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  1. #1
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    Any plumbers/heating engineers on the forum??

    I'm in need of some advice regarding the best choice of boiler!

    I recently moved into a 4 bed detached house which has a vented hot water cylinder which so far we have had no problems with but our previous house had a combi boiler!
    Our most recent gas bill was very high £400 so I'm now thinking are we due a more Eco boiler, this boiler was fitted when house was built 8 years ago and hasn't being serviced!!

    There are only 2 of us at the moment but I'm just looking for the most cost effective solution cos no way I can keep paying £400 each quarter!

    thanks in advance
    lee

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  3. #2
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    Hi Lee,
    I guess the first thing to do, if you have not already, is to check the controller to see what times the C/H is on for. And the temp.
    If you are both out at work, you could reset it for the periods you need it. Early morning and evenings.
    Most controllers have basic programs such as that in memory. I'm chary of writing this because you probably know already. Grannies and eggs.
    Is the flame in the viewing port a nice blue colour. Or yellowish. Yellowish, get it seen to fast. You say you have a vented h/w tank. Have you then an small expansion tank near it. Is the water in it clear or a rust colour. Dirty, rusty colour, no inhibitor. Rusting, from the inside, rads.= Thermal barrier and leaks. Air in the rads when you crack the bleed valves, same thing. Actually hydrogen gas. Un-insulated system distribution pipes, very common .
    Bear in mind, again, sorry, moving to, I'm assuming, a larger house, and detached, = bigger bills. However £400 per quarter, hm.

    Regards, Ken
    Last edited by Jinnek44; 1st January 2013 at 21:06.

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    Hi ken
    thanks for quick reply!
    yeh I'm a sparky by trade so I'm clued up on most things the settings are only on morn and evening and temps turned down as low as poss before too cold! Ill have to check with colour etc yes tank in loft.
    obviously we were expecting higher bills but speaking with the in laws who live in a slightly bigger house they have there heating on 24/7 (sane system) just on stat and there's isn't even that high!
    Cheers

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    Just checked boiler and there isn't a viewing slot for flame just a burner light

  6. #5
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    Any plumbers/heating engineers on the forum??

    Hi lee what boiler do u have???

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    It's a glow worm micron 50FF

  8. #7
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    Any plumbers/heating engineers on the forum??

    Ok. Not the most efficient boiler but not to bad.
    1 how high is the thermostat behind the grey cover on the boiler set?
    2When the heating is on are the radiators very hot from top to bottom???

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    Hi,
    Don't know what else to say, again, sorry, is it only gas consumption @ £400. Not both combined.
    An 8yr old boiler should still be in reasonable condition.
    And my internally rusted rads would not really make a lot of difference. House insulation in general ? Victorian villa, new build.
    Lots of cooking, for 2 ?? Check gas consumption thro meter. Faulty.? I mean , 2 periods a day, plus cooking, how much can you use.

    Regards, Ken

  10. #9
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    Any plumbers/heating engineers on the forum??

    The other issue could be household insulation.
    Is the loft well insulated(should be 11 inches these days)
    Does the house have cavity wall insulation?
    There are grants available to have these done for free/very little at present just google it

  11. #10
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    The one on the front of the boiler was on full but I've just turned it down a bit, the main room stat is on 18 and non of trv's are on full I believe all rads get red hot through out

  12. #11
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    Any plumbers/heating engineers on the forum??

    The micron range does have issues with the thermistor in the boiler which can get out of calibration and not heat the rads as hot as it should. Have you had any flashing green lights on the boiler recently???

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    I'm ordering my new boiler tomorrow, I've got a 3 bedroom detached and have gone for a worcester bosch Greenstar 18Ri as that is the bigest I could fit without changing the internal heating pipe work. One thing to note is that I'm having to change the gas pipe going to the boiler currently got 15mm and it looks like most current boilers need 22mm (or at least the bosch ones do).

    Have a quick look at this as it may give you an idea of what boiler you could fit.
    Find a new boiler with Find a boiler - Worcester, Bosch Group UK homeowner site

  14. #13
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    Any plumbers/heating engineers on the forum??

    Where are u based lee. If local I may be able to stick my head in and have a look. As u will know being a sparks, it's hard to diagnose over the phone/texts

    Mark

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    Can't say I've noticed as its out in the garage! Just use the programmer and stat.
    Would the fact it hasn't being serviced since installed make it any less efficient?
    Which is most economical vented or a new condensing combi?

