What are your thoughts on diesel vs petrol power delivery (test drive an S5 and RS5)

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arad85

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So...

I have a 184Q which I really like driving - lots of low down power nice... but as always, the quest for more power beckons. With that in mind, I've been looking at an alternative and test drove a second hand S5 and RS5 yesterday.

The RS5 was first out (come on... anyone who says they don't want to drive an RS is not telling the truth ;)). Lovely car and very fast (I whizzed past a GTI like it was standing still :)), but it only generates its copious amounts of power high up in the rev range. 0-4k RPM and it felt "powerful", 4k-6k and it was starting to get going and at 6k you needed a lot of space in front of you to avoid running into something! Whilst the power was lovely, it didn't seem all that practical to me as you have to really scream the revs to get the power. Yup, great for being quick off the mark at the lights, but I didn't feel it that practical for day-to-day driving (i.e. a 25-30 mile commute along single carriageway A roads and a fairly busy motorway).

I also tried the 3L S5 sportback and that was much smoother - power delivery was better low down in the rev range and it felt it would be a better drive around town. Having said that, it didn't feel that much quicker than the 184Q, despite the extra power. OK, I only drove it a few miles, but I wasn't blown away....

Now I know the 184Q has silly amounts of torque (in fact the petrol engines I drove yesterday did not have much more torque than the A3, but weighed a whole lot more), but I was surprised at the difference in power delivery and how it affected the way you drive the car - and not the straight line 0-60ish which is great for beating people off the line (there's definitely 1 road I drive regularly where the RS5 would be easy to get to silly illegal speeds very easily).

Which leaves me in a quandry. I drive 60 miles a day so buying a big petrol car would only be on the cards if it gave me a decent number of goose-pimple moments. Neither the RS or S did that yesterday - so I'm assuming the other larger S cars would be similar (note an A4 is too small for me - I have a 3 door A3 as it is easier for me to get in and out of as I'm 6' 8" tall and "well proportioned"). As far as I can see, the only practical way forward is:
  • Tune the current A3 within an inch of it's life (I already have a DTUK box)
  • Try an S3
  • Try an A6/A7 with the 3l bi-tdi engine in, but then you're combatting another 500kg or so of weight...
Anyone with any better ideas?

PS: Most ridiculous moment was looking at the speedo in the RS. 30mph was where I expected to see 10mph so figuring out what speed you were doing was pure guesswork. A quick glance and all you could say with certainty was you were doing "somewhere between 30 and 40"...- this car is designed to go quickly!
 
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No one have any comments - either telling me I'm mad as the S/RS are the bees knees and I should learn to drive them harder or telling me something else?

Still have a hankering for an A5 3l quattro or S5... Hmm....
 
Probably handles like an oil tanker... cause it is one!
 
arad85 said:
No one have any comments - either telling me I'm mad as the S/RS are the bees knees and I should learn to drive them harder or telling me something else?

Still have a hankering for an A5 3l quattro or S5... Hmm....
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Wants and needs. I want a the new TTRS. I need a VW Caddy van.

Sounds like you want to change, but do you really need to? On paper; the car you have probably has the right balance of performance vs practicality for you. Which do you value more performance or practicality? The car you have is faster than most. Even if you get a faster car there are still going to be faster ones.

As my cousin pointed out to me - at some point you will realise that you are sitting in a fast car that was expensive to buy, is expensive to run and you are still stuck in a que of traffic doing 10mph.

After reading a recent article - I would call the car you want a 1 percent car. The problem is for 99% of your driving it is not practical.

Sorry, this is not really answering your questions - just looking at the psychology. I would wait for the new A4 though. I am ;)
 
RS6 for "goose pimple moments" as you put it. Handles amazingly for a car that weighs 2 tonnes or thereabouts.
Not 6 figures either unless you go option mental.
 
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CraigI said:
RS6 for "goose pimple moments" as you put it. Handles amazingly for a car that weighs 2 tonnes or thereabouts.
Not 6 figures either unless you go option mental.
Click to expand...
... never gonna be as much fun as the new TTRS I want :p
 
Daz Auto said:
... never gonna be as much fun as the new TTRS I want :p
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If I were 6" shorter, I would own one as that would be the answer. What I am after is a TTRS for someone who is 6' 8" tall... and still wants more than 30mpg :D

RS6 - yup - had thought of that... but the door is still a bit small. I like the 3 door and coupe cars due to that. And I was hoping to do this on the current car + £10-15k...

