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View Poll Results: Do you support the strike...?

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32. You may not vote on this poll
  • I'm a Public Sector worker and I DO suport the strike

    2 6.25%
  • I'm a Public Sector worker and I DON'T support the strike

    1 3.13%
  • I'm a Private Sector worker and I DO support the strike

    0 0%
  • I'm a Private Sector worker and I DON'T support the strike

    29 90.63%
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  1. #1
    beanoir's Avatar
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    Do you support the strikes...?

    Just wondering what the general consensus is on this and what level of support the country does or doesn't have for the strike.
    Last edited by beanoir; 30th November 2011 at 13:45.
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  3. #2
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    Nice poll.

    I don't support them, and I do work in the public sector, and am being affected as much as anyone. Some people need to be welcomed back into the real world I think. Who's being affected most by this? The parent having to use up their valuable annual leave because the teachers are happy to let down the kids they promised to educate? The patient who's appointment is cancelled (again?), the patient who dies because the paramedics don't reach them in time as their colleagues are on strike. Or the family who've worked hard and saved all year for an annual holiday having it wrecked by airport staff.

    Or the government?
    Last edited by quattrojames; 30th November 2011 at 13:51. Reason: Spelling
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  4. #3
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    I work in the private sector and believe they should be grateful they even have jobs in current situation the country is in.
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    Well I work in the private sector too, and I don't support the right for anybody to strike.

    My other half works for the CPS, my brother for the local council and my dad works in education, they all believe they are lucky to still have jobs and feel striking is not the way forward.

    I'm not sure if anybody is actually listening are they? They're certainly not gaining any support, even from within the public sector and their peers as far as I can tell.
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    I'm a Private Sector worker and I DON'T support the strike. BUT I would like to point out that my beloved IS a public sector worker on less than 8k per year and she does NOT support them either, despite this she has been forced to today due to the teacher she assists deciding 2 days ago that he would like to take the day off, now she loses a days pay because of him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by quattrojames View Post
    Nice poll.

    I don't support them, and I do work in the public sector, and am being affected as much as anyone. Some people need to be welcomed back into the real world I think. Who's being affected most by this? The parent having to use up their valuable annual leave because the teachers are happy to let down the kids they promised to educate? The patient who's appointment is cancelled (again?), the patient who dies because the paramedics don't reach them in time as their colleagues are on strike. Or the family who've worked hard and saved all year for an annual holiday having it wrecked by airport staff.

    Or the government?
    You know what, I really get the impression that the only people who want this strike are the militant far left who will do anything to be anti Tory. But hey lets leave the politics for another happier day yes ?

  8. #7
    beanoir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lippyrich View Post
    You know what, I really get the impression that the only people who want this strike are the militant far left who will do anything to be anti Tory. But hey lets leave the politics for another happier day yes ?
    I believe you are right, living in the 70s.

    I actually think that even our Tory government are not going far enough with the current austerity measures. The entire public sector needs a BIG shake up and probably about 20% reduction of dead wood. Then keep a better pension and pay deal for those hard workers that are left.
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  9. #8
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    I can sympathise the reasoning but it was Labours blinkered handling of the recession causing this shortfall so no don't agree.
    Oh and private sector employee here who soon will be balloted for strike action because of pensions as well.

  10. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanoir View Post
    I believe you are right, living in the 70s.

    I actually think that even our Tory government are not going far enough with the current austerity measures. The entire public sector needs a BIG shake up and probably about 20% reduction of dead wood. Then keep a better pension and pay deal for those hard workers that are left.
    One of the worst things are the managers who feel they need more staff to do their work thus making them available to go to more meetings to discuss how best to reduce their budgets without they themselves reducing their remuneration package or increasing their workload. Dare I say it but a lot of those are left of centre in their beliefs.

  11. #10
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    Private sector and don't support them.

    I wound down the window, stuck two fingers up and shouted "be thankful you've got a job you ungreatful *****" at EVERY line of strikers I passed on the way to work this morning. I dare say I won't see any on the way home as it's raining now.

