2.5TDi V6 quattro Sport 180hp Turbochip

[adamss24]

Was the timing adjusted properly ? Also the camshafts pulleys were tightened before the cambelt has been adjusted ? By doing that it puts uneven pressure onto the cambelt and the static timing moves a tiny bit. Due to the low clearance of the valves, the pistons will hit the valves and the rocker arms will shatter first. Good it was found now and not later. I suggest you put a new cambelt and thermostat as well while at it ! If the timing is right there should be no more problems later on if the garrage know and have the locking tools + they worked before on this engine type !

 

[fjtwelve]

I'll pass that on. If the timing was out wouldn't all of the rockers get clobbered? So far we only have 1 exhaust rocker broken. I'm wondering if thats what Heathrow engines originally cocked up and thus why so many rockers broke after their "remanufacture". Would the timing error show on VAGCOM? Celtic did a full check but maybe it doesn't show up.

 

[fjtwelve]

Will you not need a bigger fuel pump too? I thought that was the limitation with the 2.5's.

There's a Fiinish guy on TDIClub.com whos just put a hybrid turbo cummins nozzles and a AKE pump on a 163hp engine, and got it up to 269hp and he thinks the fuel pump is now the limiting factor.

 

[fjtwelve]

On close inspection the rocker has not broken, it and the little cap that sits on top of the tappet have somehow jumped out hence the 2 pieces. Celtic have reseated the little buggers, changed the nozzles, and will have the engine back together and remapped midweek (turbo will be back today after Parcelforce remembered Celtic have moved). Either the rocker was not seated quite right or the tappet is sticking. I'm going to take it back into Falmouth Garage next week for them to have a look.

 

[fjtwelve]

Engine back together and running, currently at 1.6 bar boost and being limited by the fuel flow. Maybe i should have gone for the Race683s after all (stage 2?) but i didn't know i was going straight to the hybrid without the nozzles only stage. Still working on it, get car back tomorrow.

 

[adamss24]

How's the car now mate?

 

[fjtwelve]

Very different, almost like a petrol engine. Doesn't feel very torquey at bottom end. Very deceptively fast, horribly smooth at 100mph. No shove in the back, just relentless acceleration. Nice whine whistle off turbo. Some shuddering at idle occasionally. So not 100% there. Off work Mon and Tues so will get it to dyno at some point and then go back for more work. Suspect Race683s on the way.

 

[quattrojames]

Sounds promising :thumbsup:

 

[fjtwelve]

Down at the dyno today, and everything suddenly stopped. Rolled it off the dyno, checked around everywhere no obvious problem. Enter the AA man with his trusty can of carb cleaner, blast of that down the air intake and it started. We think there is a fuel supply problem somewhere rather than just nozzle sizes so back to Celtic tomorrow. Whether it is pumps pipes or shut off solenoids or what we don't know.

 

[adamss24]

Down at the dyno today, and everything suddenly stopped. Rolled it off the dyno, checked around everywhere no obvious problem. Enter the AA man with his trusty can of carb cleaner, blast of that down the air intake and it started. We think there is a fuel supply problem somewhere rather than just nozzle sizes so back to Celtic tomorrow. Whether it is pumps pipes or shut off solenoids or what we don't know.

Was the fuel pump overhauled on the engine ? The pump's controller is known to give-up the gost at about 150-200k so if you have vag-com, i would check the pump is getting power in engine's basic settings group 15 (you should see a steady 12V power supply) and make shure no fault codes are logged in the memory.

 

[fjtwelve]

Thanks for that, we'll check the power supply. There's no faults showing on Alan Jeffries diagnostic check, lets see if Celtic find any.

 

[fjtwelve]

Fuel pumps and system checked and no problems found. Fuel flow to pump and return are all ok. Now looking for a new/recon VP44 pump. Assuming that existing one is tired after 202000 miles.

 

[fjtwelve]

Have just ordered a set of Race 683s for £253 from Jeremy Lear at
Lear Automotive
Unit 24A , Earl Road
Rackheath Industrial Estate
Norwich , Norfolk , NR13 6NT
United Kingdom

t - 0044 1603 722597
e - lear.automotive@yahoo.co.uk

So if its the nozzles we have that covered and if its the pump , well we'll just have to do a stage 2. And if it isn't well I'll just go and trade it in for a motorbike.

 

[fjtwelve]

Dieselbob here we come.

 

[adamss24]

Dieselbob here we come.

How much you want for the other bosio nozzles ? Could supply a full set of injectors+ stock nozzles for you to rebuild (nothing wrong with them still on use on me car) just to save me the hassle or pop-testing them again ?? Let us know please... Regards, Chris.

 

[fjtwelve]

Lets wait until we get this sorted first, still don't know where the problem is yet or which is the best match of nozzles and turbo. But if i end up with surplus nozzles i'll be looking to sell for what i paid given that they'll be brand new.

