2.5TDi V6 quattro Sport 180hp Turbochip

I'm going to start a "didn't pass my MOT saga" thread in a minute. The plane was late on Friday so i missed my slot to get the tyres done. That meant I couldn't get a retest on Saturday and now the tax is more than 14 days out of date so i'm illegal unless travelling to a prebooked MOT. Mark at Celtic had fixed the fuel leak on the filter but now the number plate lights in the tailgate have gone. A 600+mile blip to Shropshire and back to see my hospitalised Mum therefore ended up as a solo thrash in the A4 (any advance on 132 on the sat nav for an A4 1.9TDI anyone?). So the car got new front tyres this morning and is now sitting at ANOTHER MOT test centre around the corner from Celtic to get the light done and the MOT done. 3rd time lucky I hope, and then a bit more mapping development.
 
Hilarious. MOT tester number 3 rewired the tailgate to fix the lights as most of the connectors were u/s, and then phoned to say I needed a new tyre! Laugh - i nearly shot myself. Took the match worn old front offside tyre i'd bunged on the spare and stuck that on the nearside rear. And so I finally got my MOT. Onwards and upwards i now look forward to the paperwork wrangle at the post office on Saturday to get my new tax disc. What could possibly go wrong....
 
Good news - saw 150 on the clock during another 600mile trip to visit the folks, no sat nav in the car, previous experience indicates about 145 genuine. That'll be the tyres scrubbed in then. Oh and i got the tax disc finally.
Bad news - think the N75 boost control has gone, lack of power and big very black smoke clouds at the merest hint of load under acceleration. Just like when i first had it. This is where we find out about turbo dynamics warranty...
 
It wasn't the N75, i'd shed another rocker and cap from the top of a tappet (not the same one as before). The rocker arm was lying on the head when Celtic took the cover off, but the cap has disappeared. Also the fuel filter was almost empty. Therefore have said service the engine as its due, drop the sump and change the filters and look for the cap, and replace the in-tank pump. If the hydraulic tappets are sticking it could be oil pressure, or wear from the original seizure, but the pump was replaced last Christmas so ought to be OK and its done about 30k since the seizure so why start sticking now? I am not going to get the head rebuilt to replace all the tappets. I'm not going to strip the engine looking for the cap. As i was doing about 1** when the power faded, and did about another 500 miles at, er, motorway speeds shall we say, if it was going to go somewhere it was going to cause damage i think i'd know about it by now. The cost of a head rebuild or complete strip down is too much, i have found an absolutely identical car for sale for £5400 with only 140k on the clock, so if this one explodes i'll buy the other one and swap the bits and sell the remains. Famous last words.
 
Now 2 rocker arms out, Found the cap in the sump. Cams are showing signs of wear and the rockers that have popped out are worn too. The ones that have come out are on the inlet side so replacement is a timing belts off problem. Due to all the wear issues its going back to Falmouth Garage who rebuilt all the cams and rockers last Christmas. To paraphrase a famous saying, I am going outside to the bar, and may be gone some time.
 
Jees and I thought I could get bad luck sometimes ......

Any updates? What did Falmouth Garage say?
 
The rocker that has come out is on the left hand bank, same side of the engine that spat the last one out. Celtic got the engine back together and one of the rockers back in but minus one rocker and cap, and i drove the car round to Falmouth. They have looked up their records. They did not replace all the rockers last Christmas. Will leave the car there next week for them to look at it. We shall see. Another pint of Guiness please.
 
Still regularly reading this ongoing saga - did you assume they had replaced all rocker arms with the cams - surely that would be normal and anything less would not be a proper job??
 
Sorry to hear about your misfortune.
I am also driving around on 23 valves due to a rocker that went missing, I didn't even know till I pulled a valve cover to replace the Injector sensor. I found so many people having the same problem and on top the inevitable cam lobe wear issue so I decided to buy a set of roller cam heads for my engine.
I found the heads on E-bay for 840€, 45000km in very good condition. They are now ready to go on one of the next weekends. I ported them and had them pressure tested and skimmed.
So if you are looking for a replacement engine, do try to get the 'BAU' (180hp) or 'BDG' (163hp). Bear in mind that the VP44 of the BDG is not capable of delivering the amount of fuel your AKE pump does, so you would have to swap them. Like this you have the roller rocker heads. If possible try to buy a late 2003 engine, the first production months of the roller cams had problems with lobes coming off.