    I don't class all public sector workers as lazy jobworths nor do I believe they all get paid handsome salaries and work ridiculously short hours. I just can't understand how people can not see that the current pension structure is completely unsustainable in the long term and has been for a long time unless we want to leave an even bigger mess for our children to deal with. My generation (in my mid thirties now) will supposedly be the first to do worse than their parents (the baby boomers). I don't want the same to be true for my children.
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  12. #11
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    The Mrs works for Social Services and I am astonished with what goes on, levels of sickness, claims, petty squabbling, abuse of the rules and a Gazzillion tiers of managers that all seem top do the same thing is hard to believe. This simply would not be tolerated in the private sector companies I have been involved with.

    Its nothing short of disgusting and all this has to be paid for by taxed private sector income generated by the Private sector.
    Its gone on long enough IMO, a big clear out of the crap is what is needed here which will go somewhere to protecting the benefits afforded to those who turn up everyday and do an honest days work.

    Get this sorted, shut the borders and euthanise Chavs and close family and we will be good shape in 12months.
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  13. #12
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    @PaulAr.Agreed that public services management needs shaking up and the crap managers got rid of.It wont happen because we have gone way too far down the political correctness road.Weeding out the useless is damn near impossible as cries of bullying/harassment because im black/disabled/single parent/gay/bi/trans etc terrify those that want to prune.
    Do i support the strikes?Damn right I do.Unfortunately in my occupation I am unable to strike.Imagine at the start of your employment signing up for a a certain wage, pension and service and then years on being told that you have to work and extra 5-10 years, for less money, less pension whilst contributing more???And were supposed to roll over and say OK? Whilst the bankers etc havent been touched and unwanted residents flood in stealing our tax contributions?I dont think so.So Labour sold us down the river selling our gold etc.But this was a world problem and the opposition must have seen it coming too, but did nothing.So they are all to blame, and the public for keeping labour in who are responsible for the immigration problem we have and the fact that i cant say 'manhole' or 'blackboard' in an open audience.Ive voted tory for the last thirty years but no more.I vote for the local nutter......cant do any worse
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  14. #13
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    I support what the strikes are standing for, but don't support the strikes themselves.
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  15. #14
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    not trying to be funny but what's going on?
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    Scott aren't you on strike everyday?

    BBC News - Public sector strike rallies held across UK
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  17. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by quattrojames View Post
    Scott aren't you on strike everyday?

    BBC News - Public sector strike rallies held across UK
    I'd wish at least then I'd have something to do and greater reason to get up out of bed.


    in to defend my self before people ask or flame me. I don't watch tele, read the paper or generally pay any attention to the out side world. I don't like it and its slowly killing its self and as such I'd rather stay in my own safe little bubble where its warm and grass is allways green.
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  18. #17
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    just reading that article james, I'm shocked that people who spent or will spend their lives in the care and well being of others would go on strike and risk so many other peoples lives, all them operations, emergency services, hospitals and school.

    I'm off to my bubble.
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  19. #18
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    There is a very left wing/archaic belief among many that because they provide a service that they should somehow benefit by being insulated from what everybody else is suffering from. As said above, this is 2011 and things have changed, every person that works in the public sector does so for a wage and other benefits including a pension, thats their reward for turning up everyday and "providing a service". Why do they think they are entitled to anything more, they're not superheroes, they're not changing the world, they're doing a job like all the rest of us.

    I do have some sympathy for those that are suffering changes to their terms and conditions that affect their pension and salary. I understand this because I have also suffered similar as have many others of us that work in the private sector. So I do understand.

    My real issue is that striking is harmful to the rest of the economy and is done without due regard to others. There are other ways to negotiate in this day and age, it's just a shame the public sector hasn't caught up yet. I have had the pleasure of working alongside the public sector for many years from central government departments and quasi bodies, through to local governments and emergency services. I can assure anybody that this behemoth has become the most inefficiently managed establishment in the country. High levels of long term sick, the wrong people in the wrong jobs, to much hierarchy, unaccountability and no real drive. This must change and I believe it is, but very slowly.

    Striking affects thousands of other people to a lesser or greater degree be it financially or otherwise, these people will no longer support the cause because the strikes are seen as a selfish act without due consideration to the rest of the country. How many people have had to take a day of work to look after their children either as holiday or a days wages, many of them will be hard up too and I bet they could do without this added burden.

    Until the unions are quashed and the public sector understands they must modernise and stop wasting time, effort and precious tax payers money on what amounts to personal crusades, then I do not in any way support them.