 

[fjtwelve]

Bolts to front of car seized so very difficult to slide forward and get belts off to release pump. Have managed to get one side undone and release pump. Other side will need cut off drilled out and replaced. Joy

 

[fjtwelve]

Report from Diesel Bob is that pump is knackered, awaiting quote for both mechanical and electronic repairs.

 

[jwhat]

Thats crap, but at least you know what's wrong now. Will you be going for an upgraded pump or the same again?

 

[fjtwelve]

Already asked Diesel Bob about pump mods and his response was been there done that doesn't work. I'll be happy with a properly functioning standard pump as i'm only aiming around 250-260hp which is about the limit for the pump.
Mr Adamss24 has posted a link somewhere to an American site that claims modded VP44 for 1000hp but I haven't investigated.

 

[fjtwelve]

The Race 683s are in the post, he had quoted the wrong price ended up at £310 for the 6. Ominous silence on the pump price, not looking forward to that. Needless to say Jeremy had bought and sold a pile of new VP44s for a price measured in 100s not 1000s last month. He's in negotiation for a pile of AKE engines from Audi at the moment, wasn't clear if these were long or short block engines.

 

[fjtwelve]

Found out this morning the pump escaped the postal strike and appeared back yesterday, going on the car today get it back tomorrow. Not seen bill for pump - was about 580+VAT i think. Will there be some pleasure to match the pain of the bill? Will there be good news tomorrrow or have we chased the fault to the next problem? This seems to have been going on for ever but its only 3 months.

 

[fjtwelve]

Nozzles escaped the postal strike and arrived at home this morning, apparently the dog tried to eat them (he doesn't like postmen) but they have been retrieved without having to follow him around with a shovel.

 

[quattrojames]

He's in negotiation for a pile of AKE engines from Audi at the moment, wasn't clear if these were long or short block engines.

He could probably sell them all to members of this forum!

That £580 price, is that for a complete recon pump?

 

[fjtwelve]

That price is my pump rebuilt with new mechanical and electronic parts.

Car is better but not sorted. Will post more after the wekend driving it around but will be back into Celtic for more development next week with the race683s as an option.

 

[blackwagon]

Hello,

I just bought my 2002 A6 2.5 tdi quattro 180hp last week.
It's a beautiful car, RS6 interior, RS6 brakes, Bilstein coilover suspension,...
But then again, a lot of little problems came to my attention during the first 600 miles of driving.
25mpg when taking it reaaaaly easy, and it's a stickshifter, not an AT
not having the same amount of power each time when putting foot down at same revs/gear
I read the ECU's fault codes, 'N80, kurzschluss nach masse' which means'N80 injector needle lift sensor shorted permanently to ground'
The funny thing about it is I don't seem to have such a sensor !!! All injectors look exactly the same and not a single one of them has an electrical wire attached to it.

Maybe this could already explain part of my complaints.

I had bigger injectors on my previous car (2.5 tdi AEL engine), they a very healthy power increase, but the dual mass flywheel spoiled the fun by vibrating so badly.

I definately want to try bigger injectors on this one. My question is which ones I will try. The bosio's seem to be the easiest option, altough I don't know if the PP683 will be quite big enough.
Will you try the PP683 first and then the R683 ? This would give us a nice back to back comparison.
Rumor has it some DAF and Cummins nozzles would also do the job, however part numbers seem to be rather unobtainable And we need to be sure spray angles and size are the right match for our engines, otherwise it may be a short run


I am also thinking of getting my hands on a pair of BAU or BDG heads, the ones with the roller cams. Altough my cams are still fine I don't like the idea of grinding the lobes down over time.

From what I've seen I guess that the standard quattro exhaust is holding us a bit back on power. The exhaust can be separated under the gearbox, maybe interesting to pull a dyno run with free exhaust just to see if this is not the limiting factor that holds back the effect al the other mods you've made.

Hope to hear your findings soon


BR


Stefan

 

[fjtwelve]

The PP683s are in now, i have been told not to run the Race 683s in a stock engine. We discussed the chance that the exhaust cat could be blocked or damaged on Friday, and Celtic may try taking it off to see if makes a difference.
If you are getting 25mpg driving gently there is a problem somewhere unless all your driving is in town. How many miles has the car done?

 

[blackwagon]

Hello,

I think the cat is starting to create a bottleneck above 200hp even if it is new and not clogged.
In each case I will be removing my cats in the near future and building a nice free flowing exhaust

My engine has 130Kmiles on it and seems to be in good condition, I pulled the right bank valve cover to check the cam lobes, they were ok.
To be sure I should do the same at the left, maybe I have a broken rocker or bad lobe

How much power do you have now with the PP683's ? Did you notice a difference compared to the stock nozzles ?
I'm curious if they allow for decent power without smoking like a train.

B.R

Stefan

 

[adamss24]

Hello,

I think the cat is starting to create a bottleneck above 200hp even if it is new and not clogged.
In each case I will be removing my cats in the near future and building a nice free flowing exhaust

My engine has 130Kmiles on it and seems to be in good condition, I pulled the right bank valve cover to check the cam lobes, they were ok.
To be sure I should do the same at the left, maybe I have a broken rocker or bad lobe

How much power do you have now with the PP683's ? Did you notice a difference compared to the stock nozzles ?
I'm curious if they allow for decent power without smoking like a train.

