Thread: Is there a better phone out there than the Iphone 4S?

Upgrade due next month, have an Iphone 3g, am thinking of the 4s, but wondered if there was a better phone out there.

I can see lots of new phones like the Iphone, but do they have the same ease of use, simple updates, and thousands of Apps?

If you could get an Iphone 4s, would you?

I'm in the same position as yourself . I'm not sure something like Htc xl even with it's free headphones will measure up against the iPhone

I put in Htc xl vs iPhone 4s into goggle

From what I read iPhone wins easy

As a mobile phone, it's ok at best, as a multimedia device, it's one of the best in my opinion. Samsung Galaxy S2 is suppose to be up there also, though I've never used one. My delivery driver has an iPhone4(not 4S) and Sony Xperia Arc, and using them side by side, the Sony is quicker and it's touch screen technology is not too far from the iphones one.

Got to admit that prices for iPhone products are always silly, but the phone does hold it's value better than others.

No

Yes, but it depends on what you use it for and what other kit you have at home. As I have a few AirPlay devices having 'i' devices makes sense from a streaming of content perspective. Also as I'm a technical simpleton it makes life much easier for me (when it works as it should!).

Problem is they've become the thing to be seen with even for those who have no real use for it beyond a phone, so when anything gets to universally popular it will accrue its detractors. My challenge is, if it's bad, how can it have turned up so late to the party, turned the industry on its head, and got the biggest producers mimicking it? I worked at one of the UK's largest phone/network providers for nearly 10 years, and I left when they decided it wasn't worth backing (became apparent the company had lost its way). 2 years later they U-Turned..... I wonder why?

Samsung galaxy s2 all the way.

the samsung galaxy S2 is probably by far the best Android phone out there... but not as i am not a fan of Androids i would say stick with iPhones! however stay away from the 4s! a couple reasons why i say this... one is because there are far too many reports of bad battery life on the 4S that apple have tried to fix by already releasing 2 updates on the iOS with another update on its way (iOS 5.1, 5.2 and 5.3 is on its way)
second reason i say not to do that upgrade is this:
iPHONE 5 vs iPHONE 4S! WHY ARE YOU WAITING FOR IPHONE 5?
IPHONE 5 RELEASE DATE, TECH, DESIGN and USABILITY.

in short either hang about on your 3GS and see if you can get a discount on your contract for not upgrading or get another phone until the iPhone 5 comes out... and if you really cannot wait then just get the 4S and enjoy!

There has been for months, the Galaxy S2.

Iphones are for Apple Fags© and people who like to be tied into the evil empire that is Apple. You can't even choose your own ringtones without paying for it FFS?!

Originally Posted by 16Klappe

There has been for months, the Galaxy S2.

Iphones are for Apple Fags© and people who like to be tied into the evil empire that is Apple. You can't even choose your own ringtones without paying for it FFS?!

ge

get educated! ringtones are simple and easy without paying or anything else needed! i make my own ringtones on windows in minutes for my iphone. Make free iPhone ringtones in iTunes 10

as for being tied in a simple jailbreak fixes all that! i have custom text, custom themes and all software free on my iPhone...
the best part is the phone is still simple to use and everything is where its meant to be... icloud makes picture transfer easy and now with wifi syncing iphones are a doddle to work... show me a samsung that can do that?

S2's have full wireless transfer, including WIFI/home intranet accessability from your laptop/pc.

You are suggesting you jailbreak the phone to be able to put decent apps on it, which voids the warranty which being an apple product you WILL need (although, from all of my past Apple dealings it isnt worth the paper it is written on.)

The S2 has a better camera, 1080p recording from launch, a plastic screen which wont break if dropped (unlike the glass ones iphones are noted for), it is half the weight and has a larger screen, the processes are quicker and there are more free applications on Market than on the iphone.

As well as the ability to be able to write your own applications for Android much easier than you ever will in the Apple monopoly.

Interesting you tell me to do some research, because in my experience 90% of hardcore Apple fans havent got a clue about the products they are comparing their fashion statements to.

When you bought your Iphone did you even look at the competition? I was tempted to get an iPhone, but the features on the S2 were far better for me. I take lots of pictures and videos, the expandable memory is a god send, the plastic screen hasnt got a single scratch after months of jangling around with keys in my pocket and being dropped meters high. If I had an Iphone then it WOULD have been broken by now, as well as not being able to expand the memory and use my phone as a proper camera. This thing is EASILY as good as a digital, but its a tenth of size and always in my pocket.