There is absolutely no need of a better performing car - I just want one. YOLO as the kids of today say..... or so I'm told.
 
The high revs thing is because it's naturally aspirated, you'll always have to rev them more to get the performance. Also the 4.2 engine has a high redline which encourages revving it higher. You have two options really, buy something turbocharged (or supercharged) and have decent low down torque, or get used to revving the nuts off your car. ;)
 
The problem with the RS was that you needed to floor it to get the power, but then you'd be travelling at light speed within 1 second (well, OK, 2 as you have to wait a second for it to get to enough revs) and would need to un-floor it. Great if you are ona track where you know what is coming, but impractical for day-to-day overtaking (IMHO of course!).

Do like the look of the S5 (or 313 PS diesel). May have to give that a second look or wait a couple of years until my endowment mortgage matures... :)
 
Daz Auto said:
... never gonna be as much fun as the new TTRS I want :p
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You should go for it, as previously mentioned life is too short.
I've never once considered any TT. Something about them that just isn't for me.
RS6 though is a proper car, ticks so many boxes that it's worth the cost.
 
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audi upgrades
arad85 said:
PS on the RS6... I don't like Avants....
Click to expand...

Sounds to me like you're going to keep the 184.
Not a bad thing.

RS5 not turbo charged so you have to work them through the rev range.
S5 (3.0) isn't an exciting car. Good, fast, well build, good looking motorway cruiser, but not too thrilling.
They both have a better Quattro system than the A3 platform which makes for a more rear biased drive, which for me is the way AWD should be.

What you are after is an exciting diesel.......yet to find one of those.
Manufacturers don't put the same effort into making their diesels great to drive.

Have you considered keeping the 184 and getting a second car with a bit of excitement to it?
 
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arad85 said:
If I were 6" shorter, I would own one as that would be the answer. What I am after is a TTRS for someone who is 6' 8" tall... and still wants more than 30mpg :D

There is absolutely no need of a better performing car - I just want one. YOLO as the kids of today say..... or so I'm told.
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He's big, he's red, his feet stick out the bed...

My m8 tells me the new Mini Cooper S is a fantastic car to drive. But he is only 6'3".
 
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CraigI said:
What you are after is an exciting diesel.......yet to find one of those.
Manufacturers don't put the same effort into making their diesels great to drive.

Have you considered keeping the 184 and getting a second car with a bit of excitement to it?
Click to expand...

BMW's M division make high performance diesel cars like the M550D. 740Nm at 2000rpm. Audi may do something like this, although I think electric/hybrid will be even better than this, torque-wise, in the future.
 
I know it probably not as powerful as you'd like but I love my 3.0 tdi quattro A4 B8.
It's got 240ps and 500nm standard. Limited to 155mph and 0-60 in 5.9 on Parker's.
You can also spend £600 on DPF delete and remap to bring it to over 300bhp and a load more torque.
Then you have the bi turbo tdi's in the larger models which naturally tune higher.
If I was going for hardcore performance then I'd have to go petrol but I love the drivability of mine and sheer train like pulling power. Plus I average 40mpg so that's a nice little bonus
 
CraigI said:
Sounds to me like you're going to keep the 184.
Not a bad thing.
Click to expand...
This is where I currently am in my mind. It's certainly the cheapest option!

CraigI said:
Have you considered keeping the 184 and getting a second car with a bit of excitement to it?
Click to expand...
We already have 2 cars and I really want something that is exciting to drive AND will do as a day-to-day commute car.
 
kanecullen89 said:
I know it probably not as powerful as you'd like but I love my 3.0 tdi quattro A4 B8.
It's got 240ps and 500nm standard. Limited to 155mph and 0-60 in 5.9 on Parker's.
You can also spend £600 on DPF delete and remap to bring it to over 300bhp and a load more torque.
Then you have the bi turbo tdi's in the larger models which naturally tune higher.
Click to expand...
Yup... Still looking at an A5 coupe with the same 3l turbo engine and the bi-tdi too.

