68
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    Ess Three hit all the nails on the head.

    I didnt actually see any name calling until he started moaning about name calling anyway.

    The sad thing is no logical arguments will ever change your mind. You are the most important person in the world and nothing will change that. Well possibly when you have kids and you realise they are the most important (hopefully).

    Would be interesting to hear other peoples thoughts on this as there hasnt been much contribution.

  30. #69
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    Unfortunatley, i think the attitude shown by A4 quattro is sadly shown by a lot more people than just him. Sod everyone else, i am the most important.

    I do hope for a4 quattro's sake, that when he has kids ( i am presuming he hasnt got any ) , that he will realise what the bigger picture actually is.

    unfortunately, until that time, as with many others, they will continue to show no respect to the population and continue to live for themselves only.

  31. #70
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    hehe, I was at the shopping centre on saturday. now i always park way out the back because the car is generally safer from shopping centre dings, plus the walk does you good.

    Anyway, as I was walking towards the entrance, a car pulled into the "disabled" bay right next to the entrance. a "largish" lady got out, and I looked at her windscreen but she didnt have an authorising 'disabled' sticker, the conversation went so:
    me (politely) - "excuse me, you're parked in a disabled bay"
    her - "so?" (with look of disgust and mind yr own f%$&ing business)
    me - "well you don't have a disabled sticker"
    her - "piss off, i'm in a hurry"
    me - (looking at her windscreen again) "oh forgive me, I've just spotted your "fat, lazy cow sticker"
    her - "get stuffed" (and waddles off in the direction of a donut shop)
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  32. #71
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    Talking


  33. #72
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    id have just said have you heard of that term to stove....when he said no id then have stoved his wig in....

  34. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee_R View Post
    Somebody had the same beef with me one day, amazingly I had my dad in the car at the same time as we were going to get emergency Stella for the Champions league! I said "hes my dad, i'm his child, problem?"

    The look on his face! .
    Brilliant, lmao, really did make me chuckle cause it is exactly correct but bloody clever & funny, lol

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  35. #74
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    How did I miss this one!

    Ok its old hat, but an emotive subject indeed.

    The wife goes mad about this everytime we go shopping.

    "Why are they parked there, its a P&C space"

    I just take a deep breath and get on with the shopping. Its clear to me that people who think its ok to park in a consessionary spot think different to me, and Im unlikely to change their view, on the same basis that I dont wish to engage them at all.

    All the `car park bravado` is commical, handbags at dawn FFS ASDA ASBOS, what next?


    Anyway, I have found a radical solution, an easy no-cost fix which Im happy to share.

    Find a space as far away as reasonable from other cars.....and park your car there.......Thats it!!

    Even better, find a space with no adjacent spaces.

    Then me and my able bodied family get the benefit of 20yards fresh air without inconveiniencing other more needy and less fortunate than us.


    Even worse are the cashpoint cripples.

    There isnt even a marked space and these bucknuts just abandon their car at peak times and block the traffic to go and draw their fag & kebab tokens out.

    Anyway, people will have ther own views on whats right and wrong. But actually being parent changes your views on a lot of things.

    Amen

    PS- Please feel free to send me free stuff for my great `no-cost anti-ding idea`.

    cheers
    Paul

  36. #75
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    Just wanted to add to the above, that on my 2nd day of S3 ownership, I parked in a pretty much empty carpark for a few photo's, I'm talking about only one car parked in there when I arrive, so I parked mine smack back in the middle with nothing around me. I'm sure you can all picture this now, so after a few snaps, a Tw@t decides to arrive and park right next to me, when there was at least another 25 parking spaces around! This was followed up by his passenger opening the door onto my rear quarter and putting a nice ding into it!! AAAAARGH! I was p!ssed to say the least.

    So whilst I agree with your Tactic, it's no FOOLproof.



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  37. #76
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    I tend to park away from everybody else but as you say, somebody always wants to join you by the time you get back to the car. Maybe they think you car will get lonely?
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  38. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by jojo View Post
    Just wanted to add to the above, that on my 2nd day of S3 ownership, I parked in a pretty much empty carpark for a few photo's, I'm talking about only one car parked in there when I arrive, so I parked mine smack back in the middle with nothing around me. I'm sure you can all picture this now, so after a few snaps, a Tw@t decides to arrive and park right next to me, when there was at least another 25 parking spaces around! This was followed up by his passenger opening the door onto my rear quarter and putting a nice ding into it!! AAAAARGH! I was p!ssed to say the least.

    So whilst I agree with your Tactic, it's no FOOLproof.
    Nope, not fool proof.
    But not much is, even in a concessionary space it doesnt stop idiots twatting your car with their trolley.

    Actually just last week I pulled outside the gym, it was 6.30am and the gym is in a retail park so there was about 300 empty spaces outside, apart from the dozen or so that were up as early as me.

    So, I parked up, at the end of a row, tucked right up against curb and when I retuned I had a old shed parked right up against me at 30degress to the adjacent space, WTF!!. Not sure how they even got out. Thankfully no apparent damage.

    Then some idiot (these were both women BTW), does the same thing with a Smart car! How the fcuk can you not fit one on those in a space.

    Anyway, Im sticking it in the middle of the car park from now on.

    Thankfully Im gone by 8.30 before the rush- and there are no trolleys.

    Its a jungle out there guys.

    Paul
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  39. #78
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    Arrow

    I have a 2 year old and only use the P&C spaces when she is with me otherwise i park as far away from the other cars as possible. i hate social parking! The point of these spaces being close to the store entrace is to help customers who carry their young child to walk as little as possible. Parking in them just because you want a LARGER space is just rude and highlights why everyone dislikes BMW drivers i gave min up as no one ever let me out the junctions! still do not let them out now as they are all cocks, a bit like you A4quattro and that is personal!

    P.S before you comment on MY spelling it is *** but luckly i dont care.
    Last edited by samuelt; 28th March 2009 at 20:16.

  40. #79
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  41. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Plain Old View Post
    I'm intrigued to know on what basis supermarkets consider parents (or guardians or designated persons,, or other transgender species, etc etc) with kids deserving of better treatment than other shoppers......??
    Its all about tempting the customers to use the store. Just like offering a wide selection of trolleys. There are no legally set guidelines or regulations regarding this. Supermarkets when applying for planning permission have to state how many car parking spaces will be available. It "possibly" helps the application if they state a certain amount of P+C and Disabled spaces.

    If for instance Tesco does not have any P+C or Disabled parking and Asda does, then mums with kids and the disabled are more likley to shop there because they are being specially catered for, to make shopping an easier experience. To be honest, when you see a mum with a couple of screaming kids running around the aisle, you hope that she has something that makes her life a little easier, even if its just a wider parking space. Obviously my first thoughts are Valium and alcohol, but a wider parking space is probably more realistic

    As for disabled spaces, I don't know if you have ever noticed but the disabled move a bit slower than most people, having them totter across the traffic in a busy car park is just asking for trouble.

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