I am not looking to get into an argument over it, but I do get pissed off when people babble on about iCrap this and iCrap that when Apple products are just as flawed and gimicky as any other.

The S2 is technically speaking a better phone, but it lacks the quality and glossy feel of the Apple. So who at the end of the day they are just two overpriced phones that one person will love and the other will hate.

you do have some good points but i am far from as you put it an apple fag!
yes i did look into it when i bought my iphone about a year ago. at the time the samsung galaxy s2 wasnt out im think but that wouldnt matter as like i said im not a fan of android phones. i ran several windows mobiles from 2004 - 2010 and every single one of them had custom firmwares and a whole range of other hacks on them, but it just got to a time when it just became boring and annoying to do all of that so i just wanted simplicity, hence i went for the iphone. before the iphone 4 i never considered one as it was pretty basic and standard until the extra features on the 4 were released (better camera, facetime)

yes the camera on the S2 is outstanding! no doubt about it and there is no argument that it is better than the iphone camera. i think the 4S has a comparable camera now but unfortunate for me the iphone4 camera is nowhere close to the S2.
4S does record in 1080p now so thats also good.

going back to my original post here the first thing i said is that the S2 is the best android phone... im not here to argue that iphone is the best and all that crap... i simply said i dont like android. iphones are simple to use as any iphone user will say, and thats what i was going for... something that just works. a few years of having to make custom roms to get good signal strength and half decent memory allowance without memory leaks can tire you out and the iphone just works without all the extra crap needed to be done.

there are tons of apps for the iphone but the jailbreaks are easy to do and even though they may invalidate warranty, it gives you access to a ton of apps and tweaks. plus just do a full restore on an iphone and the warranty is back! i know this as i have cracked the glass front on my iphone 4 and just done a restore and had the iphone swapped for a new one at apple store!

your post seems very hostile like you have a personal hate towards apple... i dont know why this is but its not healthy! in the end they are a brand... a brand that have a good range of products. im no fan boy of apple, hell i dont even own a Mac, although i sell them all year round, i just like things that work... being in IT for a living it helps to get a product that does the job you need it to... so as long as my iphone does everything i want from it.

so back to the OP, the iphone does everything you want it to, and makes it easy to do so. the 4S with its better camera and showoff SIRI make it attractive enough. would i want one? yes.... would i get one? well seeing as i already have a 4 and the 5 is due out next year, no i dont think i would get one. if one was given to me for free then thats another story. i have considered selling my 4 and just buying a 4S but there isnt enough between them for me to go to the trouble. Would i go for a samsung galaxy S2 over the iphone? NO, in fact i just got the new blackberry bold 9900 but only as its free on my business upgrade... i could have got the samsung but as a 2nd phone i didnt want to carry around 2 bricks that do the same job... at least this way i can still stay in contact with my BB peeps

Originally Posted by 16Klappe

S2's have full wireless transfer, including WIFI/home intranet accessability from your laptop/pc.

You are suggesting you jailbreak the phone to be able to put decent apps on it, which voids the warranty which being an apple product you WILL need (although, from all of my past Apple dealings it isnt worth the paper it is written on.)

The S2 has a better camera, 1080p recording from launch, a plastic screen which wont break if dropped (unlike the glass ones iphones are noted for), it is half the weight and has a larger screen, the processes are quicker and there are more free applications on Market than on the iphone.

As well as the ability to be able to write your own applications for Android much easier than you ever will in the Apple monopoly.

Interesting you tell me to do some research, because in my experience 90% of hardcore Apple fans havent got a clue about the products they are comparing their fashion statements to.

When you bought your Iphone did you even look at the competition? I was tempted to get an iPhone, but the features on the S2 were far better for me. I take lots of pictures and videos, the expandable memory is a god send, the plastic screen hasnt got a single scratch after months of jangling around with keys in my pocket and being dropped meters high. If I had an Iphone then it WOULD have been broken by now, as well as not being able to expand the memory and use my phone as a proper camera. This thing is EASILY as good as a digital, but its a tenth of size and always in my pocket.


I am not looking to get into an argument over it, but I do get pissed off when people babble on about iCrap this and iCrap that when Apple products are just as flawed and gimicky as any other.

