JMB RetrofitsAH Fabrications
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  1. #1
    StephaneS's Avatar
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    Help me for my project - Track car

    Right,

    As most of you know I am selling my car and going back to France where I'll have space and time (hopefully).
    You would also have noticed that I dont know much about handling or engine's tuning and I admit that I am not a very good driver neither BUT i want to change all that with a new project: building a car that would give me thrills everytime and that I should not worry too much about (hence the budget - see below).

    Thus I am torn betwen two choices:
    Find a driver's orientated car, old and cheap (R5 Turbo2, lancia HF integrale, Evo V...) and modify it heavily (a 2cv beating the hell of a porsche or ferrari appeals to me) or get a kit car.
    For the existing car, I want it to stay as much stock as posible on the outside
    For the kit car, only a seven's hybrid, an ultima or a 427 would do. I have driven a caterham and will never forget the fun I had. The cobra is for the best looking car ever and... well the ultima is the ultima 'nuf said.

    Budget is the price of my current drive about 22k.
    Obviously since the project will take a long time the budget will evolve/increase.
    car will have to be road legal, LHD and I would like a V6 or V8.

    To help me I need some basic imput from you guys who's got experience:
    1- how experienced do you need to be to get into that kind of project.
    2- Is the budget realistic
    3- shall the car be 4WD or RWD
    4- how long shall it take
    if I go for a kit car:
    5- which company offers the best chassis for handling
    6- how versatile are the chassis on offer. ie if you choose a chassis do you need to have sp[ecific breaks and suspension?
    if I go for modifying an existing car
    7- what car would offer the most possibilities of tuning?
    8- what car has the best chassis for a V8?

    I'll stop there, eventhough I have tones of questions.
    Any imput welcome
    Thanks [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif[/img]

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  3. #2
    jojo's Avatar
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    Re: Help me for my project - Track car

    Hey Steph, looks like the trip to Autosport International has converted you lol. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif[/img]

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    Re: Help me for my project - Track car

    for tuning possibilitys id go for a jap car..
    but personally i'd look at the G60 engines and as such..

    or find a big block and get a turbo put on it...

    as for able to be able to do this yourself.. you have the time so learn about it.. you cant really do anything wrong.. its a case of it working or not working.. trial and error.. no1's perfect and so do something new but make sure its solid.. a solid block would last u a life time and take a thrashing as much as u can give it..

  5. #4
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    Re: Help me for my project - Track car

    I suspect you after more of a wolf in sheeps clothing than a finely balanced dtripped out track car. Why not go the lupoGTI s3 lump way with an MTM big turbo kit? Now thats gotta shift, leave it looking as standard as possible, now that would be fun.


  6. #5
    DavidR's Avatar
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    Re: Help me for my project - Track car

    Guys, you have got it all wrong! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

    You don't need monumental power for a track car, and you certainly don't need FWD...

    Any decent track car is all about handling, balance and brakes. It would be easy and cheap (<300) to get my 200 up to 300bhp, but it would ruin the car IMO as the other limitations will be more evident.

    If you sort the handling, have a nicely balanced car with the correct power to handling, you'll have loads more fun than hoofing a hugely over powered engine into an ill handling donor vehicle.

    The 200 causes some very raised eyebrows at trackdays due to its lap times. It's funny watching an impreza struggle to pass on thr straights and then hold it up in the corners..

    I find the other thing is cost. You buy something expensive, you drive it with more respect. The 200 is relatively cheap, therefore it gets driven 10/10ths and any breakages are cheap.

  7. #6
    imported_Yaseen
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    Re: Help me for my project - Track car

    Without taking any of the factors given in consideration, why not a Lotus Elise or similar? If easily available in France

    This suggestion is based on the fact my local chip shop owner races them and prefers it to his daily drive of a Boxter S

  8. #7
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    Re: Help me for my project - Track car

    Kit cars are fickle things. Having built 2 I know that they need to be built very well for them to get anywhere near the quality of a production car. Build one badly and it will stick out like a sore thumb. A big disadvantge I can see is you buying an English made kit car and then living in France. You are a long way from having any factory support which so many builders find very useful.

    As David R has been saying you don't need an expensive (or V6/V8) car to be a fun track day car. If you really want V6 how about a Clio V6? I run a Mk2 Escort in full Group 4 rally trim. These are fanastic cars to drive but unlike the Nissan, parts are getting a bit more expensive as they get rarer should you bend it. There are a few Mk2 Escorts with Cosworth turbo engines and these would give you more than enough power to play with on the track.