I fear your engine wasn't rebuild all that well, you always mentionned the high oil consumption, something just isn't right, maybe bore tolerances. I also don't understand why on earth they didn't install a complete set of new rocker arms when replacing the cams.

I hope you don't get discouraged now you got this far, if you get the roller heads you should have a pretty bullet proof engine that goes like hell :)

B.R

Stefan
 
joedredd said:
Stefan, who did the heads for you??
Click to expand...

Hi Joe,

I did them myself, about 7 hours of careful grinding did the job.
If you have work done on the ports better don't mess with the swirl intake port, the intake port that is meant to deliver a vertical flow can be optimised quite substantially.
The exhaust ports can be optimised around the seats and valve guides.
Ik can post some pictures if you want

B.R

Stefan
 
blackwagon said:
Hi Joe,

I did them myself, about 7 hours of careful grinding did the job.
If you have work done on the ports better don't mess with the swirl intake port, the intake port that is meant to deliver a vertical flow can be optimised quite substantially.
The exhaust ports can be optimised around the seats and valve guides.
Ik can post some pictures if you want

B.R

Stefan
Click to expand...

Pictures will be great, thanks.
 
The cam has worn with the follower on one lobe only out of all 4 cams. I am sending my photos of the old cams to them to see of the wear is on the same lobe as before, which would indicate an oil supply problem at that point. I'm not sure this will be of much use as the old cams were worn in several places. The garage cannot tell at the moment which followers were new and old. There may be a problem with warranty believe it or not. The work was done at a Skoda garage part of the VAG group but its an Audi car. Its possible that the car may have to got to an Audi garage to have the repair done.
 
After some negotiation between Falmouth Garage and Audi, the car is off to Audi next week so they can look at the cam and sort out any warranty work.
Basically Skoda won't warrant the work as its an Audi part fitted to an Audi. It appears that is theres a problem with an Audi part it has to be an Audi garage that does the investigative and any warranty work. Falmouth garage described other events where genuine Skoda parts had been fitted by a non Skoda garage. When there was problem the customer had gone back to his garage, got it fixed, then looked for a warranty for the faulty parts, Skoda had said no because the repair work was not done by an approved Skoda garage.
 
Fj12, What a story. Nice one. Glad someone has taken the time to document this and hopefully arrive at a stage 1 /2 for thes engines as info out there is very poor. Hope it all ends well for you.

Just got a 70k 2001 AKE Allroad Q in place of a 110k 2005 Sline 2.0 140 as I needed space, leather and something to tow with. After reading all of above I am scared stiff to take the rocker covers off!!

I have a few probelms I could really use some direction on:

1. Fuel consumption, no where near what I expected, on the 30 min 40-50mph run to work it give me a genuine 25-27mpg ! DIS seems to be accurate to tank test. Although on a 100mile run I got 33.

2. Ran like a bag of spanners when cold and was a fog machine, but 6 bosch glows later and the tractor has been banished. Plug 6 (or is it 1, closest to driver), was black up to threads, all others only black at tip. Not one of the old ones were working ! does this mean any issue on this cyl or just was not seated? Most were near impossible to remove.

3. Cooling. Will not budge above 70deg unless I half cover rad. Last thermostat I replaced took 30min. Not happy to discover where this one is. Could it be the viscous coupling, seems to be moving alot of air at cold? Can this be removed without dropping the front off?

4. Diff. Clunk in rear diff on harsh change. R/R diff output bearing has movement + weep oil. Also about 5-10degree backlash in crownwheel to pinion. Runs quiet. Replace or repair?

5. Was going to get injectors recon, is mounting clamp under rocker cover? Should I consider different noz if changing anyway. Suspect lift sensor as per above post re feul problems.

All help appreciated.

Shane

01 Allroad 2.5TDI 180
01 Passat 130 sport 6sp
67 MGB 150hp Race Car
 
If your driving is suburban or windy rural lanes i can believe 25-27mpg. If it jumping to 33 on a run that sounds OK.
If its only done 70k in 8-9 years then maybe the previous owner did a lot of short runs, may explain why the insides are all black. I would think the inside of the manifolds and EGR valve will be very mucky inside too
A constant 70c yes the thermostat is in trouble, but at 70k you are due a cambelt change soon so get it done then. In fact time expire and replace everything while the front end is off, thats what costs the money. Viscous coupling could be iffy, had mine done at about 176k from memory when car was about 6 years old.
Diff, sorry no experience there
At 70k i'd be surprised if your nozzles need anything more than cleaning, would not expect wear. I would only replace at this mileage unless there was definitely a fault or you wanted bigger ones for a remap
 
Thanks FJ12.
From reading up before I purchased I hoped mpgs in the 20's were not to be expected, but you live and learn.

