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  1. #1
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    Remapping (no box) the 8V Tdi:s - what opportunities are there currently?

    Well, anyone knows anything? Nothing extreme, just some proper increase of the BHP and torque. I am preferably seeking for a external and detachable mapping unit, so that the car can be made standard when its time for service.
    Previous: Audi A3, 2.0 tdi sport 2010 lava grey
    Current (since April-14): Audi A3 SB 5d, 2.0 tdi sport, 150 bhp, quattro, manual gear box, Monsoon grey, 17 inch tyres, detachable towbar, radio controlled diesel heater (expensive!), B&O, adaptive xenon light, eletric lumbar control, tyre pressure control, aluminium roof rails, ACC, connectivity package, rear parking assist, light & rain assist, interior light package, exterior glossy package. Heated mirrors and seats - standard in (Sweden).

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    I think you are mixing things. A remap is altering the ECU ROM to change the way the ECU manages the engine. As far as I understand, this is very difficult to do, involves removing the ECU and putting it on the bench due to anti-hacking protection on the ECU software (the only places I know of who do this are German companies that charge a lot and seem to have direct links to VAG companies) and will ALWAYS be visible as there is enough anti-hacking stuff that the change can always be detected. It may be possible to get a box that controls the remap parameters externally, but the remap is always visible as you have had to alter something on the ECU. The German companies also charge an arm and a leg for it....

    The only thing I know of that is not detectable is a box such as the DTUK box which alters the signals sent from a couple of sensors on the engine. Essentially, by fooling the ECU as to what its sensors are telling it, it gets it to add more fuel at a higher pressure into the engine giving it more power. They are easy to fit and remove (took me 5 minutes for mine) and because it is only massaging the signals from the sensors and is not intrusive into the ECU, there appears to be no way of detecting it has ever been fitted. This is not a remap.

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    What are the pitfalls of using a "box" as opposed to a remap of the ECU. I previously had mapped a 335i from 305 bhp to 365 bhp, apart from the tremendous power increase I couldn't tell it was a remap.

    Does a "box" change, alter the same parameters as a remap does?

    regards

    Veggie
    2014 184 Ps Quattro S Tronic

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by arad85 View Post
    I think you are mixing things. A remap is altering the ECU ROM to change the way the ECU manages the engine. As far as I understand, this is very difficult to do, involves removing the ECU and putting it on the bench due to anti-hacking protection on the ECU software (the only places I know of who do this are German companies that charge a lot and seem to have direct links to VAG companies) and will ALWAYS be visible as there is enough anti-hacking stuff that the change can always be detected. It may be possible to get a box that controls the remap parameters externally, but the remap is always visible as you have had to alter something on the ECU. The German companies also charge an arm and a leg for it....

    The only thing I know of that is not detectable is a box such as the DTUK box which alters the signals sent from a couple of sensors on the engine. Essentially, by fooling the ECU as to what its sensors are telling it, it gets it to add more fuel at a higher pressure into the engine giving it more power. They are easy to fit and remove (took me 5 minutes for mine) and because it is only massaging the signals from the sensors and is not intrusive into the ECU, there appears to be no way of detecting it has ever been fitted. This is not a remap.
    I agree with what you are saying, except that the German companies like MTM and Abt make the changes by fitting a completely new reprogrammed ECU to replace the existing one which is why their solutions are expensive.
    Dave R (h5djr)
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    A3 8V 2.0 TDI-184 Sportback Sport s-tronic quattro - Silver + lots of options - my 9th A3

  6. #5
    Andrew (ABYSS) is probably the best person to answer that as he works for DTUK.
    Dave R (h5djr)
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    A3 8V 2.0 TDI-184 Sportback Sport s-tronic quattro - Silver + lots of options - my 9th A3

  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by arad85 View Post
    I think you are mixing things. A remap is altering the ECU ROM to change the way the ECU manages the engine. As far as I understand, this is very difficult to do, involves removing the ECU and putting it on the bench due to anti-hacking protection on the ECU software (the only places I know of who do this are German companies that charge a lot and seem to have direct links to VAG companies) and will ALWAYS be visible as there is enough anti-hacking stuff that the change can always be detected. It may be possible to get a box that controls the remap parameters externally, but the remap is always visible as you have had to alter something on the ECU. The German companies also charge an arm and a leg for it....