The S2 is technically speaking a better phone, but it lacks the quality and glossy feel of the Apple. So who at the end of the day they are just two overpriced phones that one person will love and the other will hate.

I second what this guy says.

From going from the iphone 4 to the samsung galaxy s2, ive not looked back.

The first thing you notice is how incredibly light the S2 is!

Apps wise, there very similar, and the android market is as simple to use.

the only bad points i can think for the S2 for myself was that the standard keyboard for it had the "." button too close to the space bar, but being an android, theres an app for a new keyboard, so that fixed that. and secondly, my battery life is pretty poor, but that may be due to me not charging it for the initial 24 hours straight.

could take a look at this its not out yet but looks pretty cool, end of the day though a phone has to ring and text people every thing else is a plus!

​Galaxy Nexus

PMSL. Here we go again.

My two penneth. After having phone after phone after phone that broke, hung, didn't do what I wanted etc etc, I thought OK then, lets see what all the fuss is over these iphones. I queued up on 'that' Friday morning and got myself an iphone 4s.

Verdict so far.......? I can't fault it. Its a good phone and does everything I want and more. Is it better than the Galaxy S2? I have no idea because I've never had one. Would I argue with someone that my iphone is better than their Galaxy S2? No because I've never had an S2, so I can't put up an informed argument. Facts/figures and specs are all well and good, but its personal taste at the end of the day. What I will say, is my wife has a Galaxy Ace and whilst its an ok phone, I personally don't like it. I wouldn't have thought the S2 would be radically different from the ace in day to day use.

EDIT: Oh and to address the battery issue mentioned above. I personally have not had a jot of bother or poor performance from the battery. On the contrary, I charge it up overnight and Throughout the day I am constantly checking the likes of ebay and browsing the net/itunes store etc. My wi-fi and bluetooth are constantly on (bluetooth is left on so that it instantly connects with the cars phone prep). When I go to bed the battery level is never less than half of its power left. So all I can report is that the battery life is good. I can't comment for other 4S users of course.

Originally Posted by itwasntme187

you have a personal hate towards apple... i dont know why this is but its not healthy!

And the fags who own Apple stuff!

Originally Posted by itwasntme187

your post seems very hostile

It's some people's way of trying to prove a point.

I was at a conference recently and the bloke speaking said that some people who lack deep rooted emotional intelligence or a depth of life experiences have a tendency to blur the lines between fact and a personally formed opinion based on either experiences or research, and these people may just shout louder or become aggressive to underpin their position when their point of view is challenged. Their views tend to be incredibly fixed and anyone who doesn't believe what they believe is in fact therefore an idiot / fag / special needs....

God forbid we have a society where we all think differently and we're all comfortable with that. There was a painter/decorator in Germany about 70 years ago who once had the same kind of dictatorial belief structure and from what I read it never really caught on!

A spectrum of opinions constructively discussed sounds like a great ideal to me!

samsung note.

that is all.

Originally Posted by scott b5

samsung note.

that is all.

the OP askd about a phone, not a tablet :P
but that is a huge phone!

Originally Posted by itwasntme187

the OP askd about a phone, not a tablet :P
but that is a huge phone!

Originally Posted by itwasntme187

the OP askd about a phone, not a tablet :P
but that is a huge phone!

true but I would not class it as a tablet. Only a bit bigger than my DHD.

the Apple vs everything is an argument that is old and will never go away I fear.

anyone got the link to iphone vs S2 drop test?

not surprised at all by this test... the S2 weights as much as a feather compared and isnt made of glass

bit daft making a phone out of glass that breaks soon as it hits the floor.

It's a fair shout Scott, and Apple will have taken that route to ensure the premium feel knowing the customer will be hit hard in the pocket when the inevitable happens. Form over function with Apple. Hence why mine has screen protectors front and rear, and a thick rubber case:

apparently the iPhone 5 will be released with the aluminum back cover like the iphone 3Gs had, so that it doesnt have this same crappy broken glass thing again. i agree its so daft to make a phone with glass front and back... but it does look amazing! my first iphone 4 fell out of my pocket while i was running around on my little sisters wedding day and it cracked the front glass... that being said the screen was fine and it still responded to touch guestures.

the replacement iphone i now have still doesnt have a scratch on it... i have had it since July

lol, cool case.

mines been sat in a otter box since day 0.