  16. #15
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    Any plumbers/heating engineers on the forum??

    B5nut. Not a bad choice of boiler that mate. Think the 24ri can run on 22mm flow and returns aswell

    Mark

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    I'm in ossett, wakefield mate

  18. #17
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    Any plumbers/heating engineers on the forum??

    As said check all controls are working. Room stat and cylinder stat are switching when demand is met. Also check boiler stat.

    But it will be rubbish compared to a combi. Iv been fitting ideal logic+ for a couple years, been getting 7 yr warranties on them, can't go wrong and never had any issues with them.
    57 A3 2.0 TDI Sportback (140)

  19. #18
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    Any plumbers/heating engineers on the forum??

    Servicing isn't really going to affect efficiency. All boilers now are condensing, (combi or conventional). Combi heats water on demand. Conventional has separate water cylinder. How many bathrooms do you have???

  20. #19
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    Any plumbers/heating engineers on the forum??

    Quote Originally Posted by B5NUT View Post
    I'm ordering my new boiler tomorrow, I've got a 3 bedroom detached and have gone for a worcester bosch Greenstar 18Ri as that is the bigest I could fit without changing the internal heating pipe work. One thing to note is that I'm having to change the gas pipe going to the boiler currently got 15mm and it looks like most current boilers need 22mm (or at least the bosch ones do).

    Have a quick look at this as it may give you an idea of what boiler you could fit.
    Find a new boiler with Find a boiler - Worcester, Bosch Group UK homeowner site
    Depends on pipe length and consumption mate. Any boiler around that size will need 22mm usually, some of the combos which are knocking on near 40kw are needing 28mm, plus requirements from any other appliances
    57 A3 2.0 TDI Sportback (140)

  21. #20
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    House is only 8 years old itself so insulation wise should be up to scratch! £400 was just gas! We were paying £77 DD per month for both but just noticed tonight they've upped it to £124 hense me looking into it more.
    We don't do loads of cooking really, don't use gas fire, do have a gas hob, but wife does have a bath every night then washes hair every morning so had me thinking is the tank cold more than hot

    house has one main bathroom and one en-suite both showers on pumps on thermostatic and one power shower I think

  22. #21
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    Right just been round and felt some of the radiators and some are hotter at the top than the bottom! Does this mean anything?

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    Lee.
    Re rads. Suggests sludge at bottoms of rads, or poor flow thro the TRV's. ie Not fast enough circulation.
    Could I ask. "We were paying £77 DD per month for both" I presume you mean £77 for each utility. It's now £124 each ? How did you get to £400. ?
    Just a thought, are you in a high lime-scale area. If no inhibitor, thought of build-up on the inner faces of the boiler heat-exchanger causing a barrier. I've never seen it, we have very soft water here. Clutching at straws.
    Problem is , at your cost= gas consumption the boiler would have to be running for long periods, and flat out.
    One thing I would say is, if you decide on a new boiler, get it installed within the house proper. Not the garage. Remember, the boiler itself is a giant radiator. Just checked mine. Outer casing is at 95F ish. No point in wasting heat.

    Regards, Ken

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    Another thought, if you go for a new boiler, I would not get a combi, after having a system boiler - stored water. You'll get a shock.
    I remember the first I fitted, a Potterton, I got the Potterton guy out because the hot flow was so dismal. Thought there was something wrong. And the delay you have, of course. Drives me mad. But possibly you already know.

    Ken

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    The DD for both gas and electric was £77 and is now £124
    the bill for both during oct-dec was £374 and the gas alone was around £295
    I'm not sure of the hardness of water here, well our garage is and in-built one surely if it wasn't an ideal position it wouldn't have been installed there initially?

  26. #25
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    Any plumbers/heating engineers on the forum??

    Well £295 is roughly 5500 kWhrs based on average gas price and efficiency. Considering the average annual usage is around 16000 in the UK, that doesn't seem too bad to me? Considering its some of the coldest months of the year. Are you comparing like for like periods of usage when you're comparing bills.