    The only thing I know of that is not detectable is a box such as the DTUK box which alters the signals sent from a couple of sensors on the engine. Essentially, by fooling the ECU as to what its sensors are telling it, it gets it to add more fuel at a higher pressure into the engine giving it more power. They are easy to fit and remove (took me 5 minutes for mine) and because it is only massaging the signals from the sensors and is not intrusive into the ECU, there appears to be no way of detecting it has ever been fitted. This is not a remap.
    Thanks for the information. Sorry if I mix things up, know little of these things. On the other hand I think I am looking for the more difficult (and probably more expensive) ECU manipulation, similar what this company offer (albeit you will not find the newest Audi engines included in this company's list): BSR - Car tuning, Chip tuning, Diesel performance, Ethanol conversion kit

    As far I as understand the boxes do change sufficient engine parameters and do provide engine HP but do not work in cooperating with existing systems on-board, eg diesel filter clean schedules, fuel consumption and service intervals and possible more. However, I might have to consider the box instead (if anything at all) if the code breaking proves to be to difficult. Or try the German company..
    Previous: Audi A3, 2.0 tdi sport 2010 lava grey
    Current (since April-14): Audi A3 SB 5d, 2.0 tdi sport, 150 bhp, quattro, manual gear box, Monsoon grey, 17 inch tyres, detachable towbar, radio controlled diesel heater (expensive!), B&O, adaptive xenon light, eletric lumbar control, tyre pressure control, aluminium roof rails, ACC, connectivity package, rear parking assist, light & rain assist, interior light package, exterior glossy package. Heated mirrors and seats - standard in (Sweden).

  8. #7
    The company you gave details of are like so many other companies in the re-mapping market. They list all the various older Audi engines but not the current models. This is because up until the latest models they could carry out the remapping the the OBD diagnostic socket on the car. This is no longer possible because Bosch, who provide the ECUs to Audi, have now built in greater security into their modules. Remapping can still be done but it involves removing the ECU from the car and using very specialist equipment to connect to the actual pins on the chip itself to change anything.

    Once this has been done it is refitted to the car but any dealer will be able to detect that this has been done as soon as they connect the car to their diagnostic equipment. If there was a problem with the engine it would not be covered by the warranty. The German companies who replace the ECU with their own give their own warranty on the engine but usually only for 2 years.
    Dave R (h5djr)
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    A3 8V 2.0 TDI-184 Sportback Sport s-tronic quattro - Silver + lots of options - my 9th A3

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by h5djr View Post
    I agree with what you are saying, except that the German companies like MTM and Abt make the changes by fitting a completely new reprogrammed ECU to replace the existing one which is why their solutions are expensive.
    I stand corrected Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by h5djr View Post
    The company you gave details of are like so many other companies in the re-mapping market. They list all the various older Audi engines but not the current models. This is because up until the latest models they could carry out the remapping the the OBD diagnostic socket on the car. This is no longer possible because Bosch, who provide the ECUs to Audi, have now built in greater security into their modules. Remapping can still be done but it involves removing the ECU from the car and using very specialist equipment to connect to the actual pins on the chip itself to change anything.

    Once this has been done it is refitted to the car but any dealer will be able to detect that this has been done as soon as they connect the car to their diagnostic equipment. If there was a problem with the engine it would not be covered by the warranty. The German companies who replace the ECU with their own give their own warranty on the engine but usually only for 2 years.
    Hmm thanks. But Audi's engine warranties aren't that long-lasting either, are they? Anyway, I'll probably wait and see what happens. I am pretty sure there will be something more handy available with time. A lot of clever guys are probably scratching their heads as we are speaking. And due to the money to be earned I am pretty convinced someone will make it sooner or later.

    Edit: seems like Audi feels no responsibility whatsoever for all the people in the engine mapping business that will lose their income.. (not so serious remark)
    Previous: Audi A3, 2.0 tdi sport 2010 lava grey
    Current (since April-14): Audi A3 SB 5d, 2.0 tdi sport, 150 bhp, quattro, manual gear box, Monsoon grey, 17 inch tyres, detachable towbar, radio controlled diesel heater (expensive!), B&O, adaptive xenon light, eletric lumbar control, tyre pressure control, aluminium roof rails, ACC, connectivity package, rear parking assist, light & rain assist, interior light package, exterior glossy package. Heated mirrors and seats - standard in (Sweden).

  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatBallsofFire View Post
    Hmm thanks. But Audi's engine warranties aren't that long-lasting either, are they? Anyway, I'll probably wait and see what happens. I am pretty sure there will be something more handy available with time. A lot of clever guys are probably scratching their heads as we are speaking. And due to the money to be earned I am pretty convinced someone will make it sooner or later.