Unfortunately the previous owner seems not to have replaced the stat when the belts were done at 63k (according to records at least). Anyone know an easy way of determining whether the stat or fan are at fault? thought of disconnecting the fan (which can be done without removing the front) and tying it out of the way, then idle the car and watch the temp, if it rises to 90 and goes no further then stat is ok, ie it opened when it should? Getting it back on might be fun though :w00t:. Or using a borescope to visually inspect it down the coolant manifold running from the stat housing?

Think I will take the rocker covers off, make sure all is where it should be and while I am at it take the injectors for a test and clean/recon if needed. Just need to find someone to do a quick turn around on an inector test, or can this be done by inspection only?
 
According to Audi the problem is a common one in that the oilway holes through the rockers that allow oil up to to the surface between cam and rocker get blocked. Apparently they have cleaned out the hole in the worn rocker with a pin. Well thats news to me, i've been told the lubrication is by splash from the oil feeds and never found any holes in the rockers that came off last time. I've just looked at the photos i took of the remaining bits and can't see holes in them atall. Audi said if they replace the entire top end again and i pay for it, they'll put in a warranty claim afterwards. I don't think so. Going to replace cam again, all the rockers this time. Falmouth Garage are to examine all the rockers and see if they can find these little oilways. Will also have all the hydraulic tappets replaced if they look in any way suspect, unless the cost is prohibitive. Haahaha as if it hasn't been already.
 
Rocker arms have tiny pin holes for the oil to go out (from the lifters)...
 
Fantastic thread FJ, I have registered just to keep my eye on your developments.

I hope you get the vibration and smoke issues sorted fully and I am going to have to stop myself thinking of Turbo and injector upgrades now lol

Pete
 
201002141225_118.jpg


Poor old dear is sitting in the yard with all her teeth pulled
 
It's depressing isn't it - mine spent ages like that just over a year ago :(
 
UUHH found marking on another lobe this time on the other inlet cam. Appears to be one of the old rockers again. Hopefully will be mostly together again at the end of the week, new tank fuel pump has arrived.
 
All dismantled all cams worn or marked not related to old rockers all pinhole oilways clear haven't checked hydraulic tappets first call into audi customer care
 
This is a superb thread by you FJ. So much so I had to join to join in.
I have and issue with the missing rocker right now.
The car started getting a 'dead pedal', fault code 0550 was retrieved, which points to fuelling,got injectors tested *** easiest to do and two injectors have been found to be worn.
When being changed the missing rocker was discovered with badly worn cams. I am just waitng for the cams in the post. I need to find a rocker supplier?
I've got to admit to falling for the extended service oil change, though this was always done by Audi to keep the log book looking good. Just reached 160K.
When it's all back together I'm hoping it's not the fuel pump as well.
----------------------------------------
2002 Audi A6 Avant Quattro AKE 160k stock
 
Last edited:
Buy Audi rockers, they are only about £5 each. Having got the engine to pieces this far, and as the hydraulic tappets are about £6.50 i'd suggest you do them as well. As your injectors are worn i'd say the pump is probably worn too, but unless you are going to push the performance like me it'll probably soldier on for a while. The problem is that if you have to remove it for a repair later you should take the front end off again, but having said that Celtic managed to get mine out without doing so, don't ask me how.
Did you find your rocker that came out, and the little valve stem cap that goes with it? If not in the head hopefully lying in the sump. If you already have the front of the engine off, replacing the water pump and oil pump is pretty cheap too, (If you have the facility to test your oil pressure, recieved knowledge is that you should be getting 0.8bar at idle, 2 bar at 2000rpm and a max of 7bar, if I’m correctly informed.) Again they're probably OK but will they last another 80k until the next cambelt change - you have to pay to get the front end off to do them if they go later.

I recommend tdiclub.com to you as well, i am contributing to a thread there in the "TDI Power Enhancements" forum called Audi A6 Avant 2.5 V6 TDI Quattro , there's some very knowledgeable guys there. Also VWAudiforum.co.uk are starting to get a few V6TDI postings too.

Haven't called the garage today, but i told them last week to do all the tappets anyway. Audi customer care called me to tell me they had recieved my email via the website but no one has called me since.
 
No need to remove the front for injector pump replacement. Its a bit fiddly but doable.
 
