993 question

Great cars but you need to buy carefully. There are some great online buyers guides / faqs etc. Have a look at www.rennlist.com www.p-car.com and search for a few other sites.

Running costs are not that much more than an S3, but as they are invariably older cars bits wear / break etc and replacements can be costly.

I don't worry about these things, but if you need to balance the books carefully at the end of the month a newer car is probbably better.

MPG is not great (in mine anyhow) but then I only use it at weekends for driving - and driving hard. 280 miles per 70 litre tank.

Performance wise they are superb - a proper car, better in every way to an S3. Quicker than my ex S3 which was very quick indeed.

There isn't nearly so much mid range as the S3, but the top end (especially on the later varioram 285bhp engines) is superb!

Try one, you'll like it!

For the record... I met up with David yesterday whilst I was in Scotland for the weekend - it would have been rude not to visit an old mate. In turn I was treated to a fast stint down a country road as a passenger in the 993.

Wow, what a car!!!!! I want one just for the engine noise!! I didn't know they sounded *that* good. I was stunned.

I was also stunned at how solid the car felt after 8-10 years. It just felt so planted, and made the S3 feel wallowy down this great B-road which David knows. The car also felt really solid under breaking. It just slowed down so well for the corners as we ripped up the tarmac, passing numerous cars and a zippyly driven Pug 306 - which proved harder to pass than we thought down this twisty road.

But once passed, it was absolutely spot-on. The car howling with induction noise. It was also insight into Davids superb driving - smooth, great gear changes and skillful blips on the down changes - all those track days have served you well young Jedi!! hahaha

All-in-all, a fantastic sounding engine, fantastic grunt in the top end of the rev-range - a real sports car basically.

The missus enjoyed her brief passenger ride too.

But will we get one. Well as David says, and as we discussed on Sunday, its probably not a daily driver car now. Not at the miles which they have on them. Also, the interior, although it contains everyting you need, it is dated. The seats are superb though. So the interior would be a come-down from an S3. But this isn't Davids daily driver...its his weekend toy. Which I think suits the car and its years.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be great as a daily driver, but things could start going wrong, and fixing them could be costly.

Anyway, cheers David. It was great meeting up again.

AL

Been searching myself on autotrader and 911uk.com, and Carrera 4 seem as rare as rocking horse s##t. Loads of C2's though.

David, do you definately reckon a 1996/1997 model would be risky as a daily driver? e.g. I'm doing about 260 miles a week commute, about 1/2 hour in slow traffic and 15 mins motorway. Plus I may need to drive longer distances with work.

AL

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For the record... I met up with David yesterday whilst I was in Scotland for the weekend - it would have been rude not to visit an old mate. In turn I was treated to a fast stint down a country road as a passenger in the 993.

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Great to meet up again, yes!

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Wow, what a car!!!!! I want one just for the engine noise!! I didn't know they sounded *that* good. I was stunned.

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Mine has a slightly modified air intake (£60 from ebay) and a non standard exhaust (£40 in welding and fabrication) so it's a little louder than standard. The induction howl you heard and commented on is from the airbox mod (which can be done for free using a 1" hole cutting tool /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif)

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I was also stunned at how solid the car felt after 8-10 years. It just felt so planted, and made the S3 feel wallowy down this great B-road which David knows. The car also felt really solid under breaking. It just slowed down so well for the corners as we ripped up the tarmac, passing numerous cars and a zippyly driven Pug 306 - which proved harder to pass than we thought down this twisty road.

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It's a proper car, designed from the factory for minimal compromise performance and with maintainance should continue to do the same. The 993 is the last of the over engineered cars - and it shows in their longevity. The weak points are electrical bits and peices mainly produced by Bosch /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/soap.gif


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But once passed, it was absolutely spot-on. The car howling with induction noise. It was also insight into Davids superb driving - smooth, great gear changes and skillful blips on the down changes - all those track days have served you well young Jedi!! hahaha

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Why thank you - kind of you to say. Having a dedicated track car and thrashing bucket for 2 years has really been an eye opener for me and I have changed my driving style a fair bit.