    Hope this gives you a few more ideas.

    John

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    Re: Help me for my project - Track car

    What about a corvette? The Z06 is seriously fast and can be modded to ridiculous power. Not sure if you'll find one for 22k though. A standard C5 will still do the business.

  10. #9
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    Re: Help me for my project - Track car

    thanks guys!
    just to clarify:
    i dont need a wolf in sheep clothing. what I meant was that i wont be buying stuff to make it look good or like something it isn't. and that's only if it is on an existing car. for a kit car i have to say that a 427 would look great...
    jojo i was converted long before... I just will have the opportunity to do some real business now

    for the kit car i realise that it will be a pain as soon as i get a problem to get it sorted from the factory, but I've got a jocker: my dad. he used to be a mechanic... anyway that one very good point. another one is to get it approved by the local authorities in France. I hear it's quite a pain...
    John, for the kit car, what do you mean by "it needs to be very well made". how well and for what purpose. I mean i dont want to have to rebuild it every 3000miles? minor stuff ok at the beginning but then after 10000miles it should run ok. and does not also apply to modifying a car or is there a real difference?

    David, John, when you say that i dont need a big block to have a fun car, you basically mean a 4 cyl with or without a turbo right?
    do you say so because of the weight? if so does anyone has any numbers for me to compare?

    also no-one answered on the main questions: how long, how much and RWD or 4WD

    finally can anyone explain me what makes a great chassis

    thanks again

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    Re: Help me for my project - Track car

    [ QUOTE ]
    Yaseen said:
    Without taking any of the factors given in consideration, why not a Lotus Elise or similar? If easily available in France

    This suggestion is based on the fact my local chip shop owner races them and prefers it to his daily drive of a Boxter S

    [/ QUOTE ]
    I was looking inot the lotus and the vauxhall but am now more inclined into something to mod as i want it. i am not sure there much about on these

  12. #11
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    Re: Help me for my project - Track car

    [ QUOTE ]
    richy said:
    a solid block would last u a life time and take a thrashing as much as u can give it..

    [/ QUOTE ]
    thanks
    what kind/brand of engine? are the chevy V8 any good? Rover V8?
    what about V6?
    sorry with the questions but i dont want to start on the wrong engine...

  13. #12
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    Re: Help me for my project - Track car

    [ QUOTE ]
    S3_Driver said:
    What about a corvette? The Z06 is seriously fast and can be modded to ridiculous power. Not sure if you'll find one for 22k though. A standard C5 will still do the business.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    maybe one from the 70's as I like their shape but never having driven one and only heard bad handling asociated with them...

  14. #13
    dummi's Avatar
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    Re: Help me for my project - Track car

    did you watch topgear a few weeks back, that 'Ariel' he reviewed as one of the best cars he'd driven

    small car produced in south england 0-60 was 2.9 secs, phenominal handling and weight

    i think it was less than 20k, can't remember

    i do remember clarksons face pealing away as he accelerated,

    i know that would be on my shopping list if i had 20k burning a whole in my pocket,

    i think this should be on topgears website

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    Re: Help me for my project - Track car

    [ QUOTE ]
    dummi said:
    did you watch topgear a few weeks back, that 'Ariel' he reviewed as one of the best cars he'd driven

    small car produced in south england 0-60 was 2.9 secs, phenominal handling and weight

    i think it was less than 20k, can't remember

    i do remember clarksons face pealing away as he accelerated,

    i know that would be on my shopping list if i had 20k burning a whole in my pocket,

    i think this should be on topgears website

    [/ QUOTE ]


    Civic Type R engine Super Charged [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/goofy.gif[/img]

  16. #15
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    Re: Help me for my project - Track car

    [ QUOTE ]
    David R said:
    You don't need monumental power for a track car, and you certainly don't need FWD...


    [/ QUOTE ]

    I agree with not needing massive power...

    But discounting FWD? Really!

    A decent Clio will be very quick...or my choice would be an Interga Type-R...absolutely bulletproof, handles amazingly out of the box, great brakes, drifts like a RWD car...oh, and it's FWD!
    I think you'd find it consistantly sticks in faster lap times than your 200...


    [ QUOTE ]

    Any decent track car is all about handling, balance and brakes. It would be easy and cheap (<300)


    [/ QUOTE ]

    *Cough, cough*
    Integra Type-R?

