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View Poll Results: Should the unemployed be forced to work for free?

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Thread: The Unemployed

  1. #1
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    Question The Unemployed

    What do you think about the proposals to force unemployed people to do "voluntary" work, such as litter picking and gardening, or face having their benefits stopped?

    Under the proposed scheme long-term unemployed will be forced to take part in a 30 hour per week community service type job for four weeks with no extra pay. If they refuse to take the placement then their weekly jobseekers allowance will be stopped for a minimum of three months.

    Is this right or wrong, or good or bad?

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    well, well, is it one small step closer to communism that the elite really are pushing for in there agenda for there "New World Order" plan?
    is it a way of getting humans to get used to being told what to do?
    if the jobs was there would the folk take them?

    There are free loaders out there who don't want to work and are happy doing nothing with there time on this earth, this program could just suit them to the T, But for the folk who are out there looking for work everyday, this would take away there sense of pride and take away there time looking for a real job, so its a double edged sward if you ask me,

    All i can say is it is hard out there right now and god bless them poor folks who are out there ponding the streets looking to get on in life and want a job,

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    A good idea to make the scroungers do a bit.

    But the genuine people have to be excused (Imagine a qualified engineer brushing the streets) Very difficult to administer properly.

    Look at there history if they have not worked for 5 years get them doing a bit.

    If they have held a responsible job in the last 2 years leave em alone. they are not responsible for the drop bo**ock by the lowlife banks
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    I'm all for it but agree with the points above. Target the long term scroungers first. It would also be beneficial if the work being performed could be something the person learns a trade in - repairing a road for example.

    On a similar note I was on a bus the other day and sat behind two charvers. Their conversation was along the lines of how they had been sentenced to 500 (yes 500) community service hours (must have been a serious crime) and they were boasting how they only did 80 hours.

    The foreman (or whoever 'looks' after them) told them not to bother coming back.

    If this 'help in the community' scheme is to work they better find a way of monitoring it.

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    I'm all for it, I don't believe anybody should be out of work for that length of time, there are plenty of jobs out there it's just that some people have the "why should I work in a supermarket" attitude or some (and I know one) that feel they shouldn't have to work at all!! Makes me sick!

    When my dad lost his job (he was a senior partner in an architects practice) in the last recession, back when I was a kid, he went out and did anything he possibly could to make ends meet, painting and decorating mainly, he labelled himself as being "self-unemployed" and was never too proud to try his hand at anything to keep his family fed and under a roof, I'm proud of him for that and I don't think that anybody shouldn't be able to do whatever work is available whether it's menial or not, work is work at the end of the day.

    I don't think sending people to do community work straight away would be good, give people a decent amount of time to find work, say 12 months, then yes I agree, they should do something useful with their time and give something back to society if they want society to pay for them.
    Last edited by beanoir; 10th November 2010 at 19:50.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFSI View Post
    But the genuine people have to be excused (Imagine a qualified engineer brushing the streets)
    Nothing wrong with that in my opinion, if he can't find work as an engineer then why not try his hand at something else? I wish people would get rid of the attitude that if you're a qualified this or a trained that, then doing something else isn't good enough.

    And oh god, the old "those nasty banks" line is such a scratched record, this country was on borrowed time, it just took the banks to take it over the edge. It wasn't the bank's fault it was years of a ****e Labour government that brought this country to its knees. Lets not forget, the financial industry is the biggest export this country has had for years, nobody moaned about them then when they were helping our economy grow.
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    Problem is, even if they are able to determine who the bums are and target these people, they are going to be put into the voluntary sector and are more than likely going to carry out jobs poorly or half heartedly, meaning that in a lot of cases people who genuinely want to carry out the work properly for free and out of the goodness of their hearts could be prevented from doing so.

    I reckon we could end up with a load of free workers who mince around most of the day not doing much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aythreee View Post
    I reckon we could end up with a load of free workers who mince around most of the day not doing much.
    Better than them sitting in the local bookies all day doing not much! But why should I pay for them to sponge, might as well kick them out into the big wide world to get cold and wet even if they don't end up making much difference, makes me feel better!

    There will be plenty of people that will be a waste of space and no good at anything, but at least it makes them get off their lazy backsides and prevents them watching TV all day. Then there will those that might actually enjoy helping out the local communities. I do it once or twice a year, it's not particularly difficult to do a bit of digging or cleaning a local pond or whatever, but it makes you feel a bit better about yourself at the end of the day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanoir View Post
    Better than them sitting in the local bookies all day doing not much! But why should I pay for them to sponge, might as well kick them out into the big wide world to get cold and wet even if they don't end up making much difference, makes me feel better!

    There will be plenty of people that will be a waste of space and no good at anything, but at least it makes them get off their lazy backsides and prevents them watching TV all day. Then there will those that might actually enjoy helping out the local communities. I do it once or twice a year, it's not particularly difficult to do a bit of digging or cleaning a local pond or whatever, but it makes you feel a bit better about yourself at the end of the day.
    I agree, and if it works then I'm all for it. It's just that people who work/manage within the voluntary sector are already expressing concerns about the the type of people that they will be getting sent and who they will have to deal with and send out into the community to work.

    Sometimes it's just better to leave a certain type of person smoking weed in their bedroom all day where they are kept safely away from the general public.

    I foresee a few horror stories appearing over the horizon if/when this all takes off.

    Guess we'll just have to suck it and see.

  11. #10
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    I'm not against people who have become unemployed for genuine reasons and are looking for work to support themselves and their families etc - I wish them the best of luck.

    As for the scroungers out there, all I can say is "your all full of excuses, your all like vampires - you don't get out of bed during the day and you've all got big televisions and computer games systems!" And "why the f%*k do you call the day when you get your JSA bloody PAY DAY?!"

    I firmly believe work is out there and if not then become self employed and DO SOMETHING - a lad in my neighbourhood was strugling so he borrowed a ladder, sponge and bucket and begun a window cleaning round and he's doing well for himself now - hats off to him for not being a BUM.

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    I think they need to get the lazy arses out there and get a job, there is ALWAYS a job for somebody! My mate went uni, got a decent degree had a good job then lost it through company cut back, he now has a kid on the way...So he does what any responsible adult would do.. GETS A JOB!! He now works in a local supermarket!! Swallow your bloody pride and get on with life! Dont just expect the rest of us to pay for your arse and your offsprings!

    I have the upmost respect for my mate for doing what he has done.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHRIS555 View Post
    And "why the f%*k do you call the day when you get your JSA bloody PAY DAY?!"
    Swallow your bloody pride and get on with life! Dont just expect the rest of us to pay for your arse
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    This is all going a bit off topic.
    It's not about whether or not people should get off their lazy ar$es and get a job, it's about whether the government should effectively force people into unpaid jobs that they don't want to do.

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    This work they are being pushed into,will it not put someone out of a job and make the wages of similar jobs even less ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by a3_dan View Post
    I think they need to get the lazy arses out there and get a job, there is ALWAYS a job for somebody! My mate went uni, got a decent degree had a good job then lost it through company cut back, he now has a kid on the way...So he does what any responsible adult would do.. GETS A JOB!! He now works in a local supermarket!! Swallow your bloody pride and get on with life! Dont just expect the rest of us to pay for your arse and your offsprings!

    I have the upmost respect for my mate for doing what he has done.
    unfortunately 4 months ago the company i was working for went into liquidation so i am noe currently unemployed. being from a welsh town jobs are scarce these days which is why im setting up my own business, i agree with what you are saying dude i really do as i see people around my way that are just there for the dole check but dont tarnish us with the same brush, i left school at the age of 16 and was working 12 hour shifts in factorys, i have done numerous jobs which i have worked very hard at whilst being there doing the hours that not most would do and i dont mean the work sitting behind a desk on a computer either, 16 hour days at a coal wash out in the pissin down snow and shoveling 12 tons a day of coal so the last thing i would take ****e from is a little pussy thats been to uni on mummy and daddys money for a few years and now calls themselves a solicitor and think they are hard working people paying my benefits which i have put my taxes into so its my money anyway and all the years i have worked and paid tax i will not receive back anyway. im trying my hardest to get my business up and running so i can earn a living and support myself. this country is fooked so saying that your job is safe in this climate is wrong as everything will get worse before it gets better on the job front. one day it maight happen to you you never know

    and if the goverment say i have to go on community service.............. well stop my money then!
    Last edited by S4twiggy; 10th November 2010 at 22:22.

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    I don't think those comments were aimed at people like you Twiggy, you clearly are making an effort to earn a decent living.

    My job is at risk, my misses got made redundant last week and my brother has been out of work since June, although he's working in a shop to try and make ends meet. It's tough times for us all.

    I think the aim of this is should those out of work and sitting on their backsides be made to go out and contribute to the community in return for their JSA if they have been out of work for a long period if time.
    Last edited by beanoir; 10th November 2010 at 22:34.
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    should really be changed from 'unemployed' to unemployable.
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    I think the thread title could be a bit misleading...
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnythepie View Post
    should really be changed from 'unemployed' to unemployable.
    It will affect both.

    Quote Originally Posted by beanoir View Post
    I think the thread title could be a bit misleading...
    Surely the opening posts explains it well enough?

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    Quote Originally Posted by S4twiggy View Post
    unfortunately 4 months ago the company i was working for went into liquidation so i am noe currently unemployed. being from a welsh town jobs are scarce these days which is why im setting up my own business, i agree with what you are saying dude i really do as i see people around my way that are just there for the dole check but dont tarnish us with the same brush, i left school at the age of 16 and was working 12 hour shifts in factorys, i have done numerous jobs which i have worked very hard at whilst being there doing the hours that not most would do and i dont mean the work sitting behind a desk on a computer either, 16 hour days at a coal wash out in the pissin down snow and shoveling 12 tons a day of coal so the last thing i would take ****e from is a little pussy thats been to uni on mummy and daddys money for a few years and now calls themselves a solicitor and think they are hard working people paying my benefits which i have put my taxes into so its my money anyway and all the years i have worked and paid tax i will not receive back anyway. im trying my hardest to get my business up and running so i can earn a living and support myself. this country is fooked so saying that your job is safe in this climate is wrong as everything will get worse before it gets better on the job front. one day it maight happen to you you never know

    and if the goverment say i have to go on community service.............. well stop my money then!
    Im glad you agree with what im saying dude. By no means was I trying to tarnish you all with the same brush, I guess i could have been more in-depth with who I was aiming my previous post at. Generally, the opposite to what you seem to be mate, i have nothing against people that have lost their jobs (god forbid it happenng to me at the moment) and people that have put their fair share into the system, so why not get back what you can when you need it most right?! I would expect that too!

    Now who I was aiming my post at was the type of people that come out of school (if they even go) and then just sign on and thats it! The people that never do try to sort themselves out and technically, never give back to the society.

    Hope this clears things up. And I wish you all the best in your new ventures in this challenging time mate!
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    This is a good one.
    I work all week for ok pay but my missis just had a baby and because she only worked a few hours on a weekend (we have a 3 year old aswell and don't get help with child care) she has been told she doesnt get any maternity pay from work, and the govement won't give her anything ether. So it's just my wage to look after the 2 of us and both kids.
    Now we know people that gave never worked, that have just been saying how much they spent on their kids for birthdays/Xmas (250/300 per child)
    I can't afford to do that for my kids, it proper gets my goat, so yes send them out to do free work if they are long time unemployed!!

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    Agree, the long term scroungers (not those who find themselves out of work through no fault of their own) should be made to graft. There's plenty of stuff that needs fixing, and if they try to do a **** job then they get demoted to chain gang. I bet that'll sort out their work ethic sharpish.
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    Its not free work though they are working to get Benifits. Id go full hog and only pay benifits out for essentials a credit type card that the goverment credits with x amount and can only be used to purchase essential items, no designer gear, no beer , no cigs etc.

    I also believe that there should be a better scheme for people who have worked for a number of years, what use is the benifit system to a once normal working person ??? There should be system where they get say 80% of their wage for 2 months then step it down until say after a year they are on the same as other benifit people and are then elagable to have to work for such benifit.
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    I can see both sides of the argument. Forcing lazy "bums" into doing a bit of work I don't have a problem with, but a lot of people who have genuine reasons for not working or are looking for work and genuinely cannot find anything, are inevitably going to get caught up in this, which I don't think is fair.
    And for these people, being forced into work that they don't want to do is tantamount to criminal punishment ('criminal punishment' such as community service for law breakers).

    They really need to think carefully about how and who they apply this forced work to. If not there are going to be a lot people feeling depressed and oppressed, who probably shouldn't be.
    Last edited by Ads; 11th November 2010 at 10:10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aythreee View Post
    ... are inevitably going to get caught up in this, which I don't think is fair...

    They really need to think carefully about how and who they apply this forced work to. If not there are going to be a lot people feeling depressed and oppressed, who probably should be.
    That's the problem, it's not a bad idea but will probably be implemented badly by some know-it-all local government bod who won't be able to identify real jobseekers from bums.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aythreee View Post
    And for these people, being forced into work that they don't want to do is tantamount to criminal punishment ('criminal punishment' such as community service for law breakers).
    Rubbish!! If thats the only work available then they should bloody well do it. Why should somebody have the choice of turning down work when the state is paying for them to find work??? Thats the problem with people these days, they have this high and mighty attitude and think that certain types of work are below them...."I'm a trained lawyer why should I stack shelves". Sod them, it's hard times and people have to pitch in and pull their weight i'm afraid!

    If you choose to turn down jobs offered to you after a certain period of time, then "JOB SEEKERS ALLOWANCE" should stop, because thats what it's intended for, for seeking work, not seeking the perfect well paid career!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanoir View Post
    Rubbish!! If thats the only work available then they should bloody well do it. Why should somebody have the choice of turning down work when the state is paying for them to find work??? Thats the problem with people these days, they have this high and mighty attitude and think that certain types of work are below them...."I'm a trained lawyer why should I stack shelves". Sod them, it's hard times and people have to pitch in and pull their weight i'm afraid!

    If you choose to turn down jobs offered to you after a certain period of time, then "JOB SEEKERS ALLOWANCE" should stop, because thats what it's intended for, for seeking work, not seeking the perfect well paid career!!
    Your view is narrow minded.
    Like I said, sometimes people have other genuine reasons for not wanting or feeling that they are able to carry out certain jobs.
    Some people are depressed enough about not being able to do the jobs they have spent all of their lives doing or studying for, and others just don't feel comfortable being in public places carrying out jobs that might get them noticed by the local "youths", for example.
    Imagine a man who is very shy, a loner, zero self confidence, sits in his house scared of what is going on in his local estate (there are many people like this), and all of a sudden he is told that he's got to go down to the local park and clean up around the swings where the local scum hang about most days.

    But according to you they should just be put in these situations, regardless of their issues with it, and who cares if it sends them into a downward spiral, they should just be able to deal with it. Brilliant!

    I know the above is a very specific example, but it and variations of it are very possible and likely.

    The big picture needs to be looked at, not a blanket idea and view like yours, heavy handedly applied.

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    Hate to admit it but three is right

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    Quote Originally Posted by voorhees View Post
    Hate to admit it but three is right
    I hate to say this but thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aythreee View Post
    ...Imagine a man who is very shy, a loner, zero self confidence, sits in his house scared of what is going on in his local estate (there are many people like this), and all of a sudden he is told that he's got to go down to the local park and clean up around the swings where the local scum hang about most days....
    Good point. I think this very thread shows that this idea has to be very carefully put into action. The bums on the streets need to forced into work if they want state handouts but then theres the (likely minority) of honest folk who should have a fighting chance at getting gainful employment (and thus what JSA is intended for, surely).
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    Quote Originally Posted by aythreee View Post
    I hate to say this but thanks.
    Perhaps teaching motorists where their petrol goes or something....
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    Quote Originally Posted by aythreee View Post
    others just don't feel comfortable being in public places carrying out jobs that might get them noticed by the local "youths", for example.
    Imagine a man who is very shy, a loner, zero self confidence, sits in his house scared of what is going on in his local estate (there are many people like this), and all of a sudden he is told that he's got to go down to the local park and clean up around the swings where the local scum hang about most days.
    I agree with that, but like you say thats a very very narrow argument and certainly not "looking at the wider picture" as you put it. I accept that some may not, but lets face it, the man who is scared of the "youths" can be employed elsewhere eventually.

    Yes careful consideration needs to be given to implementing any type of plan like this as there will be minority that need cuddling a bit more to find a suitable job for them, but that won't take for ever if it does then I'd question how fussy one should be in that situation.

    But what I certainly do not agree with is when you say:

    Some people are depressed enough about not being able to do the jobs they have spent all of their lives doing or studying for
    Get over it, so what. I was lucky enough to go to university and spent years and years in education for a career in Industrial Design. When I graduated I struggled for years to try and find a suitable entry to that career, and spent years working in supermarkets, factories, mail order companies selling pot plants to old ladies whilst I strived to find that perfect job. I got over it, I now work in a completely different sector, and have made it a career.

    For those people who boo hoo about not being able to work, too depressed they can't be an engineer/doctor/lawyer or whatever, then I say welcome to planet earth where life ain't a bloody fairy tale folks.
    Last edited by beanoir; 11th November 2010 at 11:44.
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    I voted no.

    For starts, if any of you actually KNEW the type of people who were "Bums" you'd know that most often they're not sitting on Jobseekers allowance. Thats too much effort because on JSA you already need to prove your looking for work, need to go for a meeting every week (or fortnight) with them and show them what jobs you've been applying for.

    No, what they do is get themselves signed off sick, because that way they only have to make a doctors visit every 6 months for a new line. No weekly trips to the job centre, no annoying wifey hassling them etc etc. Plus if they're signed off sick, they're also unable to go and do manual work in the streets, because being signed off sick by definition says you CANT work, even if the true reason is that you wont. (and i'm not for any second suggesting everyone on the sick are taking the piss, far from it!)

    So this is largely going to completely unaffect those types of bums that most of you are referring to.

    True, some of the bums are on JSA, perhaps the ones not crafty enough to wangle a sick line, but even those know how to play the system well enough that these schemes never affect them, for instance you start a job, then get sacked after a week or two. This then counts as starting a new JSA claim, so you end up never having been on JSA for long enough to trigger the voluntary work scheme (which requires you to have been out of work for 4 months or whatever).

    You need to remember some of these people are 2nd and 3rd generation scroungers. They know EVERY trick and scam in the book and they know exactly how to work the system so they never get caught.

    So what are you left with... Regular working folk like you or me, who simply cant find work, either becuase they have limited skills, or because there is no work available that aligns with their skillset. The JSA system is already bad enough that skilled people are already forced to look at other professions just to sign on, for instance i hold a computer science degree, and a few years ago i signed on for a couple months while looking for work. When going thru the application the woman asked me for three work categories i'd like to look for work in, and I listed three different IT related roles. The woman looked at me as if i was stupid and said "you cant choose three things the same", i tried suggesting that a sysadmin was nothing like a software analyst, but she basically said "tough you cant do it" and i ended up putting down "Car Audio Installer" and "shop worker" as well.

    Given all that, and that its only likely to affect the people really looking for work, it shouldnt be made worse by forcing them out onto the streets. Ofcourse the usual newspaper rags will ensure the public percieves these changes as though they're going to tackle the workshy, when infact they wont.

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  35. #34
    beanoir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aragorn View Post
    it shouldnt be made worse by forcing them out onto the streets.
    I dont think thats the plan to be honest, I think it's intended to get people to do work.

    It's all part of the wider agenda of changing the culture that this country has slipped into over recent decades of being a bit soft and left wing, it's also part and parcel of the current re-structuring of the benfits system in general to encourage every person that lives here to be responsible in some way or another in sharing the pain that is needed to reduce public spending and ensuring this country can start to live within it's means.

    No policies are pefect, they never will be, but something has to be done and I'm glad to see that somebody at last has the balls to run this country properly.

    Thats my last post on this thread as i'm starting to go OT...my cord has been pulled!
    Last edited by beanoir; 11th November 2010 at 12:02.
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  36. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanoir View Post
    but like you say thats a very very narrow argument and certainly not "looking at the wider picture" as you put it. I accept that some may not, but lets face it, the man who is scared of the "youths" can be employed elsewhere eventually.
    I fail to see how you can call my view "narrow". As I posted earlier, I can see why SOME people do need to be forced into work, and I didn't apply the example I gave about people who shouldn't be forced into work to EVERYONE. So I am looking at the "wider picture" and trying to see it from all angles. However, the opinion you expressed wasn't, hence the reason I referred to it as narrow minded.

    Quote Originally Posted by beanoir View Post
    For those people who boo hoo about not being able to work, too depressed they can't be an engineer/doctor/lawyer or whatever, then I say welcome to planet earth where life ain't a bloody fairy tale folks.
    Again, very narrow minded.

  37. #36
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    a lot of people that the mickey and play on stuff just to avoid other stuff i.e work. I dare say if I wanted to I could get myself classed as depressed if I tried or any other sympton simular its a hard one to prove
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    Fingermouse: Which is my point, the people who form the so called culture of "workshy" in this country will simply be uneffected by this policy.

    Beanoir seems to have completely ignored the majority of my post and just commented on one tiny point at the end. The people this will affect are NOT the people who dont want to work, because those people know EXACTLY how to play the system, work every loop hole and will ensure they continue to sit on their arses. I know this because i know people that do it, and have done it for years.

    Labour brought in a system where by everyone on incapacity benefit had to have their symptoms double checked and verified by a private clinic. Net result? People who are incapable of working thru physical or mental illness have the indignity of having to visit an unknown doctor in an unfamiliar place and "prove" they're actually ill, while the people who are faking it simply continue their well practiced spiel and fool the new doctor too. All that results in is people who ARE entitled to the benefit end up dropping out because they cant face a trip to said private clinic or are physically unable to get there, and the fakers getting away with it without a problem. Again, i know people who have been in this situation. Tell someone thats clinically depressed and struggles to even leave their house to visit the local supermarket to visit an unknown person in the nearby city to prove their ill, and the likely outcome is a no-show and their benefit being stopped because of the very reason their on the benefit in the first instance.

    The majority of people this will affect are people who are genuinely looking for work, and certainly dont need pushed out the door.

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  39. #38
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    Right, i'm going to revoke my previous comment about not posting here again, as I can't help but think that people are crossing wires a bit and actually confusing each others views. I wonder if we set out a few sceanrios what people's views would be.. Hope you don't mind Aythreee, not wishing to hijack your thread?

    Should the following people be asked to partake in community work in order to continue to receive their JSA:

    Person A) 22 year old graduate, has just finished a degree in Aeronautical Design, has spent the last 6 months applying for jobs in his chosen career, lives at home with parents, has been offered other jobs but not in his chosen career path so has declined these.

    Person B) 40 year old qualified Streetlighting Technician. Has been out of work now for 18 months as Local and Central Govt have cut budgets to modernise street lighting. Has just been offered a job by the Job Centre as an assistant at the local Travis Perkins, but declines it on the basis that it doesn't pay as much as his qualifications dictate.

    Person C) 27 year old Investment Banker, no qualifications to speak of, finding it hard to find work in the City and has been out of work for 3 months. Prepared to do anything as long as they can keep the Ferrari. Has just signed on, no job offers yet from the Job Centre.

    Person D) 33 year, Factory Worker, has been out of work for 3 years, can't really be bothered to work as it's easier for them to claim benefits.

    What do you reckon?
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  40. #39
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    i cant believe people are dis agreeing with it?!?! wtf. people with skills and are valuable to the economy will and should be able to find work with some little time, theres nothing wrong with them earning there job seekers by doin small jobs for th community. as for these invaluable wastes of space who think its ok to drain the government dry when were in debt. it is soooo so right they have to work for it. in the words of peter griffin, it really grinds my gears

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFSI View Post
    Look at there history if they have not worked for 5 years get them doing a bit.

    If they have held a responsible job in the last 2 years leave em alone. they are not responsible for the drop bo**ock by the lowlife banks
    that is a perfect and very reasonable way of sorting it

 

 
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