    We as a nation are all in this s**t together.
    Last edited by beanoir; 30th November 2011 at 21:51.
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  20. #19
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    We have run out of money.

    Public sector will have to wait for the private sector to recover from this economic disaster. Then they can increase the requests for better benefits as we will be able to increase the minimum payments on the credit card.

    Anyway, if we shut the hospitals for a year it would save us a fortune. The resulting early deaths from ill health caused by the closures would mean less people claiming a pension later in life, which would save us a fortune and make pension for those alive more achievable.

    In fact, another solution is to increase the speed limit of all UK roads, that would mean more deaths, fewer claimants on Pensions, and more money for the rest of us.
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  21. #20
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    I'm not suggesting folk should start reading the Daily Mail, lol, but these figures are simply staggering: Public sector workers can get pensions worth 20 times value of contributions | Mail Online

  22. #21
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    No. I don't support the strikes..!

    They have been organised by the 'usual suspect' political agitators on the basis of 'rigged/loaded' ballots......... The criteria for strike action should be based (as most people wrongly assume it is) on a majority of those 'entitled to vote', and not on a majority of those who 'do actually vote'.... This is the way all sorts of militants, commies, fascists, quangos, etc etc, get want they want,,,, they rig the question, then rely of the apathy of the masses...!

    In terms of pensions, yes the goal posts have been moved,,,, but as it's my taxes paying for their pension (as well as my own), I think they should be more F**KING GRATEFUL, bow their heads in shame, go back to work, and remember just how well off they still are.!
    In my personal opinion

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    Myth of public-pension Sir Humphreys | Business

    It's nice and easy to slaughter public sector pensions.. but frankly, it's all spin...

    George Osborne's every blow falls on those with less not more | Polly Toynbee | Comment is free | The Guardian

    I'm fine with any of you guys disagreeing with my right to strike.. but I would ask that you read the second link.. it talks about tax evasion and tax avoidance by the rich in this country, to the tune of some 95bn!! and this government stands idly by and allows it to happen... We are all in this together?! really.... don't make me laugh.. please read it..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Plain Old View Post


    In terms of pensions, yes the goal posts have been moved,,,, but as it's my taxes paying for their pension (as well as my own), I think they should be more F**KING GRATEFUL, bow their heads in shame, go back to work, and remember just how well off they still are.!
    Can you explain how your taxes pay for my pension?..

  25. #24
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    This thread has nothing to do with the rich tax dodgers, it's about the strikes today.

    I read that article, it's the typical junk I would expect to read in the Guardian, one sided and blinkered, but thanks. For your information, EVERY single government has allowed the super rich to avoid being heavily penalised, and they have a very good reason for doing so, because without those "rich tax dodgers" our country would actually be worse off. But you won't read that in the Guardian because they forget to mention the true effect such policies would have otherwise they wouldn't sell papers to their target audience.

    As you rightly identified, it's all spin....thats the great thing about newspapers they are biased so you believe the ones that say what you want to hear.
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  26. #25
    Just Plain Old's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arch-stanton View Post
    Can you explain how your taxes pay for my pension?..
    Are you serious..??? (I assume you are a state employee?)
    In my personal opinion

  27. #26
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    The shocking thing is that public sector pensions are not paid out through and annuity as is the case with a private pension, but they are largely funded through council tax payment. So when you see all these ex-public sector pensioners, many of whom will have retired in their fifties up until recently, they are being kept alive through your council tax. Here is a freedom of information request to a council on the subject which is well worth a read and is actually quite funny: Council tax/pensions - a Freedom of Information request to Falkirk Council - WhatDoTheyKnow.
    My biggest disrespect is towards civil servants who take early retirement and then take up another job in the public sector thus doing a younger person out of a job whilst claiming their first pension. I've seen a good few ex-coppers do this for example.
    Last edited by a3tdi2001; 30th November 2011 at 23:42.

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    Beanoir..

    Apologies for going off topic.. I was trying to make the point about us all being in this together.. and clearly, we aren't! there are a lot of ways the government can raise revenue as well as modifying public sector pensions..

    You're right, every government hasn't addressed the issue of tax avoidance and tax evasion.. but this government is the one saying we are all in this together and is telling us that the only way we will get out of it, is to attack not just the public sector.. but every working man.. that's you and me and probably everyone on this forum..