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The missus enjoyed her brief passenger ride too.

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Although I went slowly so as not to scare her (or you following!)

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Anyway, cheers David. It was great meeting up again.

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Absolutely - hope to do the same soon!

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David, do you definately reckon a 1996/1997 model would be risky as a daily driver? e.g. I'm doing about 260 miles a week commute, about 1/2 hour in slow traffic and 15 mins motorway. Plus I may need to drive longer distances with work.

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It's not a risky daily driver - if well maintained (i.e. regardless of cost) and well sourced the car should easily be capable of whatever mileage you impose on it. The question is that if you buy a very good one that you fall in love with can you then stand to see the mileage put on it? For me it's more of an emotional block than anything else.

Service intervals are 12k. A 12k service is about £300 and a 24k about £500. So no big costs there. The cars are listed as the slowest depreciating modern car in Glass's guide currently, so money spent on upkeep will be recouped by it not depreciating - that is unless you do mega mileage.

My reservation is only down to mileage - and many others feel the same. If you can cope with that then crack on and find one - you'll not regret it!

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Been searching myself on autotrader and 911uk.com, and Carrera 4 seem as rare as rocking horse s##t. Loads of C2's though.

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Buy on condition (as I did). I didn't set my heart on either a C4 or C2 (although my slight preference was C4 given my location)

They are both great, the C2 has a little more steering feel and is a little more agile, but it is not like a clasically rear wheel drive car due to the rear engine. I would be confident that I could tackle a similar road to the run we had the other day in a C2 without losing much time - perhaps slightly less throttle out of the slower corners but after that the traction is simply amazing!

Chose a 993 in budget thats in excellent order and little else. Don't be swayed by colour / options etc (unless it's peuce with tartan interior) and get full history, loads of bills and great condition.

There is an excellent buying guide that can be bought (or emailed to friends!) that lists all the major pitfalls to look out for.

A cracking C2 is much preferred to a moody C4. There is no difference in prices and no difference come resale. Some people WANT C2s whereas others want C4s - there will always be a market.

What is worth looking out for is the LSD option on the C2 (as ordinarily they have an open diff). The C4 comes with 4WD and LSD and ABD (a bit like the A3 EDL and about as much use)

Happy to advise if you start shopping!

David.

how would you say a 993 compares with the latest boxster s?
I was following one the other day on the dual carriageway .

No idea, I haven't driven the latest Boxster S.

I would imagine that the 993 would have a straight line advantage but the boxster would have better balance in the corners...

Maybe a test drive is in order.

Thanks David.

Still got some saving to do and decisions to make, oh and convincing Kelly.

I understand what you are saying about mileage. I don't really like putting mileage on any car really. Its been the change from 14 mile round trip to work a day to 52 mile round trip to work on a customer site for over a year thats put the mileage on the S3. Just passed 40000 miles today.

AL

I absolutely love the 911 (933) and after owning many many porshces it is the only model i havent actually owned for myself though my farther had one for a good 3 years.

Like david has said it is the last of the over engineered porsches and they are mechanically bullet proof if looked after properly. Thats why Porsche based the big power N/A 911's e.g GT3 and GT3RS on the air cooled short engines with modified water cooled heads etc etc. They might sound as rough as a bag of hammers on idle but just open that throttle. urmmmm!

I honestly think however that anyone considering an old 911 ahould try and live with one on an extended testdrive if its going to be a daily driver.

Essentially a 964 body, the 993 still has the hateful offset steering wheel and pedal box which takes a lot of getting used to after now being spoiled in more modern cars. As said the interior especially the instrumentation is now very dated as it was dated at 993 launch.

Just my 2p, but i would prefer an early 996 for the same money and probably better condition for a daily driver, though the 3.4 is not the strongest of lumps.

Im now back in a C4S - cab this time! pics to follow.

So what tends to go on the 996 engines? And what sort of price does it cost to repair?