How protective is it for the glass when dropped?

I wonder how many people buy the iphone for its fashion statmeant over anything else cause that's what it appears to be the main areason, like klappe said (but less agressive), with out doing and research of thought.

but, they happy, so its ok.

I'm leaving now

ash, I'm looking forward to the iphone5, be interesting to see what they do and how they release it now steve is gone.

yh same here, i just think its more rumours about its design and so on but you never know... lets just hope its good... if the future is anything like this then wow!

Fancy an Otterbox myself, look proper solid and the way to go if you don't just mince about in town holding your iPhone out at all the passers by to look scene. Mine gets dragged mountain biking and it's had a few drops but no issues to date. That said I've tempted fate now. The missus '4' has a faulty button on the top (on/off button hs lost it's click).

The other brands have all caught up or surpassed in terms of user friendliness as many of the old PDA smartphones were hard work. I had the Ericsson R380, then the Sony Ericsson P800 / P900 / P910 and they just got worse and worse. Eventually I gave up with SE phones and went Blackberry and didn't like those either. When Apple released an iPhone which was the same as my Touch it was just a perfect switch over and I've never gone back.

otter box is amazing. Mine goes everywhere with me.
I've dropped it, tbrown it bashed it and the phone looks 100%.
wish they made one for my touchpad.

ash, I can't wait to see what the 20 years is like for tech, I just hope I have the money to experiance it fully.

i have kept my iphone in this small slim pouch since i bought it as i dont get any scratches on it

Sena Cases - Designer Leather Cases : iPhone 4 Verizon/Sprint Leather Cases UltraSlim for Apple


i prefer to have the phone outside of a bulky case since it looks more nicer then and its easier to get it into the Brodit car kit.

I have the Iphone 3g, not as useful as a 3gs, or Iphone 4. Or 4s. Or whatever.

I think I will just go for the one that is free, which is the 3gs, or a higher monthly contribution for the 4. The 4s is expensive. They break too easily.

I might as well just get a 3gs off eBay. Save myself an expensive contract. They want 24 months now ffs.

My work BlackBerry lives in an Otterbox, and short of being stupid I'd say it's pretty much unbreakable. If you can live with the bulk of it then I'd say go for it. It's too 'much' for my personal phone though.

I'm surprised BlackBerry's haven't seen more of a mention, it seems to be fashionable to knock them these days, but I guess it all depends what you want of a phone. A BB is a communication tool rather than a media toy, I have a new touchscreen Bold 990 principally because I prefer a physical keyboard to a touchscreen one. I do a lot of typing on it and this is unbeatable. It has all the apps I'm ever going to need and a quick and adaptable OS, the only trade off being the reduced screen size, but the 9900 screen is far from tiny, and a worthwhile trade off for the keyboard for me.

Originally Posted by quattrojames

I'm surprised BlackBerry's haven't seen more of a mention, it seems to be fashionable to knock them these days, but I guess it all depends what you want of a phone. A BB is a communication tool rather than a media toy, I have a new touchscreen Bold 990 principally because I prefer a physical keyboard to a touchscreen one. I do a lot of typing on it and this is unbeatable. It has all the apps I'm ever going to need and a quick and adaptable OS, the only trade off being the reduced screen size, but the 9900 screen is far from tiny, and a worthwhile trade off for the keyboard for me.

I did like the proper keys, but my old BB (curve?) had all sorts of issues with BT car kit and hanging. When it was working it was quite a good phone, it's just the iPhone feels more familiar, but the keyboard is touch to use on the move.

Like everything they've come on massively in recent years. My work one is a Curve and it's a totally different exeperience to this latest Bold!

Always used to have a Blackberry, but the Storm was such an unreliable phone I have no intention of getting another Blackberry.

I hated the Storm, it was really difficult to type on, and it kept freezing whenever I wanted to make a call. You had to take the back cover off and battery pull the stupid mother every time, which would take several minutes. I hated that phone.

So I went to Iphone, and have not suffered with any unreliability since then. Great phone, easy to use, reliable, and pretty cool.

I think the Storm is in many ways responsible for BB's poor reputation these days. I don't like touchscreen phones, but the new Storm (Torch) is as different as night and day I'm told.