    [ QUOTE ]

    If you sort the handling, have a nicely balanced car with the correct power to handling, you'll have loads more fun than hoofing a hugely over powered engine into an ill handling donor vehicle.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Or just buy one of the best handling cars ever produced...and just drive the hell out of it.
    The brakes won't fade...it won't break...it's a Honda!

    You can pick up a decent ITR for well under 10K...add some ARBs, more aggressive brake pads, SS lines and go play...

  17. #16
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    Re: Help me for my project - Track car

    [ QUOTE ]
    David R said:

    Yes, discount FWD. An ITR is a fine handling track tool, but no FWD or 4WD car that I have driven or passengered in on track can match the entertainment of RWD.

    With RWD there is more to do, a bigger scope to be accurate or lairy and the drifting is more accessible, controllable and predictable at slower speeds.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    I suggest you find an ITR to drive...
    You will then revise your opinion.

  18. #17
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    Re: Help me for my project - Track car

    all right i've made up my mind on some stuff:
    it will be RWD and lightweight so no big cars like the corvette and no ITR
    I have to admit that the ariel is pretty good and/but it's a turnkey type of cars. it's a honda engine and the chassis seams great. budget would not allow though. it's from 19k + VAT. I'll keep it in mind.

    Just need to figure out how much mods you can do in France without having to do a French SVA. anyone knows?

    Can anyone explain me what a donor car means exactly. does that mean that you get all the paperwork and some parts from an existing car and then "modify it" (ie build a brand new car around the few parts you've kept)? if so can this be imported to France without SVA?


    thanks again

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    Re: Help me for my project - Track car

    thanks CJ,

    for the moment I am down to a few cars:
    turnkey: ariel atom, caterham, ultima, Elise or VX turbo
    kit car: 427 replica only (been put off by John and French administration but the 427 is so beautiful!)
    Modded car: ??? This where I need help please: has to be RWD with a great chassis as a base and a reliable motor (Jap seems good)
    so far Nissan 200SX, what else?

  20. #19
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    Re: Help me for my project - Track car

    [ QUOTE ]
    This where I need help please: has to be RWD with a great chassis as a base and a reliable motor (Jap seems good)
    so far Nissan 200SX, what else?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Anything else! 200SX' are Hideous!

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    Re: Help me for my project - Track car

    Why dont you try and get your mits on a cheap R34 skyline....NICE!!!!

  22. #21
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    Re: Help me for my project - Track car

    they're old but not hideous!

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    Re: Help me for my project - Track car

    Come one a Skyline is a great car for modifying RWD and you can choose from R32 33 or GTR34 Vspec2(MMMMM). These cars will give you endless fun on the track and you can mod all day long...just an idea you say they are old but whats a nissan 200sx???

  24. #23
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    Re: Help me for my project - Track car

    he was reffering to the 200 i think. I ill just repeat the statement (a la Partridge)... they are hideous! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

  25. #24
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    Re: Help me for my project - Track car

    sorry was refering to the nissan
    i'll put the skyline on a par with the nissan as a possibility
    we start getting somewhere now

  26. #25
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    Re: Help me for my project - Track car

    [ QUOTE ]
    nervus said:
    Anything else! 200SX' are Hideous!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The aesthetics are of no importance on a track car surely?

    Personally I think the 996 is a foul looking car, but having driven Glen's C4S I would have one in a moment - the driving experience is superb!

    Other options...

    Porsche 944 S2 or Turbo?
    Built and used Caterfield?
    BMW M Coupe / Roadster
    Original M3
    Honda S2000
    Lotus Elise / Exige
    VX220
    and finally ex race cars. Formula ford / 1st etc etc are all cheap, fun and simple to work on.

    All good drivers cars, all RWD and at varying costs. I would have gone for a Porsche 944 if I hadn't bought the Nissan.

    I guess it's all relative. You can pick up an S13 200 for 1000, spend 1000 on the correct bits and maintainance and have a 2k car thats just as much or much more fun that cars costing easily 10 times the amount.

    My advice again, if this is your 1st track project, buy cheap, properly and have a play. Find out what you want from the car (you may prefer FWD or 4WD) but to spend a fortune on a car you can't get on with is a mistake.

  27. #26
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    Re: Help me for my project - Track car

    [ QUOTE ]
    CJ B6 2.0 said:
    How about a Fiat Coupe 20v Turbo another rapid beast that can be heavily modded!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Heavily modified - into scrap metal usually.

