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    Crash - who's fault is it???

    A mate of mine has recently been involved in a minor car accident. He was driving along a main road which had a buslane to the left. He was driving in the normal right hand lane.
    He indicated to turn left to enter a turning on his left. At this point the bus lane ended and then started again just after the left turn. Just as he turned in and moved to the left another car came speeding up the bus lane (it was during the permitted hours of use) and they collided.

    Just wondering who is at fault in this accident, from an insurance perspective??

    Bear in mind that the bus lane had only started about 5-10 meters before the left turning and before that it was single lane traffic.
    He says he checked his mirror a few seconds before turning and there were no cars coming. This other person must've been a couple of cars back and when the bus lane started they accelerated hard and undertook everyone who had moved across into the normal right hand lane.

    Here is a drawing to show what happened:



    And here is an actual photo taken from just past the turning (my mate's car is the white arrow, and the other person is the yellow arrow)...


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    He is at fault for not checking his mirrors.

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    they will put your mate at fault

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    He was leaving his lane and entering another lane.
    His fault for not checking the lane is clear before he enters.
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    Yeah, I find it hard to get away from this fact too. There's no question that the other driver was driving like a dick and was speeding, and was really the one who caused the accident, but I can imagine the insurance company will say that he still should've seen them in his mirror. If he'd have checked them a second later than he did he probably would've seen them.

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    if your friend was intending to turn left he should not have moved out and instead kept the other car behind
    stevie

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    Quote Originally Posted by Axios View Post
    He was leaving his lane and entering another lane.
    His fault for not checking the lane is clear before he enters.
    Thing is, if you look at the photo he's not actually leaving his lane. At that point there is only one lane, which is the lane he is in. The bus lane ends, so in a way it's the other person who is leaving their lane (the bus lane).

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    Id be interested in peoples views on this.

    Id say any type of undertaking is illegal.

    I also learnt that you should use bus lanes where permitted, however when unsure about the times of the bus lane to stay out. I would side with your mate, but then i do use bus lanes a lot and get annoyed when people don't.

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    if its after hours why didnt your mate go in the bus lane if hes turning left. Seems like a silly thing to do. Almost as if your mate is trying to hold up traffic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bredhurststeve View Post
    if your friend was intending to turn left he should not have moved out and instead kept the other car behind
    He mentioned that himself, but said that it was automatic to move across and not enter the bus lane. Said he didn't really know at the time whether or not it was inside the 'allowed hours'.

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    Regardless of who's fault it is, these bus lanes (and cycle lanes) which just suddenly stop are so frustrating!!! I cycle home from work, and in the 3 mile journey it generally has a cycle lane. However, it must stop and start about 20 times, and each time i'm always cringing as to what will happen. Cars park in them and the worst is drivers who just open their doors into them.

    It seems a shame that it's your mates fault when there was an obvious tool who was undertaking everyone.

    let us know how he gets on mate.


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    Quote Originally Posted by crazy88 View Post
    Regardless of who's fault it is, these bus lanes (and cycle lanes) which just suddenly stop are so frustrating!!! I cycle home from work, and in the 3 mile journey it generally has a cycle lane. However, it must stop and start about 20 times, and each time i'm always cringing as to what will happen. Cars park in them and the worst is drivers who just open their doors into them.

    It seems a shame that it's your mates fault when there was an obvious tool who was undertaking everyone.

    let us know how he gets on mate.
    tbh if he argues it , he may get 50/50 split.

    I agree bus lanes are a terrible idea .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nutkin View Post
    if its after hours why didnt your mate go in the bus lane if hes turning left. Seems like a silly thing to do. Almost as if your mate is trying to hold up traffic.
    I dount that happened, lol. Surely nobody drives along thinking it's a good idea to hold up traffic.


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    Quote Originally Posted by crazy88 View Post
    I dount that happened, lol. Surely nobody drives along thinking it's a good idea to hold up traffic.

    depends if the person behind me is tailgating, I love to slow down when that happens. Jamming on brakes isn't the way at all, but slowing down to a snails pace gets the hint accross nciely and reduces chances of accidents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aythreee View Post
    Thing is, if you look at the photo he's not actually leaving his lane. At that point there is only one lane, which is the lane he is in. The bus lane ends, so in a way it's the other person who is leaving their lane (the bus lane).
    The images are blocked at work. I'm having to go by your description. (checking on my phone now)

    He could argue that fact and quote the highway code in his favour.