Iv always given android a chance, but after owning iPhone, I find it so frustrating using an android phone. Nothing seems as straight forward or quality as it does on the iPhone, might be because I used to using an iPhone and and android phone is alien to me. But from day 1 of using an iPhone/iPod, it was just so easy to use. Theres no denying that they really are a well thought through bit of technology ( lets just forget about the iPhone 4 requiring a condom ). Which reminds me, did they fix that issue with the 4s?

I'm due for an upgrade, but with rumours of the 5 coming out in Easter, il hang back and wait and see.

I love how you all bring in the phone camera into the argument, if you want awsome shots from a camera go get a DSLR. Everyone knows phone cameras are ****e whether they record in 1080P or not.

Quick summary from me about iphone:

*Iphone is crap for phone calls
*You get ripped off by the apps (appart from the tom tom satnav, thats really good, could save your license too!)
*The iPod feature is stupidly good
*Iphone is the easiest to use out there
*You hardly ever hear an iphone owner complain about them

Wait till the 5 comes out and you'll be laughing. 4S, is a big waste of money.

Phone camera's are of course behind SLR's in quality, but they have one MASSIVE advantage for me, I ALWAYS have my phone on me, and with a young family you never know when those moments of magic are going to happen! Better a less quality photo of a special moment than a high quality shot of nothing.

lolz

I don't have a personal hate towards Apple and all users of their products, I think they are a terribly run company with alternative products which tick the odd box for people with special needs (in a computing/arty sense, haha). I think their level of customer (and employee!) care is absolutely terrible, which is also my opinion for the quality of the majority of their products. A personal vendetta? Probably not worth going that far, but after the way I was treated with the return of both of my 5/6 month old Macbook Pro's and Ipod Video I don't think I would ever recommend their products again.

The iPhone is proof that if Apple pull their fingers out of each others bums they can design a market leading product, as long as they have a company like Samsung to build all of the chipsets and processors for their market leading product that is.

Samsung did such a good job of it that despite the lawsuit Apple have against Samsung they are still having them design the 5's processors! Apple using Samsung for next iPhone despite patent battles | Apple - CNET News

However to get all my ranting aside, I am fed up with people who have iPhones saying that everything is inferior and get on their iPhone high horse. Which is simply untrue, it's horses for courses and each product is as good or bad as it's competitor. The market is so tied up at the moment that there isn't a single product that is notably ahead of the competition. For me, as I said the S2 is more than I could have ever wanted in a phone and more, it fits the bill for me perfectly and an iPhone would certainly be of less use to me and wouldn't fit my needs as well. The kick start for this rant is the "get educated" comment and iPhone bumming on something that I spent the best part of a month researching, my search boiled down to the iPhone or the S2. I chose the S2 because for me it is a better product. Simples.

And on a slight side which has annoyed me...

Warren, if you are trying to insinuate that I was "shouting" this argument down because I "lack deep rooted emotional intelligence or a depth of life experiences" then feel free to poke your nose through my previous posts, because I spend at least 83% of my day answering ridiculous questions from people who can't be bothered to use the search feature and generally being a big contributor (in my eyes) to the knowledge base in the 8L section. Which tedious as it gets I quite enjoy helping people out and sharing my experience and intelligence.

Think I will sleep on it. I wish you could test drive a phone for a week before committing to a 24 month contract.

Originally Posted by StateOfPlay

Think I will sleep on it. I wish you could test drive a phone for a week before committing to a 24 month contract.

You can, read up on the consumer credit directive. You can return the phone for a full refund within 14 days.

Originally Posted by 16Klappe

And on a slight side which has annoyed me...

Warren, if you are trying to insinuate that I was "shouting" this argument down because I "lack deep rooted emotional intelligence or a depth of life experiences" then feel free to poke your nose through my previous posts, because I spend at least 83% of my day answering ridiculous questions from people who can't be bothered to use the search feature and generally being a big contributor (in my eyes) to the knowledge base in the 8L section. Which tedious as it gets I quite enjoy helping people out and sharing my experience and intelligence.

Mate, I'm a mod, I spend my days reading endless drivel on here in pretty much every section!

Sometimes I drop statements like this into threads as an awareness mechanism to nudge people who clearly know better. I'll be honest, I don't know you from Adam, so I'll only be able to build a picture of you from the posts I read that you submit, but to me you sounded overtly angry, and i get tired of the predictable and sometimes childish deterioration of responses in these kind of threads. It wasn't aimed at you personally, it's aimed at anyone thinking of turning it into a 'battle' thread. More than happy with people agreeing to disagree, but this was a frustrated mod coming in with a sledgehammer to crack a nut before it inevitably got out of hand (as these threads always do). Nothing personal.

