Deletion of Model/Designation?

cilurnum said:

Price discovery and trends happen for a reason and the fundamentals are there. There is about 1kW more energy in a litre of diesel than petrol. This ain't finance, it's plain science.

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Tell that to your financial expert and see him **** himself laughing! The past is NO guarantee to the future – PERIOD! Unless you have an ability to read the future in which case I suggest you change your job – you are obviously wasted in your current one.

cilurnum said:

Diesel has always cost more than petrol in this country (as to why is another story), but it has always stayed within a window above petrol and that means the proportionate rise for petrol is always more than diesel so as prices rise it favours diesel more and more. That's what's happened in the past six years. Of course diesel cars were going to cost more because effectively the refining costs are moved into the engine itself.

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Diesel is more expensive than petrol in the UK because (as I’ve already said) the refining industry got caught out by the rapid switch to diesel and you can’t switch refining from petrol to diesel very quickly or easily. In 1995 diesel fuel cost 53.85p per litre versus 53.52p for unleaded (UK Petroleum Industry Association figures). This was when the Government was encouraging us to switch. In 1999 the difference was 3.2% in favour of petrol, in 2007 2.1% but by April 2014 it was 5.9% in favour of petrol. So this rather refutes your figures.

cilurnum said:

Using official figures? Not going to help you. Did you factor in climate control, air conditioning and heating in winter, because that absolutely sends your fuel economy, and the official figures, into freefall? Shutting down cylinders won't help you there. Depreciation has never been 'similar' for diesels and the residual difference will be a heck of a lot more than £714 in three years.

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Yes I agree but at least the official figures are a common base for both carried out under the same conditions (artificial as they may be). And of course aircon etc. affects the consumption but it does on diesel cars as well.

cilurnum said:

Honestly, you're really going to struggle to get takers for a petrol car in three or four years unless it is significantly cheaper.

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Yet again, opinion!

cilurnum said:

Not in a modern diesel. I was quite shocked when I test drove the 150 and 184 and like I said, you spend a lot of your time accelerating and lower down in the rev range which is where the power is in a diesel. To get the equivalent power in a petrol you need to give it revs......and that drops your fuel economy a long way. That's why, somewhat counterintuitively, it's better to get a more powerful engine because you have to rev the less powerful one harder. As for the wider rev range, like I said, if you actually use that rev range fully your fuel economy will nosedive and will look absolutely nothing like official figures and will diverge from diesel dramatically.

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I said that I PREFER the driving characteristics of a petrol car. I WANT to rev the engine and I prefer the smoothness of a petrol.

cilurnum said:

Not here I'm afraid - diesel is diesel and it has more energy in it. It's pretty clear how and why diesel cars have become more popular and there just isn't any indication or anything fundamental at all that says that trend won't continue.

It's just important to consider how and why things have happened over the past few years and that not even official fuel economy figures can give you an accurate picture. You need to look at the fundamentals and go with them.

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I think my earlier statement covers most of this. Unlike you I am not saying that petrol is better or worse – just that I prefer driving a petrol car. You obviously prefer diesel and that’s fine by me. But your opinions are just that, and my final comment is that you have completely ignored the recently publicised very harmful effects of using diesel fuel. And then of course there are the problems of DPF clogging up etc.

Just a couple of articles:

Diesel exhaust is produced when an engine burns diesel fuel. It is a complex mixture of thousands of gases and fine particles (commonly known as soot) that contains more than 40 toxic air contaminants. These include many known or suspected cancer-causing substances, such as benzene, arsenic and formaldehyde. It also contains other harmful pollutants, including nitrogen oxides 
(a component of urban smog).

OEHHA Air: Health Effects of Diesel Exhaust

Diesel fumes are significantly more damaging to health than those from petrol engines, according to research which shows that related air pollution contributes to lung disease, heart attacks, asthma and other respiratory problems.

Diesel fumes more damaging to health than petrol engines | UK news | The Observer

WHICH magazine have a calculator on their website so you can see the payback period of diesel over petrol. I attach 2 screen dumps and at official figures the payback period (assuming 10K miles p.a.) is 104 years and even if you drop the 1.4TFSI COD consumption to 55mpg the payback period is nearly 14 years.

cilurnum said:

I would only consider driving a petrol if I worked from home and didn't drive to work and that was going to happen for years to come.

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I’m retired so driving to work is not relevant to lucky me!

Anyway, all good debates and lets all enjoy our A3 cars whatever the fuel.

cilurnum said:

....
Diesel has always cost more than petrol in this country (as to why is another story), but it has always stayed within a window above petrol and that means the proportionate rise for petrol is always more than diesel so as prices rise it favours diesel more and more. That's what's happened in the past six years. Of course diesel cars were going to cost more because effectively the refining costs are moved into the engine itself....

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didn't want to get involved in this because it's not really relevant to this particular thread, But since this is dragging on...

NO, it hasn't always been *dearer* (edited) than Petrol.