    Is there any thing to prove the other guy was going to fast? Skid marks?
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazy88 View Post
    I dount that happened, lol. Surely nobody drives along thinking it's a good idea to hold up traffic.
    Haha, you're right, he wasn't trying to hold up traffic. Just as mentioned... he wasn't aware of the exact times he could use the bus lane so just stayed out it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nutkin View Post
    tbh if he argues it , he may get 50/50 split.
    I think this is the best he can see coming out of this. I tend to agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nutkin View Post
    depends if the person behind me is tailgating, I love to slow down when that happens. Jamming on brakes isn't the way at all, but slowing down to a snails pace gets the hint accross nciely and reduces chances of accidents.
    That is a fair point, hadn't thought of that. But other than that...why would someone slow down traffic?

    Some tit in a Ford Cougar was tailgaiting me last night and doing my nut in. I was driving down a very steep, thin, cobbled street at almost freezing temperature and I could barely see his headlights he was so close.

    The more I look at that picture of the junction the more stupid i realise it is. Why couldn't they just start the bus lane 20metres later and avoid the awkward junction bit? Road planners really do make it complicated sometimes.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Axios View Post
    Is there any thing to prove the other guy was going to fast? Skid marks?
    Nah, no skid marks, no witnesses, no nothing. Just a dent in the other person's front wing and a scrape on my mate's bumper.

    The woman who was driving got out of the car with her boyfriend and started giving my mate some serious abuse, calling him a w*nker etc. My mate had his 4 year old son in the car too.
    He's now tempted to get his car repaired quickly and deny the accident ever happened. They didn't take any of his details at the scene, only took his reg number and drove off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazy88 View Post
    The more I look at that picture of the junction the more stupid i realise it is. Why couldn't they just start the bus lane 20metres later and avoid the awkward junction bit? Road planners really do make it complicated sometimes.
    This is so true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aythreee View Post
    ....The woman who was driving got out of the car with her boyfriend and started giving my mate some serious abuse, calling him a w*nker etc. My mate had his 4 year old son in the car too.
    This is what scares me about my wife driving out and about with our little girl. People who get all aggressive rather than just talking about it. Luckily when she crashed last year the lady she drove into was really nice and ended up driving the mrs and my little girl home.


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    Just seen the pics.
    Thats a stupid tiny bloody bus lane.

    Argue it and aim for 50%50.

    Going by your description and the pics, it does seem like the other guy was just impatiant and wanted to cut the traffic off.

    any witnesses?
    police called?

    EDIT:=- Just seen post #18.

    Yeah, fix it and tell em to do one or leave it and phone the police and say he was involed in a hit and semi-run.
    he stopped to talk about what happened, the other people got all abusive and drove off. since he had his son in the car he was unsure what to do. so he waited till he got home and then phoned them.
    Last edited by ScottD3; 19th January 2011 at 14:02.
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    tbh, unless the other bloke was doing about 900mph your mate must have been aware of him behind, and should have been aware that he had now "disappeared" just before he made the turn.

    I'd also suggest that he didnt signal at all or until the last minute. That bus lane is so short, he should have been signalling way before it anyway, which would have most likely stopped the idiot in the other car blasting up the inside when he moved over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aragorn View Post
    tbh, unless the other bloke was doing about 900mph your mate must have been aware of him behind, and should have been aware that he had now "disappeared" just before he made the turn.

    I'd also suggest that he didnt signal at all or until the last minute. That bus lane is so short, he should have been signalling way before it anyway, which would have most likely stopped the idiot in the other car blasting up the inside when he moved over.
    I doubt it. but id have to ask with the length of that bus lane and where the junction is , id probably indicating left before the bus lane started for the junction. that bus lane is only 2 car lenths long at most, although the angle of google maps makes it seem longer.

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    Thats what i meant. Had your mate signalled properly, he'd have started indicating left before the island slightly further down the road. The roads perfectly streight, so you'd be fully aware of any cars behind, and the car approaching would see your left indicator come on before hed even started moving over.