Supposedly, the A3 184 is faster than the Cooper S (!) and I drove a Countryman some time ago and hated the interior so that kind of put me off Minis...

BMWs ... hmm...
 
PS. Thanks everyone so far - putting my mind at rest that I'm not too far off the mark :)
 
arad85 said:
This is where I currently am in my mind. It's certainly the cheapest option!

We already have 2 cars and I really want something that is exciting to drive AND will do as a day-to-day commute car.
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We are in a similar position. Even though my GTD would be 'more exciting' we usually take my wife's new A3 everywhere. It is the more comfortable car to drive/cruise about in. So since we have her car for weekend driving together - I am considering my options. My heart is saying Audi TT, but my head is saying I need something more comfortable for my 120 mile commute. Unfortunately, more 'exciting' usually means less comfortable, economical, practical.
 
I feel your dilemma, the way I look at it is that a diesel is always a deceptive and kind of lazy delivery, incredibly effective but for me simply an efficient way of accelerating. I recently drove a fast petrol after years of fast(ish) diesels and realised how much I like the petrol delivery, with turbos nowadays you are never going to get the good old 16v top end rush from 15-20 years ago but make sure you get a petrol that enjoys revs as diesels never do.

I ride a lot of motorbikes and when you are in the mood there is nothing like revving out (and on the overrun) a quick engine, diesels just don't give that grin factor in the same way even though for the majority of the time they are as quick.
 
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For diesel fun it can only be the BMW 335D, for Petrol fun try the 335i, I had one previously and had it re-mapped to 365 BHP, amazing car.

I have had my 184 since the end of February, its not quick enough and i am now looking to change it asap. I moved from an XKR with 420bhp and just miss the power. I was trying to be sensible with the 184, that didn't work.

regards
 
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I do wonder sometimes is the DGS/Stronic and a diesel engine just too smooth to feel fast. Do petrol Stronics feel faster than similarly powered diesels?
 
msdmjb said:
with turbos nowadays you are never going to get the good old 16v top end rush from 15-20 years ago but make sure you get a petrol that enjoys revs as diesels never do.
Click to expand...

I've found that the S3 with a tuning box just pulls more and more the higher up the revs you get, almost like N/A. It's noticeable and really enjoyable! I didn't notice it anywhere near as much on my remapped MK6 GTI.
 
Scott said:
I've found that the S3 with a tuning box just pulls more and more the higher up the revs you get, almost like N/A. It's noticeable and really enjoyable! I didn't notice it anywhere near as much on my remapped MK6 GTI.
Click to expand...

How do you find the box? For some illogical reason I am still nervous about using a tuning box even though I use power commanders on motorbikes all the time..........I think it is to do with the much greater power difference when tweaking a turbo car engine. I do like the sound of how you describe it though, really miss the old top end rush on modern cars.
 
kenny_boon said:
A5 3.0TDi or A6 biTDi

im stunned the S5 felt similar to the 184tdi.
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yes. This is my thinking.

I only drove the S5 for a few miles and only around town with a quick poke up the bypass by the garage. It wasn't enough time to really make a meaningful comparison but made me realise the 184 has plenty of low down pull. The DTUK box is out of the car at the moment.

I think that the low end diesel grunt is more useful than top end power most of the time so they kind of balance for a lot of the time. This was the problem with the RS... If you just wanted to catch the car in front, you couldn't floor it as it was on top of the other car almost instantly so you can only gently press the pedal which is not where the power is in the RS... Which kind of negates the power advantage most of the time. Overtaking would have to be well timed in it. On a straight with nothing in front it would destroy most things easily...
 
Do BMW make a four series 330D as that might fit your requirements (other than its a BM of course)

In fact they make a 430D and a 435D. Have a look.........

However a couple of friends both have SQ5's and feel they are the ideal vehicle. Thought about that?
 
I had a remapped 2.0l diesel, totally transformed the engine, rev'd freely, a broad power and torque band and with a constant push into your seat until you hit the limiter. I don't know why they tune diesels in the way they are because it isn't about economy.
 
I've just made the switch from an S3 8P Stage 2 to a new S5 Coupe 3.0V6T.