I think EVO a couple on months back had a buying guide on the 996...I'll have to dig it out. But I can remember is mentioning the seal you mentioned David. And I think it was quite costly to repair...a grand or more. Does that sound right?

AL

boxster s 280bhp,1420kg
0-100 12.3 top speed 168mph.
993 carrea 2 285/272bhp 1370kg
0-100 12.3 top speed 168mph.

Not alot in it.Mr boxster thought he could blow me away ,must have been funny to see his face with the little a3 still stuck to him at some rather high speeds.He probably took it too the dealers thinking there was some sort of problem!

The new Boxster S has a short throw gearbox too Ryan which is meant to gove a 0.5 second advantage to 100mph apparantly. They are also alot easier to drive quickly c.f. a 993 so i would exect joe average to be able to drive the boxster quicker.

@ AL B, On the 996 3.4 and 3.6 the main clutch seal notoriously goes and if not caught can be fatal.

I'm on my third 996 now (2 x C4S and 1 x Turbo X50)

My first C4S just siezed on start up - No explanation given, though oil was pi$$ing out of the exhaust and the engine was hydrollically locked. !7k miles FSH. Engine was rebuild by my OPC and i got rid straight away for the Turbo.

My turbo ate brake disks, tyres etc but was faultless as you'd expect with the old aircooled derived bottom end.

My latest 996 C4S has had the main clutch seal replaced at 7k miles and is now fine but we'll wait and see. Maybe im just unlucky.

When are the BIG service points on these cars, 993's or 996's?

There are a lot for sale, ranging from 40000-80000 miles, one or two with 100K+!!

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AL

hey nervus, why did you get rid of the turbo?I fancy one of those still not got the bottle to bring one home as the girlfriend would kill me!!
Funnily enough i drove a new 2.5 sti scooby(i know!) round the track the other day and was really impressed,can't believe i'm saying that!

Ryan, I've seen wildly different performance figures for the 993 and boxster S. I guess it's hard to differentiate. The 993 has more power and torque cf boxster S and is reputed to be a similar weight but have less front end drag... Who knows!

The 996 3.4 is best avoided IMO. I was seriously unimpressed with the drive and the reliability issues are a big worry. The 993 3.6 engine can be dismantled and rebuilt fairly easily should it be required, although most seem to make it to 120k without problems. The americans (bless 'em) have got big problems with the secondary air injection systems on the 993 engines - this requires early rebuilds but fortunately the "rest of world" cars (again, bless the americans for that term) do not have such issues. AFAIK there are fewer options for 996 3.4 rebuilds currently. I think autofarm can do the seals, but there are far too many worrying stories of whole replacement engines on the 996s for comfort. For information, the 993 engine is much more modular - you can take off individual cylinders, heads etc - making DIY and rebuilding much more affordable.

996 3.6 is a different story - build quality is up (although not to 993 standards), the drive is more involving and the engine much more willing. Reliability seems to be improved but I know of a 996 locally with under 7k miles that has already deposited both the oil and coolant onto the owners floor in separate incidents...

I would make sure I had a cast iron (i.e. Porsche) warranty on a 996, but I don't have similar worries with the 993.

Big things on 993s are tyres, front wishbones (about 60-70k, cost £500), clutch if not done already (£600 on C2, £1200 on C4) but very little else. It's a sports car so it will use brake pads / discs etc more quickly and it has an unhealthy thirst for unleaded /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

It's a tough decision though Al... Don't go for a Turbo however, they are numb tools that are blindingly fast but ultimately expensive and unrewarding.... The respective C4S of the 993 or 996 range is a much better tool /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Thats great info David. Gives me something to think/dream about. Got some serious saving up to do though.

AL

evo ix or scooby 2.5 wrx sti would be a good alternative to a porkka.

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evo ix or scooby 2.5 wrx sti would be a good alternative to a porkka.

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Settle down man... A good alternative in what way? To remind you how good the 911s are and how contrived the EVOs are?