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    50/50 most likely fella your mate will be held 50% at fault for not checking his mirror and turning into a junction when unsafe to and the other party for driving in the bus lane when close to a junction.
    Dealt with a similar case last year but no bus lane and party 1 was over taking close to a junction and party 2 was slowing down and signaling to turn right. Both vehicle collided when party 2 turned right.
    Went to court and was settled 50/50. Party 1 for overtaking when unsafe to by a junction, party 2 for not checking mirrors before turning. Insurers decide liability from cases that have been to court
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axios View Post
    Yeah, fix it and tell em to do one or leave it and phone the police and say he was involed in a hit and semi-run.
    he stopped to talk about what happened, the other people got all abusive and drove off. since he had his son in the car he was unsure what to do. so he waited till he got home and then phoned them.
    The other people have now reported it to their insurance company as my mate has just received a message from his insurance company asking him to contact them regarding a claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by aragorn View Post
    tbh, unless the other bloke was doing about 900mph your mate must have been aware of him behind, and should have been aware that he had now "disappeared" just before he made the turn.
    The other car was never directly behind my mate. They were at least the second car back.

    Quote Originally Posted by aragorn View Post
    I'd also suggest that he didnt signal at all or until the last minute. That bus lane is so short, he should have been signalling way before it anyway, which would have most likely stopped the idiot in the other car blasting up the inside when he moved over.
    Why would you suggest he didn't signal??? He did signal, and according to him it was just before (or at the beginning of the) bus lane.

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    Quote Originally Posted by benskin07 View Post
    50/50 most likely fella your mate will be held 50% at fault for not checking his mirror and turning into a junction when unsafe to and the other party for driving in the bus lane when close to a junction.
    Dealt with a similar case last year but no bus lane and party 1 was over taking close to a junction and party 2 was slowing down and signaling to turn right. Both vehicle collided when party 2 turned right.
    Went to court and was settled 50/50. Party 1 for overtaking when unsafe to by a junction, party 2 for not checking mirrors before turning. Insurers decide liability from cases that have been to court
    Was party 1 approaching from the opposite direction to party 2?? Or were they trying to overtake party 2??

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    Quote Originally Posted by aythreee View Post
    Was party 1 approaching from the opposite direction to party 2?? Or were they trying to overtake party 2??
    Trying to over take party 2 fella. Was three cars behide party 2 when party 1 over took single lanes on both sides



    Edit: may have been asked any witnesses or CCTV footage by there?
    Last edited by Ash B; 19th January 2011 at 14:32.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aragorn View Post
    Thats what i meant. Had your mate signalled properly, he'd have started indicating left before the island slightly further down the road. The roads perfectly streight, so you'd be fully aware of any cars behind, and the car approaching would see your left indicator come on before hed even started moving over.
    He did signal properly, and could not have signalled any early (or at the island you have mentioned). It's not clear from the photo but at the beginning of the bus lane there is another left turning, so if he had signalled any earlier than he did it would've looked like he was signalling to turn into the turning before the one he wanted to enter.

    Quote Originally Posted by benskin07 View Post
    Trying to over take party 2 fella. Was three cars behide party 2 when party 1 over took single lanes on both sides
    Wow. I'm surprised that party 2 got blamed at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aythreee View Post
    He did signal properly, and could not have signalled any early (or at the island you have mentioned). It's not clear from the photo but at the beginning of the bus lane there is another left turning, so if he had signalled any earlier than he did it would've looked like he was signalling to turn into the turning before the one he wanted to enter.

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    You really are good with MS Paint aren't you!


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    lol. My arrows could do with a little work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by benskin07 View Post
    Edit: may have been asked any witnesses or CCTV footage by there?
    Neither mate. Just their word against his.

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    There isn't much road between the Island and the junction, maybe 5-6 car lengths, it strikes me as, if the other car was 2 cars back or more, he must of been giving it a whole sack full of beans to get into a position to hit your friend. It looks like a 30 mph zone, is it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dane View Post
    There isn't much road between the Island and the junction, maybe 5-6 car lengths, it strikes me as, if the other car was 2 cars back or more, he must of been giving it a whole sack full of beans to get into a position to hit your friend. It looks like a 30 mph zone, is it?
    Yeah, its a 30 zone. My mate reckons they must've been accelerating and approaching 40.