Engine is running again. Still need to do the fuel pump and service, check the oil pressure. Old hydraulic tappets not in perfect order, a few suspect ones, have not got full story yet. Audi responded saying they would not be offering any contribution as the car is too old. I have pointed out that its not the car, its the 7000mile old cams that have worn thats the issue. I await the next response.
 
New fuel pump fitted. Oil pressure checked as 4bar. MAF swapped as it was showing a temperature sensing fault. Mechanic says lacking power and making smoke (sounds like a torpedoed ship mid Atlantic). Checked all intercooler pipework and vacumn pipework no leaks. Apparently turbo actuator isn't moving much, and out on a test drive on board diagnostic shows only 150 odd kPa boost, we had 255 at dyno run. Wondering if N75 is dodgy, or turbo has a problem, although was looked at before.
Audi are not interested in a parts warranty, insist i must go through the garage that sold me the parts. Garage already has been told Skoda aren't interested. So last email was to Volkswagen Group UK.
 
As far as Falmouth Garage can tell, the turbo wastegate is jammed open. So it runs but smokes like crazy under any hint of load on the engine. Taking car back to Celtic this week so they can look at the turbo.
 
You probably mean the vanes are jammed in the low pressure position, your hybrid is a VNT I assume ?
What is the plan when the engine runs again, do a dyno test run to see how it compares to the previous session ?

B.R
 
Yes its the actuator thats jammed so the vanes aren't moving so i'm not getting the right levels of boost. Celtic supplied the turbo which they got from TurboDynamics, i'm assuming it'll have to go back to TD to get sorted or swapped.
When this gets fixed we are back to mapping again. Once we think we have got a smooth running non smoking engine then we'll get back on the dyno. I may cut to the chase and book some dyno time to get there quicker. I'm off to Germany mid April and would dearly love to have it all sorted by then so i can drive over.
 
that would be nice, that you can drive the car on your trip trough Germany.
When are you over there and when ? I am in Ingolstadt myself on 14 and 15 april.

B.R
 
Turbo at Turbo Dynamics, await diagnosis. My own diagnosis is that i should drink less Guinness on Paddys Day in Dublin, and being up for 36 hours before going on a 8 hour session is probably inadvisable. Its a hard job but someone has to do it.
 
TD says:
confirm that the VNT mechanism was jamming in operation due to damage to the veins themselves. What appears to have happened is the exhaust wheel itself has failed (fatigue most likely) and the pieces of this have impacted the VNT veins causing damage.

The turbine wheel itself is the original item fitted to the turbocharger from the factory and was not changed when we upgraded the units back in September last year, with this in mind we cannot repair the unit under warranty as the warranty covers our parts and labour and does not extend to the lifespan of original components…we can replace the turbine wheel with a brand new item and fit a replacement VNT mechanism as well as giving the unit a full overhaul

Sigh. Photos to follow at some point
 
you'd think they would have checked the whole assembly for serviceabilty when upgrading - bit poor IMHO :ermm:
 
That sounds a bit poor from td all right, what do Celtic think?
 
Hmmm, So if I understand correctly they kept the standard exhaust wheel... this being the major restriction of the stock turbocharger it seems almost like asking for disaster to strike. I know of a number of stock turbochargers on the V6 tdi to spit out the exhaust turbine (in chipped setups =+- 205-210bhp) Some had better luck after throwing out the cats, the little one that is sitting right behind the turbo creates high back pressures (certainly when chipped), putting extra mechanical and thermal load on the exhaust wheel. In my opinion a stock charger should be able to keep up till 210bhp with free flowing exhaust, but certainly not 260 bhp. You'll need to go bigger. Take a look at the stock BMW chargers that come on the 3.0d, making 218bhp they already have a bigger hot side.

To be honest, when upgrading my turbocharger, I would much rather turn to adapting a BWM 3.0d or similar charger to fit my 2.5TDI.
I like al the stories about the 360° thrust bearings and so on, but I already did some crazy things with oversized (but otherwise stock) chargers, running as much as 25psi of boost without breaking them.
My BX 1768cc diesel had an A6 C4 2.5 TDI turbo, making close to 155hp, driven verrrry hard for 150 000km, never had a problem (but very free flowing exhaust:)) Maybe I was just lucky.

I hope they will offer you a decent replacement at an affordable price, but I suggest you gather enough info about the size of the exhaust turbine you really need, otherwise you could end up in the same situation after a few months.

B.R

Stefan
 
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