Diesel was around 50% cheaper than Petrol when Maggie Thatcher first came to power! The Conservatives hatched a plot to divide drivers between Petrol & Diesel power by offering manufacturers an incentive to make Diesel Engined cars more acceptable - which at the time were seen as noisey, dirty and slow! Cab drivers loved them because they were more reliable than petrol engines at the time and the fuel was, as said, half the price.

Then, once the masses had been convinced it was a cheaper form of transport - the price of Diesel Fuel was ruthlessly taxed to bring it in line with the cost of Petrol and beyond - with the sale of just about every part of British Industry that wasn't bolted to the floor, Having two popular fuel "alternatives" was seen as a way of doubling the Tax levy on fuel! Because Diesel was available at cheaper rates on the international market (it doesn't take as much energy to refine as it's basically still a Heavy Oil) it offered more Tax profits than Petrol - it worked.

It was never meant to be a replacement for petrol, it was meant to be a competitor! I'm old enough to remember and is why I've never bought into the whole "Diesel is more economical" argument.

It's all hype and propaganda that certain types have swallowed hook, line and sinker. The government doesn't want any one type of fuel to prevail, they want as many as possible as long as they can tax it to the hilt - If they wanted cleaner cars they'd offer manufacturers more of an incentive for Hybrid\Electric cars to make them cheaper to build & sell! LPG wasn't promoted because it's expensive to Buy on International markets, but cheap from the North Sea & therefore offers less Tax profits.

When you take all of this into account, the Diesel argument becomes null & void.

Artimus said:

didn't want to get involved in this because it's not really relevant to this particular thread, But since this is dragging on...

NO, it hasn't always been *dearer* (edited) than Petrol.

Diesel was around 50% cheaper than Petrol when Maggie Thatcher first came to power! The Conservatives hatched a plot to divide drivers between Petrol & Diesel power by offering manufacturers an incentive to make Diesel Engined cars more acceptable - which at the time were seen as noisey, dirty and slow! Cab drivers loved them because they were more reliable than petrol engines at the time and the fuel was, as said, half the price.

Then, once the masses had been convinced it was a cheaper form of transport - the price of Diesel Fuel was ruthlessly taxed to bring it in line with the cost of Petrol and beyond - with the sale of just about every part of British Industry that wasn't bolted to the floor, Having two popular fuel "alternatives" was seen as a way of doubling the Tax levy on fuel! Because Diesel was available at cheaper rates on the international market (it doesn't take as much energy to refine as it's basically still a Heavy Oil) it offered more Tax profits than Petrol - it worked.

It was never meant to be a replacement for petrol, it was meant to be a competitor! I'm old enough to remember and is why I've never bought into the whole "Diesel is more economical" argument.

It's all hype and propaganda that certain types have swallowed hook, line and sinker. The government doesn't want any one type of fuel to prevail, they want as many as possible as long as they can tax it to the hilt - If they wanted cleaner cars they'd offer manufacturers more of an incentive for Hybrid\Electric cars to make them cheaper to build & sell! LPG wasn't promoted because it's expensive to Buy on International markets, but cheap from the North Sea & therefore offers less Tax profits.

When you take all of this into account, the Diesel argument becomes null & void.

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What a very strange post.

snakehips said:

What a very strange post.

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If it puts an end to the multi-quote Diesel Vs. Petrol argument, it's good enough.

glospete said:

Tell that to your financial expert and see him **** himself laughing! The past is NO guarantee to the future – PERIOD! Unless you have an ability to read the future in which case I suggest you change your job – you are obviously wasted in your current one.

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I'm sorry but I''m afraid you're just not getting this. A litre of diesel has more energy in it than a litre of petrol. This isn't an opinion, it isn't a financial assessment and it isn't about reading tarot cards. It is a plain and simple statement of fact. If you can't grasp that simple concept then retirement was probably for the best.

Diesel is more expensive than petrol in the UK because (as I’ve already said) the refining industry got caught out by the rapid switch to diesel and you can’t switch refining from petrol to diesel very quickly or easily.

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Diesel is more expensive because it's a rip off. It's Britain. The 'rapid' switch to diesel has been going on for about fifteen years now and it's petrol that requires refining, not diesel.

In 1999 the difference was 3.2% in favour of petrol, in 2007 2.1% but by April 2014 it was 5.9% in favour of petrol. So this rather refutes your figures.

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I probably should have clarified that the divergence in prices has occurred in the past fifteen years (hence my liberal use of the word 'always') and primarily over the past five or six years, but you still get over a tenth more energy in a litre of diesel than petrol and that's what better diesel technology exploits because it can be burned more thoroughly. That won't change. However, I should have known this would be used to get us off the beaten track.

Yes I agree but at least the official figures are a common base for both carried out under the same conditions (artificial as they may be). And of course aircon etc. affects the consumption but it does on diesel cars as well.

Yet again, opinion!