Originally Posted by warren_cox

Mate, I'm a mod, I spend my days reading endless drivel on here in pretty much every section!

And that's just the stuff that Jase posts...

Meh', as long as you know I know better it's all good

Cooling off period? Wicked, never thought of that. So if I upgrade a contract and a new Iphone, I can return the phone within 14 days and get a full refund and get to keep my number to get another phone?

Originally Posted by 16Klappe

And that's just the stuff that Jase posts...

Meh', as long as you know I know better it's all good

Jase & I are kindred spirits! He's just been in the game longer!

I know you're alright really!

Originally Posted by quattrojames

My work BlackBerry lives in an Otterbox, and short of being stupid I'd say it's pretty much unbreakable. If you can live with the bulk of it then I'd say go for it. It's too 'much' for my personal phone though.

I'm surprised BlackBerry's haven't seen more of a mention, it seems to be fashionable to knock them these days, but I guess it all depends what you want of a phone. A BB is a communication tool rather than a media toy, I have a new touchscreen Bold 990 principally because I prefer a physical keyboard to a touchscreen one. I do a lot of typing on it and this is unbeatable. It has all the apps I'm ever going to need and a quick and adaptable OS, the only trade off being the reduced screen size, but the 9900 screen is far from tiny, and a worthwhile trade off for the keyboard for me.

i just got my new BB 9900 and im just setting it up right now. its actually a nice piece of kit compared to my old bb and others that i have used, that being said i wouldnt use it as my main phone. it just doesnt tick all the boxes for me. plus its lack of apps for it just let it down. its a good business phone and communication tool with the bbm!

Originally Posted by smurfworth

I love how you all bring in the phone camera into the argument, if you want awsome shots from a camera go get a DSLR. Everyone knows phone cameras are ****e whether they record in 1080P or not.

Quick summary from me about iphone:

*Iphone is crap for phone calls
*You get ripped off by the apps (appart from the tom tom satnav, thats really good, could save your license too!)
*The iPod feature is stupidly good
*Iphone is the easiest to use out there
*You hardly ever hear an iphone owner complain about them

Wait till the 5 comes out and you'll be laughing. 4S, is a big waste of money.

one of the main reasons i fell for the iPhone was that there is literally "an app for that!" i mean nearly anything you think of there is an app for! i got tired of seeing signs with download this app onto your iphone and not having the damned phone so i wasnt able to download it. now that i have it its wicked!
as for the ripped off part i have the phone jailbroken with some "tweaks" that allows me to get all apps for free including in-app purchases

why do you say that its crap for phone calls?

Originally Posted by itwasntme187

why do you say that its crap for phone calls?

I went from a Nokia N95 8GB(The last good phone Nokia made, and one of 5 Nokia's I've had in a row!) to an iphone4, it's just painstakingly annoying to make a call with an iphone. You need to press the home button to activate screen, swipe the screen, then input a passcode before you can even get to the make a call function. Nokia N95 was push the screen upwards and press the dial button to list your last calls, I could do it blindfolded!

Originally Posted by StateOfPlay

Cooling off period? Wicked, never thought of that. So if I upgrade a contract and a new Iphone, I can return the phone within 14 days and get a full refund and get to keep my number to get another phone?

yep and you get this on any phone you get on an upgrade, my mum once done this 3 times until she found the phone she wanted!

Originally Posted by StateOfPlay

Cooling off period? Wicked, never thought of that. So if I upgrade a contract and a new Iphone, I can return the phone within 14 days and get a full refund and get to keep my number to get another phone?

Check with the service provider, but I was offered this option with 02 when I took out my new contract with a £25 repackaging and remarketing fee on the phone if it was returned. I sell cars all day and am regulated by the FSA, I have to do monthly FSA assessments to make sure my knowledge is up to date, I'm 99% sure that with any financial contract or personal plan there is a 14 day minimum "cooling off" period with any goods or services sold however there may be reasonable fees incurred. But the fees MUST be openly disclosed before contracts are signed. It's certainly the case with cars though, only the other week we had a guy buy an S-Max, drive it to Scotland on holiday and then return it ten days later and not have to pay a penny!