    Can you explain to me how, for example; if the government close the loophole of the rich avoiding paying stamp duty, by purchasing their house with an offshore account... How that will not benefit this country?.. surely you can see that?!

    I take your point about the media saying what they believe they want us to hear... but can that not be true of government as well then?! ..
    This works perfectly for government, making you believe (private sector) that it's all our fault (public sector) ... deflecting away perfectly from whose fault this mess is...

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    Just plain old..
    Yeah I'm serious.. !
    Do you pay different taxes to me?!

  30. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by arch-stanton View Post
    Just plain old..
    Yeah I'm serious.. !
    Do you pay different taxes to me?!
    Probably, but that's not the point..... Your pension pot comes from the taxpayer!

    I have no problem with you having a different political/personal outlook to me, or anyone else, but the reason you are striking is because of a rigged ballot....... I think the worse example, not sure what union it was, less than 20% of those entitled to vote voted in favour of strike action,,,, but they got a 'majority' in favour.!
    In my personal opinion

  31. #30
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    anyone who trust the goverment with there money wants there head looking at, who in the right mind wants a bunch of thiving barstools holding onto there money and living in hope that there will be some left for them when and if they live to see it?

    Not me, I earn my money and invest it in what i see fit to, it was property years ago, but now its gold and silver that i keep locked away in..................like im about to tell the internet!

  32. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by arch-stanton View Post
    Can you explain to me how, for example; if the government close the loophole of the rich avoiding paying stamp duty, by purchasing their house with an offshore account... How that will not benefit this country?.. surely you can see that?!
    Because you'd end up with less of the super rich buying property in this country they'd buy in other countries, or they'd rent or else. The net effect of penalising the super rich is that you ultimately lose them altogether, and the country can't afford to do that. You'll find that that their country of residence is of little bother to most of them, and if ours decides to penalise them they'll take up residence somewhere else, many of them are jet-setting around so much it makes little difference to them.

    What would you lose? Well, the super rich are already paying one hell of a lot more tax than you or I do in a life time, and as a group even with their tax avoidance measures they still contribute about 15% of the countries personal tax income, if I was running the country, i'd value that at the moment. I agree they could be forced to pay more, but at what risk, losing the wealthy and ending up with something lower than 15% - just to keep the lower earners and the lefties happy, helps votes but doesn't make for a sensible economic policy.

    Quote Originally Posted by arch-stanton View Post
    I take your point about the media saying what they believe they want us to hear... but can that not be true of government as well then?! ..
    This works perfectly for government, making you believe (private sector) that it's all our fault (public sector) ... deflecting away perfectly from whose fault this mess is...
    Absolutely, that why I make my statements from experience (read above), not from reading the papers or listening to politicians.

    I'm intrigued to hear who's fault this mess is...?
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    Just plain old;

    But I am a taxpayer myself.. and I make my contributions into a pension fund....?

    Re the votes, I agree with you fully... but to have a 100% fair ballot, 100% of members have to vote.. and that is nigh on impossible to achieve.. but agreed, the system is flawed..

  34. #33
    Just Plain Old's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arch-stanton View Post
    Just plain old;

    But I am a taxpayer myself.. and I make my contributions into a pension fund....?
    Yes, and as a taxpayer I also make a contribution to your pension fund,,, but you dont make any contribution to mine....!
    In my personal opinion

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Plain Old View Post
    Yes, and as a taxpayer I also make a contribution to your pension fund,,, but you dont make any contribution to mine....!
    Glad we've sorted that, you don't actually pay my pension, you make a contribution to it, just like you contribute to say, educating someone elses kids, other people receiving hospital treatment, others on benefits, policing the streets, emptying the bins etc...

    Now, you and me will disagree on whether that is right or not, but surely you can see how aggrieved I am by having the goalposts moved 20 years down the line?..

    Imagine buying a car, then a few years later, the previous owner comes back to you and says 'actually mate, that motor is going to last longer, I'd like some more money off you please'...

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    Quote Originally Posted by beanoir View Post
    Because you'd end up with less of the super rich buying property in this country they'd buy in other countries, or they'd rent or else. The net effect of penalising the super rich is that you ultimately lose them altogether, and the country can't afford to do that. You'll find that that their country of residence is of little bother to most of them, and if ours decides to penalise them they'll take up residence somewhere else, many of them are jet-setting around so much it makes little difference to them.