    The other person was definitely driving like a pleb on speed, but all these other things come into play... i.e. mirrors etc.

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    Surely blame all hinges on whether the bus lane was clear at the point when your mate started his turn?
    If it was and the other bloke entered the lane and accelerated up it without checking it was clear then I'd have said it was his fault?

    Obviously, if he entered the bus lane before your mate started his turn then he should have checked his mirrors more closely.
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    I would say, at least to the letter of the law, the logic of not knowing whether it was a bus lane or not wouldn't hold up well - as a driver you should be aware of the timing of these lanes, just as you should be aware of the speed limit wherever you are driving.

    Potentially, the idiot in the bus lane wasn't undertaking, but just moving freely at the speed that the lane traffic (i.e. none) would allow. At least this is what they would say.

    The root cause of this accident is the stupid bus lane design, of putting it there just before the junction. I heard that councils get a certain amount of money dependent on how many miles of lane they have, so they look to shoehorn it in anyway they can. That could just be urban myth though.

    Your mate isn't going to get it as not his fault. However, I would assume (I've never been through the process, thankfully) that there is nothing to be lost by at least putting it to his insurance company that the other driver was being a tool. They will then assess whether or not to contest it, and I would guess if they had a reasonable chance of reducing their payout they would work for it. If there were no injuries and it's relatively minor repair work, maybe the company won't bother putting the resource on it as it may cost them more to try to reduce the % than the overall cost of the work.

    My 2 cents, anyway

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    Get your mate's car fixed and forget about it.

    No CCTV, no witnesses, no proof. You could say that the accident happened, and then the other party went driving around looking for a car the same colour, found your mate's and then took the plate to make a false accusation. That would also explain why they only had the plate (despite it being their own stupidity).

    That would be the VERY least I would be doing if someone started verbally abusing me in front of my child. And I mean the VERY least.

    Job done. F**k em.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keeno View Post
    Surely blame all hinges on whether the bus lane was clear at the point when your mate started his turn?
    If it was and the other bloke entered the lane and accelerated up it without checking it was clear then I'd have said it was his fault?

    Obviously, if he entered the bus lane before your mate started his turn then he should have checked his mirrors more closely.
    My mate says that the bus lane was clear at the point he started his turn, which was just after he checked his mirror.

    As my mate started his turn its not like the other car was already there and he turned into it. He started his turn and then the other car came flying along and hit my mate's car. If that makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geordie Mike View Post
    I would say, at least to the letter of the law, the logic of not knowing whether it was a bus lane or not wouldn't hold up well - as a driver you should be aware of the timing of these lanes, just as you should be aware of the speed limit wherever you are driving.

    Potentially, the idiot in the bus lane wasn't undertaking, but just moving freely at the speed that the lane traffic (i.e. none) would allow. At least this is what they would say.

    The root cause of this accident is the stupid bus lane design, of putting it there just before the junction. I heard that councils get a certain amount of money dependent on how many miles of lane they have, so they look to shoehorn it in anyway they can. That could just be urban myth though.

    Your mate isn't going to get it as not his fault. However, I would assume (I've never been through the process, thankfully) that there is nothing to be lost by at least putting it to his insurance company that the other driver was being a tool. They will then assess whether or not to contest it, and I would guess if they had a reasonable chance of reducing their payout they would work for it. If there were no injuries and it's relatively minor repair work, maybe the company won't bother putting the resource on it as it may cost them more to try to reduce the % than the overall cost of the work.

    My 2 cents, anyway
    Can't disagree with anything you've written there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Welly View Post
    Get your mate's car fixed and forget about it.

    No CCTV, no witnesses, no proof. You could say that the accident happened, and then the other party went driving around looking for a car the same colour, found your mate's and then took the plate to make a false accusation. That would also explain why they only had the plate (despite it being their own stupidity).

    That would be the VERY least I would be doing if someone started verbally abusing me in front of my child. And I mean the VERY least.

    Job done. F**k em.
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