    Ill handling, underbraked, tempramental and costly. The only good thing about the Fiat was the 5 cylinder engine, when it worked...

    You would pay highly to buy, run and make the thing even close to fun on track.

    Better search for cars that work "out of the box"

  28. #27
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    Re: Help me for my project - Track car

    Just saying that as a friend of mine has one and upgraded brakes with an upgraded t66 turbo or something and he has never had any problems with it. Been in it and it is very fast hes been up to 160 or the straight and taken corners like it was on rails at speed too. Anyways it was only a suggestion everyone is different.

  29. #28
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    Re: Help me for my project - Track car

    [ QUOTE ]
    David R said:
    [ QUOTE ]
    StephV6 said:which one's got the best chassis?


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Can I suggest you take a fornight off work and come up to Scotland to discuss that one with me and several petrol head mates?

    I cannot guarantee that we will agree, in fact I can be assured that we'll be no further forward in the debate after the fortnight has elapsed...

    [/ QUOTE ]
    well I've got plenty of time in my hand as I dont have job anymore... do you have a spare bedroom by any chance? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

    [ QUOTE ]
    David R said:
    There is no correct answer, it kind of suits your driving style. In general the Elise / VX (non turbo) and most Caterfields (or Westhams) are all about cornering and not so much straight line speed. In general a light car will be pointy, grippy and direct, and wuick to adjust whereas the heavier cars react slightly more slowly (and therefore you lose control slightly more slowly)


    [/ QUOTE ]
    then I am back to my previous question: is it not possible to get one of those lightweight cars with a small block in it? or are thoe engines way too heavy and if so how much?

    [ QUOTE ]
    David R said:
    It's a question I cannot answer for you - you should try them out for yourself.


    [/ QUOTE ]
    would love to' do you know any comany that would supply that kind of service?

    [ QUOTE ]
    David R said:
    I forgot to mention perhaps the ultimate track car (having now noticed your budget) - Porsche 968 Clubsport....

    [/ QUOTE ]
    I know one LHD for sale at 13k. and it's yellow!!

  30. #29
    DavidR's Avatar
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    Re: Help me for my project - Track car

    I've 3 spare bedrooms

    I don't know of a track car loan company - I tend to blag rides / drives at local trackdays

    Yellow is the best colour for a 968 CS - price is good too AND they drive on the right hand side of tracks in France [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

    Sorted!

  31. #30
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    Re: Help me for my project - Track car

    [ QUOTE ]
    David R said:
    I don't know of a track car loan company - I tend to blag rides / drives at local trackdays


    [/ QUOTE ]
    I actually know one but it's so damn expensive basically you pay 350 to join and then 1.7k for the whole year when you get points. With those points you can then rent track cars (some are road legal) and everything is included (insurance, consummables...)
    but hey I just checked and they have the ariel atom, the 968 CS, the exige, M3's, evo's...
    maybe it's worth it. i dont know
    http://www.track-sense.com/index.htm

    [ QUOTE ]
    David R said:
    Yellow is the best colour for a 968 CS - price is good too.
    Sorted!

    [/ QUOTE ]
    you reckon? I am not that easily convinced but I admit lots of today's info helped me

  32. #31
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    Re: Help me for my project - Track car

    Hi, I have a Caterham with a 2 litre Zetec engine with about 200bhp which is great fun (stands me at about 15k) and one of the quickest cars out on the track. However being the quickest is not always the most fun I have seen much slower cars out on trackdays being driven by very capable people and obviously enjoying themselves.

    The Caterham is a great track car for reasons other than speed as being so light they are not as hard on tyres/brakes etc etc making them a relayively economical option. Further more that are from the outset a track orientated car. The other benefit over many 'saloon' cars is that once you turn them into a track call their vlaue is reduced despite the hige expenditure, not the case with a 7.

    There are quite a few 7's in France and no-one has and trouble with parts. If you are seriously considering a 7 in France suggest you post on the Seven club site which is a brilliant forum http://www.lotus7club.co.uk. You will be pleasantly suprised with the response you will receive.

  33. #32
    StephaneS's Avatar
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    Re: Help me for my project - Track car

    Thanks Picket, I'll have a look

  34. #33
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    Re: Help me for my project - Track car

    Right I have now sold my car and got just over 20k to play with
    I will try and test drive a porsche this week and see how it goes
    I have to admit that the idea of an old fast RWD car is growing rapidly

 

 

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