    I would also say, due to the size of your place you would need more than a combi to get decent performance on your hot water. Maybe a megaflo cylinder or similar. Or if you really can't stand gas prices, might be worth looking into ASHPs.
    57 A3 2.0 TDI Sportback (140)

  27. #26
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    Any plumbers/heating engineers on the forum??

    I pay about the same for gas and leccy. Same 4 bed house. What I find makes a difference is leaving the heating on. If you switch it off at night and during the day, the house will take ages to heat up with the boiler going full whack. Leave it on trickle and house heats up in no time. Don't forget 4 bed houses can be large. I have 15 rads in my house and my old 3 bed semi only had 7. It's like going from a 1 litre petrol to a 2.0. It's clearly gonna cost you more. However if it only 2 of you then I guess you don't use half the rooms so switch the rads off

  28. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgooch View Post
    If you switch it off at night and during the day, the house will take ages to heat up with the boiler going full whack. Leave it on trickle and house heats up in no time. Don't forget 4 bed houses can be large.
    This is only true in old, thick walled stone properties - if it's well insulated (cavity walls and loft insulation) it is always cheaper to only have the heating on when you need it....
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  29. #28
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    My house is a new build and 10 years old. Trust me cheaper to keep heating on

  30. #29
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    My boiler must be 25-30 years old its a old worchester heat slave. I pay £100/month for a 4 bed 1970`s house never had it serviced just cleaned it myself and done a few bits to it, new pump, pressure vessel motor over run board but as it just eats a thermocouple every 2 years I think i`ll stick with the old girl lol
    red to red black to black blue to bits

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    Lee,
    That does seem a huge imbalance between the two services. About 3:1. No, in fact it's a bit higher. Something not right there.
    Just a thought, when you bought the house, did you get a sight of the consumption/bills from the energy bit of the home report.
    Again, the boiler furring was just an idea. Pity no one else commented.
    Re the boiler placement, forget ideal. A guy on a fixed price job. Main question, what's the easiest and fastest for me. I'm not going to live in it.
    Being an electrician, as I was to start with, you'll know of stories of corner cutting and fiddling.

    Regards, Ken

  32. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by sportstractor View Post
    As said check all controls are working. Room stat and cylinder stat are switching when demand is met. Also check boiler stat.
    deffo check this, girl i know had all the trvs set quite low (to save gas) and the main stat at 22deg, boiler working flat out to try and get the temp up to 22 lol
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    Well I've got rads in rooms I don't use and bathrooms down at 2 then kitchen and lounge at 3/4
    then stat is currently at 18

  34. #33
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    does it ever get to 18 by the stat? be interesting to get a thermometer next to it
    VCDS in North Wales
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  35. #34
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    Yeh the stat does knock it's self off although if not tested since adjusting trv's

  36. #35
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    Ive got 1930's 3 bed semi, high lime scale area, paying about same as orignal poster for gas per month in winter.

    I've got double glazing, loft and floor insulation but walls solid so no cavety insulation possible. House is a ***** to heat even with big bills still feels cold people complain, never been able to work it out, Im sitting here in my coat at mo.
    2002 A3 1.8T

  37. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by MingeBlue View Post
    Ive got 1930's 3 bed semi, high lime scale area, paying about same as orignal poster for gas per month in winter.

    I've got double glazing, loft and floor insulation but walls solid so no cavety insulation possible. House is a ***** to heat even with big bills still feels cold people complain, never been able to work it out, Im sitting here in my coat at mo.
    get a thermal imaging camera and stand outside with it
    VCDS in North Wales
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  38. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ste_Nova View Post
    get a thermal imaging camera and stand outside with it
    How much is one of these I wonder?



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    HSS Hire have them to rent for a weekend...

  40. #39
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    Just had my new boiler fitted today, and what an improvement, the overall heating system was cheacked and the system flushed & balanced as some of the radiators were not getting very hot. One thing I did notice is that the heat comming off the old flue was so dam hot, you could not put your hand over it, the new boiler is kicking out very little heat from of the flue, over all well worth the money, almost looking forward to next 1/4 bill....

  41. #40
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    Any plumbers/heating engineers on the forum??

    That's because its condensing, so flue gases are a lot lower, also if its room sealed, which its probably is, the external section of the flue pipe is actually the air intake.

    You will notice a fair reduction in your bills
    57 A3 2.0 TDI Sportback (140)

 

 
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