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It's not an opinion. If you keep yourself warm in winter fuel economy will nosedive and it's not relative because diesel contains more energy and is able to generate more heat to play with. A petrol has to suck more fuel to generate power.

I said that I PREFER the driving characteristics of a petrol car. I WANT to rev the engine and I prefer the smoothness of a petrol.

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That's great, but it doesn't alter the fundamentals or the residual price of your car in three or fours years time. Your positive outlook on petrol won't alter the price discovery that others will place on your car. Oh, and if you want to rev your engine your fuel economy figures are useless and will diverge terribly from a diesel. If you want your premise to hold true then keep your foot off the pedal! If you want to enjoy the power while keeping your economy somewhere in check you know what to do.

But your opinions are just that, and my final comment is that you have completely ignored the recently publicised very harmful effects of using diesel fuel. And then of course there are the problems of DPF clogging up etc.

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Sadly, they are not opinions. It's just the way things have evolved, particularly over the past ten years or so, where diesel engine technology has evolved to improve performance and extract the energy in the fuel that has always been there but couldn't be practically utilised and where it can be burned more thoroughly.

The harmful effects of diesel are duly noted, but that has nothing to do with the efficiency of diesel engines. It's an internal combustion engine.

WHICH magazine have a calculator on their website so you can see the payback period of diesel over petrol. I attach 2 screen dumps and at official figures the payback period (assuming 10K miles p.a.) is 104 years and even if you drop the 1.4TFSI COD consumption to 55mpg the payback period is nearly 14 years.

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I think we've covered this. I take it that doesn't take into account your heavy right foot, your desire to rev your car or wanting to keep warm in winter or cool in summer? No, it doesn't. You are NEVER going to get 60 mpg from the petrol engine, or even 55 mpg, even in ideal conditions. I have a petrol engined car right now before my A3 arrives and I know what it takes to get it into the 40s in ideal conditions and let me tell you, I don't see many people lifting and coasting and changing up to fifth in a thirty zone where possible. In winter that can nosedive into the 30s or 20s.

Again, official figures won't tell you that so you have to go with the fundamentals.

If these were opinions then great, but the calorific value of diesel is what it is.

I’m retired so driving to work is not relevant to lucky me!

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That's good. I'd probably buy a petrol then!

And ignoring the above (because frankly this could go on for ever!) you studiously ignore the harmful effects of diesel ..... Anyway if you feel you've won the argument good on yer!

Oh for peet sake stay on topic, at least the original topic was funny whereas this petrol vs diesel is boring as heck...

Make your own topic instead of hijacking this funny one.

snakehips said:

What a very strange post.

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It certainly was. If diesel engined cars were horrifically expensive to run overall we'd know about it by now because that would be the consensus of peoples' experiences, rather like how many people I've known who had Focus STs had to get rid of them simply because they couldn't afford to run them. You can't cheat reality as I think Richard Feynman said and hype and propaganda can't alter that. Not that there ever was hype and propaganda over diesels because it was all about encouraging the sale of new cars post-2008.

I also like how people talk about hybrid electrics, having no idea how horrifically expensive they are and how much energy they take to build, run and maintain. They are totally impractical until we move completely to electric vehicles and that won't happen until energy storage improves the range to hundreds of miles - and that includes air conditioning, power and heating which affects range horrifically. We are many years away from that and I know because I work for an electric vehicle related company.

Let's all just start adding badges to our cars and see how it goes... supercharged twin turbo for the win!

glospete said:

And ignoring the above (because frankly this could go on for ever!) you studiously ignore the harmful effects of diesel .....

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It's a pity that's not what the debate was about as I'd already said, but if you feel you can reframe it that way and give yourself warm fuzzies......go ahead.

Interesting off-shoot into the considerations and why you've got to look beyond 'official figures' and at the fundamentals nonetheless.

:sigh:

Battlekrapz said:

Oh for peet sake stay on topic, at least the original topic was funny whereas this petrol vs diesel is boring as heck...

Make your own topic instead of hijacking this funny one.

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+1

Currently the car with the most standard badges / lettering I have seen is the Discovery3, not because discovery is a long word, but have you seen everything after it?? Its like some graduate professor with a string of 4 letter combo's after their name!

Helifella said:

Currently the car with the most standard badges / lettering I have seen is the Discovery3, not because discovery is a long word, but have you seen everything after it?? Its like some graduate professor with a string of 4 letter combo's after their name!

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But who amongst us remembers this on the Triumph TR4A (it stands for independent rear suspension)

jojo said:

So back on topic. I think an S3 Sportback with a 1.4 TFSI badge would look awesome!

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Aw, are you mocking my poor little 1.4TFSI?

jojo said:

I hope you went for the badge delete Pete, just think of the weight saving, it all about the power to weight ratio!

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I went for TFSI badge delete purely to help the airflow over the back of the car - I thought that when I switch on DRS (I assume all A3s have that?) it will give me an extra few miles per hour?