    What would you lose? Well, the super rich are already paying one hell of a lot more tax than you or I do in a life time, and as a group even with their tax avoidance measures they still contribute about 15% of the countries personal tax income, if I was running the country, i'd value that at the moment. I agree they could be forced to pay more, but at what risk, losing the wealthy and ending up with something lower than 15% - just to keep the lower earners and the lefties happy, helps votes but doesn't make for a sensible economic policy.



    Absolutely, that why I make my statements from experience (read above), not from reading the papers or listening to politicians.

    I'm intrigued to hear who's fault this mess is...?
    Beanoir, 15% doesn't seem that much to me.. I read somewhere that the top 5% of earners in this country only contribute the same amount of tax as the lowest 5% of earners in this country... there's something fundamentally wrong there..

    It would take a better fiscal mind than mine, to explain who's fault this is, but I guess you want my opinion.. I think there are a number of issues which have contributed, the previous government certainly didn't help, as did the banking crisis, the failure of the Euro...

    I do know it's not my fault though! and probably not yours... unless you are Gordon Brown..

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    beanoir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arch-stanton View Post
    Beanoir, 15% doesn't seem that much to me..
    Really!? What are you smoking?

    Thats about £23 billion of income every year, without it I can assure you your pension forecasts and terms and conditions would be looking a lot more shaky.

    Quote Originally Posted by arch-stanton View Post
    I read somewhere that the top 5% of earners in this country only contribute the same amount of tax as the lowest 5% of earners in this country... there's something fundamentally wrong there..
    you read that somewhere did you...probably the Guardian again i'm guessing. By the way, you only need to be earning about £58,000 a year to be in the top 5% of earners in the UK, that certainly does not clasify a person as super rich.

    If you do your homework, these are the facts.

    Number 29.5 Million 4.21 Million 421,000 42,000
    Entry level for group £5,093 £35,345 £99,727 £351,137
    Mean value for group £24,769 £49,960 £155,832 £780,043
    Average income tax paid £4,415 £10,550 £49,477 £274,482
    Percentage of personal income tax revenue 27.6% 8.6% 4.2%



    You'll see from this that the top earners do contribute more than their fair share already. This was produced by the Institue of Fiscal Studies by the way.

    And and have you ever looked at the list of Britain's richest people, and how many are of British descent, not many at all I can assure you, and they wouldn't think twice about taking ALL of their wealth elsewhere if we decided to clobber them with stupid high taxes.


    Quote Originally Posted by arch-stanton View Post
    It would take a better fiscal mind than mine, to explain who's fault this is, but I guess you want my opinion.. I think there are a number of issues which have contributed, the previous government certainly didn't help, as did the banking crisis, the failure of the Euro.....
    No, I didn't want your opinion, I wanted to see if you knew the answer, you clearly don't so I don't think you really have an understanding of the whole thing. The problem is too many people are spouting out their opnions or something they've read in the papers, whereas if they laid their political views aside be they right or left, and looked at the hard facts, they'd see the sense of the numbers.

    It's very easy to start having a go at the "super rich" as you like to call them, but are they the ones to blame for this mess, no they're not, many have actually been busy as mostly entrepreneurs investing in this country throughout the financial turmoil. Not only are they paying personal tax, but their companies and businesses are employing people, paying corporation tax and contributing to the economy.

    Whether you like it or not, they are bailing you out already.
    Last edited by beanoir; 1st December 2011 at 10:31.
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    Really surprised to see the lack of support for the strike.....turned out to be a damp squib.Seems that the public will get what they desreve.....a bit like when they kept labour in power.Not massively convinced the Tories would have fared much better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanoir View Post
    Really!? What are you smoking?

    Thats about £23 billion of income every year, without it I can assure you your pension forecasts and terms and conditions would be looking a lot more shaky.



    you read that somewhere did you...probably the Guardian again i'm guessing. By the way, you only need to be earning about £58,000 a year to be in the top 5% of earners in the UK, that certainly does not clasify a person as super rich.

    If you do your homework, these are the facts.