Easy! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

An EVO is definately a great track tool, but they are chalk and cheese cf 911. Totally different cars and a totally different drive... My friend has a 993 C2S and an STi8 Prodrive... The STi has been driven so little in the past 6 months since he got the 993 (<500miles) that the battery has gone flat...

For me, not so much...

After the recent track action in a scooby sti 2.5 wrx (no lag compared to 2.0 sti) ,really has changed my mind. Also drove 550 and 360 ferraris and loved the 360(but expensive) but the scooby was just so neutral and torquey not contrived at all.

Agreed. On track an STi is a great tool - an evo even more so. They have great balance and the rear bias of the 4wd allows some rear end steer and slides..

On the road and for an everyday car though I find they are too compromised and even too fast (thought that was never possible) which makes them ultimately unrewarding. I've tracked some STIs (type UK, 8, 8PPP and 8TSL) as well as 2 EVOs, V and VIII - they work well, but never translate into a good road car.

Plus the image - they are really going out of fashion - or maybe it's just me?

I would have said that alternatives would be the Nissan 350z BMW M3 CS and TVR 350c.

nissan 350z is slow compared the 911's and evo/scoobys.
bmw cs is quick but too comprimised as a road car.TVR,reliabilty,build quality issues although seriously fast and raw.
If you ever get the chance to drive the 2.5 sti david i think you would be suprised,it's slightly longer geared at not so manic as 2.0 evo/scooby.

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nissan 350z is slow compared the 911's and evo/scoobys.

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Speed isn't always everything though!

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bmw cs is quick but too comprimised as a road car.

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Are you not referring to the CSL? in which case I agree, but the M3 CS (clubsport) is a different beast.

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If you ever get the chance to drive the 2.5 sti david i think you would be suprised,it's slightly longer geared at not so manic as 2.0 evo/scooby.

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Sounds like it's worth a punt, but I could never suffer to see something so ugly in the garage... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Yep it's not the prettiest thing i've ever seen but very capable.
Yep i meant the csl,sorry.
agreed speed isn't everything,still think you would be left a bit disappointed with the 350z,not really in the same league as porkka's/m's which do have a fair turn of speed.

@ Ryanc

I sold the turbo because the prices were falling through the floor and i got a good deal on a late 996 4S Cab which i couldnt refuse.

In 8 months I warped two sets of discs, went through 3 sets of pads and still cant work out how. I always ran the turbos down and drove sedately for the last mile or so of any journey and it still ate brakes.

On a private runway which stretches from Newcastle to Carlisle one very early crisp morning in October i hit 18# on the digital speedo and ran out of ability and some a$$hole in a lorry nearly blinded me coming the other way with his flashing of lights. He must of thought he'd spotted a UFO but i was sure there was going to be a cop or pile up ahead.

I like the new scooby as it happens and really like the new stealthy/discreet STI (spec D). I hate the traditional blue with gold wheels and dinner trolley spoiler chariots. I think i'll go and drive one if they are that good ryan.

I don't think the 996 3.6's engines are any stronger than the 3.6's and Paragon will tell you the same. They are both relatively weak c.f. all 993's, 996 TT, 996 GT3, 996 GT3RS etc etc.

I dont think i could drive the 993's as easily as i can a 996 with the awkward driving position but i believe this is a major appeal for some. I do love the feel the 993 gives of being more compact and well, just solid and tight (hard to explain really).

In any case i've seen the light, i think i'd rather have any 911 over any boxster

hey nervus,
Let me know what you think of the sti ,i drove the type uk but the spec d sounds interesting. I found that the gearing was a bit longer and the extra capacity made it less manic and suited my smoother driving style.

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Thats great info David. Gives me something to think/dream about. Got some serious saving up to do though.

AL

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you and me both AL - been looking around for a 993 C4S for a while now but they're being offered up for serious money still - it seems for 10k more, you can have a 2000 996 turbo and lets be honest, even with crappy headlights and front bumper, the 996 turbo is a superb car!

I'll have one soon though! got a new job now with a much bigger car allowance and I reckon its time to 'invest'..

All the best mate. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif