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Thread: bigger nozzles for the 2.5 TDI V6, at last useful info !!!

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    bigger nozzles for the 2.5 TDI V6, at last useful info !!!

    Hello Everyone,

    At last I got useful info about bigger nozzels for the 2.5 V6 TDI.
    Got hold of a friendly guy at BOSCH who has acces to the datasheets.
    I dished up a number of nozzle part numbers and asked for the specs.

    The stock nozzle for the 180hp AKE engine is the 142P925 which flows 380cc/30sec and has 6 spray holes
    The DSLA 142P1519 has 440cc/30sec, 6 spray holes AND the same spray angle as the 142P925
    That is +-16% more flow and the same spray pattern, seems te be ideal to me !

    For the very power hungry, the 143P894 has 800cc/30sec and 8 spray holes :-))

    Best Regards

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    joedredd's Avatar
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    Dont suppose you can get info for AFB engine?? or can I use the nozzles above, are they the same spray angle?
    1998 A6 Avant 2.5TDI Retired at 185k miles
    2006 A6 Avant 3.0TDI S Line Quattro

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    Hello,

    The AFB had 5 spray holes and if I remember correctly had a tiny bit lower flowrate than the AKE.
    But the spray angle was also 142. You can definately use the 142P1519 in the AFB engine, 6 spray holes will give you better atomization.
    I am convinced this is the right way to go, now we know we get about 16% extra flowrate from a quality Bosch nozzle at an affordable price. I once had 'performance' .240 injectors in my old 2.5 AEL, they delivered some extra power, but spray pattern was erratic from day 1 and after 2 months I had to throw them out because they where leaking and one of them started making noise. I don't pretend that there aren't good quality performance nozzles other than Bosch, but I don't want to go through the effort, cost and risk to try and find the good ones if I can buy Bosch OEM quality at a lower price. But this is only my personal view.

    Best Regards

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    joedredd's Avatar
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    Dont suppose "your friendly guy at Bosch" can get these at very good prices as well ?
    1998 A6 Avant 2.5TDI Retired at 185k miles
    2006 A6 Avant 3.0TDI S Line Quattro

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    Hello,

    I just ordered mine, 66€+VAT each, normal Bosch price.

    B.R

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    diffas's Avatar
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    Any idea how to change the idle-IQ from AKN? I'm currently running those 8-hole nozzles. Maybe to much fuel on idle.
    Slow and smoking - A4 2.5TDi+ 220+kw

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    You are running the 143P894 ?
    There is an adaptation channel for the fuelling around idle, but I doubt it will let you do corrections anywhere as big as you need to get it running perfectly with those injectors.
    You will need a proper remap, and then still it won't be as smooth and smokefree as stock.
    I think you did overdo it a bit, 800cc compared to 380cc, thats more than double (and AKN had even less than 380cc), are you running a HUGE charger to deliver enough air to achieve 300+ hp ?
    Also, the AKN pump only has 2 plungers, the AKE had 3. So your pump is probably maxed out at 185hp.

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    diffas's Avatar
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    Pump maxed out? I runned over 200hp with stock nozzles. Proper remap and enuff air should do the trick...my goal is ~180kw.
    Current charger is maybe too small (2556) for even reaching that 180kw. That we will see later. I'll dyno my current setup on
    next weekend. I'm not sure are my nozzles the same you mentioned, because this engine has bit different nozzle holders than AFB.
    Stock nozzles were 142P795 5x0.18 and I believe the new bigger ones are from Iveco/Cummins truck (143P970 8x0.16 holes).
    Same nozzles will not work on AFB and AKN, even the engines are more or less the same.

    What comes to rough idle - i put off the Econ button and the car runs idle smoothly . So ony tiny iq change needs to be done.
    Whats the adaption channel and with what login code?
    Last edited by diffas; 1st May 2010 at 11:00.
    Slow and smoking - A4 2.5TDi+ 220+kw

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    Try 26262 for login code and its the first block you can adjust (iddle speed) or block nr. 3 wich is the injection quantity at iddle but it might not do much ! Try a combination of both and make shure you make a note of the old values just in case things dont go as they should. If the 26262 login code does not work, then you might have an early ECU and you will need to cross reference ETKA for the propper login codes...
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    diffas's Avatar
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    That login code isn't working. :/ My ecu is 8D0 907 401 Q
    I need to keep my Econ-button off then.

    Slow and smoking - A4 2.5TDi+ 220+kw

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    Hello,

    Where did you get the injector bodies for the IVECO nozzles ? Are they a straight fit in the 2.5 TDI's heads ?

    B.R

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    diffas's Avatar
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    Well ok u just need to use nozzle tips from iveco/cummins not the whole injector. The tip fits your own stock injectorbody. I got my nozzles from
    TDIfreak from Findiesel. Email: info at findiesel.fi

    btw: my latest dyno is here. Floored at 2000rpm. We will see the result
    when we do new mod later on this summer. Now I have "bigger" turbo than
    I had when that dyno was ran.
    Last edited by diffas; 21st June 2010 at 18:44.
    Slow and smoking - A4 2.5TDi+ 220+kw

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    Quote Originally Posted by diffas View Post
    Well ok u just need to use nozzle tips from iveco/cummins not the whole injector. The tip fits your own stock injectorbody. I got my nozzles from
    TDIfreak from Findiesel. Email: info at findiesel.fi

    btw: my latest dyno is here. Floored at 2000rpm. We will see the result
    when we do new mod later on this summer. Now I have "bigger" turbo than
    I had when that dyno was ran.
    what's the price of those 143P894 ?

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    diffas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doktorec View Post
    what's the price of those 143P894 ?
    Can't say correct price but around 600-700euros. Send email to findiesel if you want correct info.
    Slow and smoking - A4 2.5TDi+ 220+kw

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackwagon View Post

    For the very power hungry, the 143P894 has 800cc/30sec and 8 spray holes :-))

    Best Regards
    For some reason the last bosch part number isnt recognised by my local Bosch agent, do you know what vehicles are they for ?
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    i heard that AFB and AKN have deferent injector body.can i run them( 143P894)on AFB quatrro with big turbochagrer or they fit only AKN?

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    I can offer nozzles for 2.5 V6 engines.If you are running something bigger than the original turbo you need fuel.NOBODY can tweak VP44.So the right way to go is nozzles.I can offer two different.The first one is 8x180 -66% more fuel but when you remove the pressure drop from the pump it's really 50-55% which is good for 300-320hp.For the very power hungry i can offer 8x190 which is 88% more fuel.-really 70%.This is with the same spray angle.They are custom made.8 holes mean better atomozation and more power.
    diffas likes this.

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    diffas's Avatar
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    Can you say about prices?
    Slow and smoking - A4 2.5TDi+ 220+kw

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    75E is the price for a piece.The 8x180 are sac hole nozzles and have all the benefits from the sac.

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    This is the nozzle autocad picture to see the design. size 8x180 142 degrees
    ImageShack - Online Photo and Video Hosting

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    I think I read somewhere you can use Cummins nozzles, if thats the case, are these any use???

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    they are chinese junk wes, good nozzles are 50-80 quid a piece...
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    You can't use those, they are for the older vp44 cummins and are way wrong spray angle. 03-04 cummins cr engine nozzles will work.
    Slow and smoking - A4 2.5TDi+ 220+kw

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    That's going really well, i notice there's no idle shudder, what clutch do you have in there and how's your vp44 pump copping with the fuel supply ?

    my a6 is suffering from fuel starvation with the Bosio race 683 nozzles, clutch is slipping in 4th/5th and 6th with new tune, seems to hold well with old tune, still in two minds if to go for a Sachs SRE or use a single mass flywheel in there with reinforced rs4 clutch...
    FOR SALE:
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    Quote Originally Posted by adamss24 View Post
    That's going really well, i notice there's no idle shudder, what clutch do you have in there and how's your vp44 pump copping with the fuel supply ?

    my a6 is suffering from fuel starvation with the Bosio race 683 nozzles, clutch is slipping in 4th/5th and 6th with new tune, seems to hold well with old tune, still in two minds if to go for a Sachs SRE or use a single mass flywheel in there with reinforced rs4 clutch...
    No idle shudder because of the nozzle design.8 holes not 6.The pop up pressure is standart 220bar.The clutch on A6 is brand new stock clutch.On the other car we made this and it's holding very nice. http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/8841/img1119gq.jpg

    The VP44 pump is not haveing problems with fuel delivery(IMO you have other problem)

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    diffas's Avatar
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    Idle shudder usually appears when IQ is too small, like I have. I have currently cummins 970 nozzles @ 240bar and rough idle is present. Just gets too much fuel on idle...Iq is @ 3.5 and ecu asks -5mg/str correction, so it cuts fuel. I need to get higher opening pressure to reduce low revs fueling, but it seems to have problem to find correct adjustment pins for that. Any clue where to find those adjustment pins? Genuine bosch pin-set costs about 5500€ so no thanks. :D

    adamss24, I recommend to you increase pop up pressure too on your nozzles, that could do the trick.
    Slow and smoking - A4 2.5TDi+ 220+kw

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    Quote Originally Posted by diffas View Post
    Idle shudder usually appears when IQ is too small, like I have. I have currently cummins 970 nozzles @ 240bar and rough idle is present. Just gets too much fuel on idle...Iq is @ 3.5 and ecu asks -5mg/str correction, so it cuts fuel. I need to get higher opening pressure to reduce low revs fueling, but it seems to have problem to find correct adjustment pins for that. Any clue where to find those adjustment pins? Genuine bosch pin-set costs about 5500€ so no thanks. :D

    adamss24, I recommend to you increase pop up pressure too on your nozzles, that could do the trick.
    On me other allroad i have Bosio Power plus 683 nozzles which are set up in old AFB injectors and the engine is noisier than the a6 with the race 683 injectors. I had the injector's set-up by dieselbob in uk and it's miles better than before but still shudders on idle !
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    We will make you the adjistment pins for less money than bosch but that is not going to solve your problems.I can send you adjisment pins but the problem is not with the pins.

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    As Diffas said, the issue with large nozzles is too much fuel injected at idle, increasing pop pressures help to some extent but make engine funny to drive when taking off. My allroad takes off with a little more revs from a start, as i use the car primarily for towing i got used to slipping the clutch a little especially when loaded ! The pp683 nozzles fitted to AFB injectors are making the engine idle steady but a little bit noisier than standard. On the other a6 i have the race 683 nozzles fitted to AKE injectors which are a different design and you cannot get more than 240-250 Bars of power from them. I will try fitting them to AFB injectors and raising pop pressures to 260-280 Bars- that should cure the iddle shudder !
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    Quote Originally Posted by adamss24 View Post
    As Diffas said, the issue with large nozzles is too much fuel injected at idle, increasing pop pressures help to some extent but make engine funny to drive when taking off. My allroad takes off with a little more revs from a start, as i use the car primarily for towing i got used to slipping the clutch a little especially when loaded ! The pp683 nozzles fitted to AFB injectors are making the engine idle steady but a little bit noisier than standard. On the other a6 i have the race 683 nozzles fitted to AKE injectors which are a different design and you cannot get more than 240-250 Bars of power from them. I will try fitting them to AFB injectors and raising pop pressures to 260-280 Bars- that should cure the iddle shudder !
    How do you put race683 on a AKE injector?If you have putted them plug and play you will have problems.The nozzle needle of the AFB injector is 0,1mm lower than the AKE.So it's not plug and play.

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    The PP683 nozzles were fitted to AFB injectors- they are different than the AKE injectors.

    The race 683 nozzles were fitted to AKE injectors, as far as i know Bosio 683 nozzles are designed for AFB injector bodies.

    I have no problem with iddle shudder on AFB injectors/PP683 nozzles but i have idle shudder on AKE injectors/Race 683 nozzles- both sets were fitted and tested/adjusted by diesel specialist here in Uk...
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    diffas's Avatar
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    It is possible to use 683 nozzles on newer (akn/ake/bdg) injector bodies with some adapter or what so ever they use.

    Wonder how high pop up pressure i need for the doctorec nozzles. My current ones are 8x0.16 970 from cummins and 240bar isn't enough, with 245-248 they run a bit better, but not much. I think 260 would be fine.
    Slow and smoking - A4 2.5TDi+ 220+kw

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    It's not an adapter.You must change the pin for the pop up pressure with the same with 0.1mm longer for the same pop up pressure.
    We have installed the nozzles on 2 cars A6 and A4 AKE and there isn't any idle problems.The cars are with standart pop up on 220bar.I had small idle problems with p970.

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    Quote Originally Posted by doktorec View Post
    It's not an adapter.You must change the pin for the pop up pressure with the same with 0.1mm longer for the same pop up pressure.
    We have installed the nozzles on 2 cars A6 and A4 AKE and there isn't any idle problems.The cars are with standart pop up on 220bar.I had small idle problems with p970.
    Hi guys.
    I have a 2004 A4 2,5 tdi BAU,BDH and tried to put PP683 on it. At idle it runned very poorly, but i felt and increase in power and better milage on diesel.
    But I had to take them of and tested them, opened allready at 155-170 bar. I noticed that the needle was approximately 0,24mm shorter than the stock.
    On the spring it is 2 chims approximately 1,36mm. I will now try to get some new thicker chims so I can get the pop pressure to 220bar.
    You have to excuse my english :P

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    You people don't understand ENGLISH.I am telling you that PP683 and RACE683 are not designed for the new engines.They are designed ONLY for AFB.They will fit but you need to rise the pressure not with chims.With chims you raise the main injection pressure.You need longer pin for pop up.If you try any other way you will drive your cars with very poor idle.It has another trick that can be done but I don't think you can do it.I make 2-3 sets for 2.5tdi V6 a day.I know what I am talking.
    Last edited by doktorec; 15th June 2013 at 00:22.

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    Quote Originally Posted by doktorec View Post
    You people don't understand ENGLISH.I am telling you that PP683 and RACE683 are not designed for the new engines.They are designed ONLY for AFB.They will fit but you need to rise the pressure not with chims.With chims you raise the main injection pressure.You need longer pin for pop up.If you try any other way you will drive your cars with very poor idle.It has another trick that can be done but I don't think you can do it.I make 2-3 sets for 2.5tdi V6 a day.I know what I am talking.
    Can you tell me where I can get a longer pin then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by doktorec View Post
    You people don't understand ENGLISH.I am telling you that PP683 and RACE683 are not designed for the new engines.They are designed ONLY for AFB.They will fit but you need to rise the pressure not with chims.With chims you raise the main injection pressure.You need longer pin for pop up.If you try any other way you will drive your cars with very poor idle.It has another trick that can be done but I don't think you can do it.I make 2-3 sets for 2.5tdi V6 a day.I know what I am talking.
    Nobody is contesting what you know or what you do mate, a nozzle is just that- a nozzle, as long as the spray pattern is the same they will work in any injector that uses the same spray pattern. The race683 nozzles were designed to be used in the AFB engine, yes it's true so you can source a set of AFB injectors and fit the race nozzles to these injectors- they will fit the BAU/BDG head no problem. The difference is between the injectors internals and not the heads- hence many use later BAU/BDG cam roller heads on early AFB/AKE/AKN/AYM/BFC engines.

    The difference with the later injectors is the needle lift sensor has a round connector and the early AFB engines have a square connector- easy to buy a plug from dealer or -if you're really anal- you can get a AFB set of injectors from late a4 b5 2000-2001 with auto gearbox. That will be plug and play on later engines and let you raise pop pressures to 200-240 Bar of pressure.

    I have PP683 into a w reg allroad and they are fine, no idle shudder as such, however -with the new injectors- the engine has less torque at low revs but more power up the rev range, car is not mapped yet as i use it for towing !

    The Race 683 i have in the a6 were fitted to standard AKE inectors and they have lower pop pressures, the engine idles fine for a while when starting from cold but starts to missfire slightly after a couple of minutes. If i let the engine idle for 5 min the idle stabilizes and no more hunting ! I have sourced another set of AFB inectors and i will get them pop tested and adjusted and report back with my findings- porting a pair of BDG heads to fit a AKE engine with 3.0L displacement- that should be fun when i am finished ! Looking for options for a clutch man enough to take 700-800Nm of torque...chime in if you have any suggestions !
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    Higher pop up pressure reduces overfueling on low revs and less smoke. Worth of testing and maybe your shutdown problems will be over too. I had same kind of problem few years ago that engine shut down when accelerating. There was something with the pump, everything was replaced with ake distributing head. After repair it has been working fine and no shutdowns.
    Slow and smoking - A4 2.5TDi+ 220+kw

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamss24 View Post
    Nobody is contesting what you know or what you do mate, a nozzle is just that- a nozzle, as long as the spray pattern is the same they will work in any injector that uses the same spray pattern. The race683 nozzles were designed to be used in the AFB engine, yes it's true so you can source a set of AFB injectors and fit the race nozzles to these injectors- they will fit the BAU/BDG head no problem. The difference is between the injectors internals and not the heads- hence many use later BAU/BDG cam roller heads on early AFB/AKE/AKN/AYM/BFC engines.




    The difference with the later injectors is the needle lift sensor has a round connector and the early AFB engines have a square connector- easy to buy a plug from dealer or -if you're really anal- you can get a AFB set of injectors from late a4 b5 2000-2001 with auto gearbox. That will be plug and play on later engines and let you raise pop pressures to 200-240 Bar of pressure.

    I have PP683 into a w reg allroad and they are fine, no idle shudder as such, however -with the new injectors- the engine has less torque at low revs but more power up the rev range, car is not mapped yet as i use it for towing !

    The Race 683 i have in the a6 were fitted to standard AKE inectors and they have lower pop pressures, the engine idles fine for a while when starting from cold but starts to missfire slightly after a couple of minutes. If i let the engine idle for 5 min the idle stabilizes and no more hunting ! I have sourced another set of AFB inectors and i will get them pop tested and adjusted and report back with my findings- porting a pair of BDG heads to fit a AKE engine with 3.0L displacement- that should be fun when i am finished ! Looking for options for a clutch man enough to take 700-800Nm of torque...chime in if you have any suggestions !

    No it doesn't go that way.So if you put race683 or pp683 you have to buy a new set of AFB nozzles plus the needle lift sensor.Yeah great.
    After that when you put pp683 your torque at low revs dissapears.GREAT.But you win no iddle shudder.
    Or you put RACE683 and you get low pop up and 5 min of no shudder.SUPERB.You gain low end torque.
    Why don't you simply put a longer pin or buy plug and play nozzles and solve your problems easy???

 

 
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