    Number 29.5 Million 4.21 Million 421,000 42,000
    Entry level for group £5,093 £35,345 £99,727 £351,137
    Mean value for group £24,769 £49,960 £155,832 £780,043
    Average income tax paid £4,415 £10,550 £49,477 £274,482
    Percentage of personal income tax revenue 27.6% 8.6% 4.2%





    You'll see from this that the top earners do contribute more than their fair share already. This was produced by the Institue of Fiscal Studies by the way.

    And and have you ever looked at the list of Britain's richest people, and how many are of British descent, not many at all I can assure you, and they wouldn't think twice about taking ALL of their wealth elsewhere if we decided to clobber them with stupid high taxes.




    No, I didn't want your opinion, I wanted to see if you knew the answer, you clearly don't so I don't think you really have an understanding of the whole thing.

    It's very easy to start having a go at the "super rich" as you like to call them, but are they the ones to blame for this mess, no they're not, many have actually been busy as mostly entrepreneurs investing in this country throughout the financial turmoil. Not only are they paying personal tax, but their companies and businesses are employing people, paying corporation tax and contributing to the economy.

    Whether you like it or not, they are bailing you out already.
    My source for the 5% figure came from the Office of National statistics May 2007; The effects of taxes and benefits on household incomes 2005-6 - table 3... so no, not the Guardian..

    And as I said in my post, I didn't know the answer to why we are in this mess.. but it seems you do.. It's just got to be the public sector hasn't it?! It's all our fault.. and you accuse me of being influenced by what I read in the press...

    If the public sector has got it so wrong, then why in 2007-08, when public-sector pensions had a net cost to the taxpayer of £4 billion, did private-sector pension relief cost the taxpayer £37.6 billion? ..

    Hey Beanoir, if we have it so so good in the public sector, why don't you come over and join us on the bandwagon..? Oh hang on, I know, there's a simple answer isn't there... Money...




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    Quote Originally Posted by a3tdi2001 View Post
    The shocking thing is that public sector pensions are not paid out through and annuity as is the case with a private pension, but they are largely funded through council tax payment. So when you see all these ex-public sector pensioners, many of whom will have retired in their fifties up until recently, they are being kept alive through your council tax. Here is a freedom of information request to a council on the subject which is well worth a read and is actually quite funny: Council tax/pensions - a Freedom of Information request to Falkirk Council - WhatDoTheyKnow.
    My biggest disrespect is towards civil servants who take early retirement and then take up another job in the public sector thus doing a younger person out of a job whilst claiming their first pension. I've seen a good few ex-coppers do this for example.

    I must correct you re: the ex coppers that take up public sector jobs 'depriving' the young of a job.They do not take early retirement, they retire after 30 years service which at the outset is what the jobs terms of employment were.30 years paying 11% of wage to thier pension fund.(amazingly they pay for their pension and its not a freebie as per popular thought).So when their service ends, most coppers are in their early fifties which is too early to sit about gardening etc.Plus the life expectancy is considerably shorter than an office bod not having to do 24hr shifts that bugger the body clock, and dealing with things youd never dream of.Needed to clear that point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arch-stanton View Post
    My source for the 5% figure came from the Office of National statistics May 2007; The effects of taxes and benefits on household incomes 2005-6 - table 3... so no, not the Guardian..

    And as I said in my post, I didn't know the answer to why we are in this mess.. but it seems you do.. It's just got to be the public sector hasn't it?! It's all our fault.. and you accuse me of being influenced by what I read in the press...

    If the public sector has got it so wrong, then why in 2007-08, when public-sector pensions had a net cost to the taxpayer of £4 billion, did private-sector pension relief cost the taxpayer £37.6 billion? ..

    Hey Beanoir, if we have it so so good in the public sector, why don't you come over and join us on the bandwagon..? Oh hang on, I know, there's a simple answer isn't there... Money...



    1. That report quotes it as a proportion of their income, not the net amount of tax paid.

    2. I DIDN'T say the financial crisis was caused by the public sector, I said it was casued by the public.

    3. I DIDN'T say the public sector have it good, I said they are suffering like the majority of the working population are.

    Now that you seem to be clutching at straws i'll leave you to peruse the latest piece from Polly in your favourite broadsheet. I don't see any point in having a debate with people when they can't see straight.
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