The S5 feels slower than it is due to the linearity of the supercharger. Remember it's a big GT coupe rather than a point and shoot hatch, and I'm having quite a challenge getting my head round that. In a straight fight it will cane the 184Q in most disciplines (excluding MPG!), but it just doesn't feel that way on the road. The speedo is the only indication you're moving into big speeds. You do have to modify your driving style somewhat, and what I've found is that as I came from the 1:1 more linear throttle map (Revo) I have a tendency not to kick down which seems essential in the S-Tronic S5 to get it to respond quickly. Off the line it's very quick (for a 1.7 tonne lump), but for me it's greatest exposure is on an 'A/b' road when looking to overtake, it just lacks a bit of sparkle and you can be left feeling exposed and in the outside lane for longer than you'd expect given the power figures.

However, and this was the big factor for me, the S5 can be given another 130bhp for £1650 (taking it to close to 480bhp). The RS5 with it's rasping V8 will need £10k of spend to outperform that (with an evasive supercharger conversion to take it over 500bhp). Whilst the RS will always feel more raw, if you get the full Audi Drive Select with adaptive dampers, sports diff etc. the S5 can feel a bit more controlled, and seems to act far more nimbly than some of the pre-facelift models I drove.

I'm not 100% convinced it's the right car for me drive-wise. I love it's looks, the V engine and the torson system with crown/sports rear diff, but it's just a touch too grown up for me at times, and whilst the boot space has come in really handy, it's just a touch on the large side in tight car parks and on country roads for my liking (how supercar drivers cope I will never know!!).

Tough call, but I'd say a BMW3/4 and C63 would be more visceral if a bit less elegant.
 
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Just in case you missed this first time around, this is what can be achieved with a V6 TFSI ......

 
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How can anyone not be impressed with the performance of the S4, S5 when mapped like the one above. Supercar performance without all the negative points.
 
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desertstorm said:
How can anyone not be impressed with the performance of the S4, S5 when mapped like the one above. Supercar performance without all the negative points.
Click to expand...

I don't think many people really understand the true potential of the base platform. The engine has been heavily held back to fit into the Audi hierarchy. It's quoted at 333PS, but most tuners have found it to run closer to 350PS as standard and the figures have been massaged by Audi so it doesn't tread on the toes of the RS, and it fits the EU data requirements (probably allowing them to achieve CO2 / tax brackets etc.).

Most owners who go the mod route are surprisingly overwhelmed by the car after modifications, and it's so good that two of Revo's senior management team run them as daily drivers as they think it's one of the great unsung products in the Audi range (in 3.0T guise). 5 seconds to get from 60-100 in that clip (see from 20s - 25s in the clip), it's just bonkers!

Without mods it's good, but it's not monumental like it appears to be with them.
 
vegnomeat said:
For diesel fun it can only be the BMW 335D, for Petrol fun try the 335i, I had one previously and had it re-mapped to 365 BHP, amazing car.

I have had my 184 since the end of February, its not quick enough and i am now looking to change it asap. I moved from an XKR with 420bhp and just miss the power. I was trying to be sensible with the 184, that didn't work.

regards
Click to expand...

I'd second this. Loving my 335D Touring. Not sure its comparable to an RS/S car though.

I'd recommend taking a test drive in the BMW of your choice with this engine in it, if you haven't done so already.
 
veeeight said:
Just in case you missed this first time around, this is what can be achieved with a V6 TFSI ......

Click to expand...



I think you've just confirmed my next car to replace the S3.

Does anyone know why the headlights and brake lights are flashing on the S4 in the video?

Can the S4 with standard brakes handle the REVO upgrade?
 
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pluves1 said:
I think you've just confirmed my next car to replace the S3.

Does anyone know why the headlights and brake lights are flashing on the S4 in the video?

Can the S4 with standard brakes handle the REVO upgrade?
Click to expand...

LEDs flicker at a frequency that is undetectable by the human eye, but with certain camera frame rates can be picked up, as you can see in the video.
 
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pluves1 said:
Can the S4 with standard brakes handle the REVO upgrade?
Click to expand...

Just abot handle the standard power, the pads give off a shed-load of dust so I'm thinking of upgrading mine soonish as you can only do one or two journeys before the wheels are heavily coated. Tempted by EBC Red as they seem to give off a lot less dust and offer better stop/feel than OEM.
 
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