    Edit: seems like Audi feels no responsibility whatsoever for all the people in the engine mapping business that will lose their income.. (not so serious remark)
    In the UK the whole Audi car carries a three year warranty. What is it in Sweden?
    I'm sure someone will come up with an answer but for it to be available in Germany it would need to have TuV approval and it will still invalidate any warranty. I think Audi are more concerned with their responsibility to the environment than to remappers making money from their engines.
    Dave R (h5djr)
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    A3 8V 2.0 TDI-184 Sportback Sport s-tronic quattro - Silver + lots of options - my 9th A3

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by h5djr View Post
    In the UK the whole Audi car carries a three year warranty. What is it in Sweden?
    I'm sure someone will come up with an answer but for it to be available in Germany it would need to have TuV approval and it will still invalidate any warranty. I think Audi are more concerned with their responsibility to the environment than to remappers making money from their engines.
    I have to check the engine warranty (edit: I checked: two year (or high mileage) is standard, but then most people by at least another year (or max two) as they are offered fairly reasonable prized and service plan is included), but likely same as in the UK. What's a TuV approval? Insurance issues perhaps? In Sweden the insurance companies had historically not bothered very much with remapped cars (as far as I know), its kind of an semi-legal grey zone.

    Audi is likely more concerned with their income, less so for customer who already bought heir car, and the environment (the latter which as I understand is more dependent on driving style) - if they where, they could offer mapping kits as BMW. However, I also understand Audi to some extent, they of course take every opportunity to protect their money and brand - but sometimes is more fruitful to be pragmatic. I myself likely will not dare to put in a remap (unless proven extremely good and clever [i.e. not "seen"] kit) during the warranty period.
    Last edited by GreatBallsofFire; 26th March 2014 at 17:57.
    Previous: Audi A3, 2.0 tdi sport 2010 lava grey
    Current (since April-14): Audi A3 SB 5d, 2.0 tdi sport, 150 bhp, quattro, manual gear box, Monsoon grey, 17 inch tyres, detachable towbar, radio controlled diesel heater (expensive!), B&O, adaptive xenon light, eletric lumbar control, tyre pressure control, aluminium roof rails, ACC, connectivity package, rear parking assist, light & rain assist, interior light package, exterior glossy package. Heated mirrors and seats - standard in (Sweden).

  13. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatBallsofFire View Post
    I have to check the engine warranty, but likely same as in the UK. What's a TuV approval? Insurance issues perhaps? In Sweden the insurance companies had historically not bothered very much with remapped cars (as far as I know), its kind of an semi-legal grey zone.

    Audi is likely more concerned with their income, less so for customer who already bought heir car, and the environment (the latter which as I understand is more dependent on driving style) - if they where, they could offer mapping kits as BMW. However, I also understand Audi to some extent, they of course take every opportunity to protect their money and brand - but sometimes is more fruitful to be pragmatic. I myself likely will not dare to put in a remap (unless proven extremely good and clever [i.e. not "seen"] kit) during the warranty period.
    TuV is an organisation in Germany that has to approval products are safe for sale to the public. As far as cars are concerned any aftermarket item fitted to a car in Germany is only legal if it has TuV approval. Even things like different wheels etc. Each manufacturer of these items has to submit the for approval together with a list of cars that they intended for.

    Another point is that it is expected that in the near future the EU will impose another check in the annual test like the UK MOT test (starts when the car is three years old) which will not allow a car to pass if the engine has been modified in any way from the original EU Type Approval for that particular model. Now that could cause some problems, but it is all to do with making sure a car still meets the engine emission standards that it did when it was introduced.
    Dave R (h5djr)
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    A3 8V 2.0 TDI-184 Sportback Sport s-tronic quattro - Silver + lots of options - my 9th A3

  14. #13
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    Thanks for the clarification. If its only comes down to emission, mapping could perhaps make it through the future tests (but best is detachable mapping of course). Shame Audi do not offer manual quattro 184, then I would have bought one of those (I know you very much is in favour for the S-tronic though )
    Previous: Audi A3, 2.0 tdi sport 2010 lava grey
    Current (since April-14): Audi A3 SB 5d, 2.0 tdi sport, 150 bhp, quattro, manual gear box, Monsoon grey, 17 inch tyres, detachable towbar, radio controlled diesel heater (expensive!), B&O, adaptive xenon light, eletric lumbar control, tyre pressure control, aluminium roof rails, ACC, connectivity package, rear parking assist, light & rain assist, interior light package, exterior glossy package. Heated mirrors and seats - standard in (Sweden).

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatBallsofFire View Post
    And due to the money to be earned I am pretty convinced someone will make it sooner or later.
    As far as I know the ECU has been out 18 months so far and not been cracked. I wouldn't base a decision on buy/not buy of a tuning box believing it will be available any time soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatBallsofFire View Post
    (I know you very much is in favour for the S-tronic though )
    That's because we are lazy

  16. #15
    That's because we are lazy
    Speak for yourself - I like the s-tronic because it's the best form of 'manual' gear change offered on the A3
    Dave R (h5djr)
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    A3 8V 2.0 TDI-184 Sportback Sport s-tronic quattro - Silver + lots of options - my 9th A3

  17. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by arad85 View Post
    As far as I know the ECU has been out 18 months so far and not been cracked. I wouldn't base a decision on buy/not buy of a tuning box believing it will be available any time soon.

    That's because we are lazy
    Touché

    I probably have to give in when its time for my next A3 - Well, there are wors ethings than being "lazy", or should we call it comfortable?

    I can wait two more years, if I have to - finally someone will break it. In any case, 150 hp (140 in my current) is usually sufficient for my 70 km daily commuting But 180 hp is more fun if course
    Previous: Audi A3, 2.0 tdi sport 2010 lava grey
    Current (since April-14): Audi A3 SB 5d, 2.0 tdi sport, 150 bhp, quattro, manual gear box, Monsoon grey, 17 inch tyres, detachable towbar, radio controlled diesel heater (expensive!), B&O, adaptive xenon light, eletric lumbar control, tyre pressure control, aluminium roof rails, ACC, connectivity package, rear parking assist, light & rain assist, interior light package, exterior glossy package. Heated mirrors and seats - standard in (Sweden).

  18. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by h5djr View Post
    Speak for yourself - I like the s-tronic because it's the best form of 'manual' gear change offered on the A3
    Hmm
    Previous: Audi A3, 2.0 tdi sport 2010 lava grey
    Current (since April-14): Audi A3 SB 5d, 2.0 tdi sport, 150 bhp, quattro, manual gear box, Monsoon grey, 17 inch tyres, detachable towbar, radio controlled diesel heater (expensive!), B&O, adaptive xenon light, eletric lumbar control, tyre pressure control, aluminium roof rails, ACC, connectivity package, rear parking assist, light & rain assist, interior light package, exterior glossy package. Heated mirrors and seats - standard in (Sweden).

  19. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatBallsofFire View Post
    But 180 hp is more fun if course
    230+hp is even better

  20. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by arad85 View Post
    230+hp is even better
    Sure is, congrats but mainly on autobahn. For me its not crucial..yet. 180 will be fine for me. Or even if I have to settle with the original 150. Quattro is more important (remember, this is me, and only my views).
    Previous: Audi A3, 2.0 tdi sport 2010 lava grey
    Current (since April-14): Audi A3 SB 5d, 2.0 tdi sport, 150 bhp, quattro, manual gear box, Monsoon grey, 17 inch tyres, detachable towbar, radio controlled diesel heater (expensive!), B&O, adaptive xenon light, eletric lumbar control, tyre pressure control, aluminium roof rails, ACC, connectivity package, rear parking assist, light & rain assist, interior light package, exterior glossy package. Heated mirrors and seats - standard in (Sweden).

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatBallsofFire View Post
    Sure is, congrats but mainly on autobahn..
    Personally I enjoy acceleration over maximum speed and it is more useful for overtaking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arad85 View Post
    Personally I enjoy acceleration over maximum speed and it is more useful for overtaking.
    I certainly would not argue against that. Do you have a tuning box?
    Previous: Audi A3, 2.0 tdi sport 2010 lava grey
    Current (since April-14): Audi A3 SB 5d, 2.0 tdi sport, 150 bhp, quattro, manual gear box, Monsoon grey, 17 inch tyres, detachable towbar, radio controlled diesel heater (expensive!), B&O, adaptive xenon light, eletric lumbar control, tyre pressure control, aluminium roof rails, ACC, connectivity package, rear parking assist, light & rain assist, interior light package, exterior glossy package. Heated mirrors and seats - standard in (Sweden).

  23. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatBallsofFire View Post
    I certainly would not argue against that. Do you have a tuning box?
    Yes. A DTUK one. Had it installed for a week and love it so far.

  24. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by arad85 View Post
    Yes. A DTUK one. Had it installed for a week and love it so far.
    What effect did it have on your Insurance premium?
    Proud Owner - A3 Sportback 2 lt Quattro - S Line - Daytona Grey

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    Quote Originally Posted by andy203 View Post
    What effect did it have on your Insurance premium?
    It is down on my insurance as "Engine management chip - changed" as it was the best compromise we could come to. About +£40/year on ~£400/year fully comp. (I'm part way through the year, so don't have the exact figures for a full year). So a 10% hike. That's for me and my partner driving (50 & 42).

    You may do better/worse if your insurance has a different classification for the box (we're with LV this year).

 

 

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