B.R

Stefan

Stefan, what's stopping you from knocking them out with a steel rod or similar ? I did that on me a4 quattro v6 tdi and it passed the MOT with no problems whatsoever.

 

[fjtwelve]

Running the PP683s on a standard engine will need a remap - it might run without a remap but very badly. You should see a difference because more fuel = more power, but due to the combinaton of circumstances described above i jumped the planned PP683 only stage without finding out how much difference they made, sorry.One of the problems we have is we can't get it to smoke. This has led us down the fuelling route, firstly getting the pump done - it was shagged- and buying the Race683s to see if bigger nozzles will help. Celtic will be remapping the recon pump this week, they didn't have time to play with it after getting the pump back on. If that still doesn't work, we'll go to the bigger Race nozzles. We still have a sneaking suspicion there is something else wrong somewhere but we haven't sussed it yet. We haven't dismantled the rest of the fuel system to check it yet. We could have a filter blockage, air getting in, not enough flow forward from the tank but out of all the people who have posted V6 TDI tuning only one now says get a lift pump fitted. It wasn't on the agenda when i started as no one mentioned it before. It could be a sensor somewhere thats faulty without throwing a VAGCOM code. At 8 years and 200k miles a wire may be worn and fallen off/earthing somewhere. This could be a long hunt or something stupidly simple. Celtic are also going to ask around some of their agents that specialise in VAG cars to see if there any other suggestions.

 

[blackwagon]

From what I found about the VP44 pump I think that feeding it generously with diesel is the most important thing. When you look on the Dodge forums they discuss the most common faillures of the VP44, it all comes down to a poor fuel supply leading to a knackered pump. Cooling the fuel also seems to prevent problems (maybe we should install a fuel radiator beneath the car like the pump injector equiped VW/Audi's have). As far as I found our Audi's have an in tank pump that feeds the VP44. Wether it's capacity is big enough for 200+ hp I don't know. I found some reports of people finding the in tank pumps pickup was partly clogged with dirt, maybe a good and easy thing to check before risking to fry your new pump. Maybe it is wise to install a pressure gauge just before the VP44, when during the dyno session the pressure drops you can be sure the in tank pump isn't capable of doing it's job.

If you can get a dyno pull without the cats that would also prove to be interesting, I am almost sure the back pressure they create is robbing power. On my quattro there are clamps benath the gearbox which allow to disconnect the exhaust from the downpipes. So this should be pretty easy to do.


Next thing I should do is replace the thermostat, it sometimes can't get past 70°C, and when it does it takes forever to reach 90°C. I just found out that replacing this is about the same job as replacing the timing belt the clever engineer who thought of this ... !

B.R

Stefan

 

[fjtwelve]

Spoke to Celtic this morning when i dropped the car back. They are working their way through the fuel system this week. We may replace the rubber seals at the fuel filter, they harden with age. When i manipulate the filter assembly bubbles appear in the clear fuel line so thats one thing to clear up. They will also open up the fuel tank to check through the internal pumps and hoses.
I had the thermostat done at Christmas when the top end was done and all the timing belts were off. The engine now runs at a steady 90C unless i give it sustained abuse.
The AKE engine has a fuel cooler already, have a look at vagcat.com. I also want the other temperature sensors checked.
I don't think taking the CAT off is too difficult but we'll concentrate on the fuel system first.
The engine was running better today, the shudder at idle has almost disappeared over the weekend. Also felt a little more torquey, but the weather this morning was very damp and drizzly so much heavier air and cooler.

 

[fjtwelve]

Fuel filter replaced, new O ring as old one perished, no more bubbles in the fuel line. Checked CAT-clean, EGR-clean. Fitted Race683s, now smokes at idle, remap tomorrow.

 

[blackwagon]

Yesss, that sounds promising !
Was it the little O-ring on the filter itself, where the sensor with the jubilee clip is fitted ?

I am very curious about the power you will get, the VP44 would only be good for 220hp max, regardless of the injector sizes, I have a hunch that with those big nozzles you will be able to get more.

What kind of hybrid turbo are you running ?

I wish you a very succesful and satisfying dyno day

B.R

Stefan

 

[fjtwelve]

Which o ring? Good question was not there myself, will ask. Mechanic went out yesterday and said power was "scary" then it cut out again. Working on fuel tank pumps etc today.
The hybrid is a Turbo Dynamics reworking of my standard turbo, their reference is MD438:
Brief Specifications: -

Stage 1 – MD438

Hi flow GT20 compressor wheel, cnc machined compressor housing, 360 degree thrust bearing, cut back turbine blades, lightening of turbine wheel for faster ‘spool up’, modified V.N.T. turbine housing, uprated turbine seals. Other ‘blueprinting’ modifications. APPROX 280-300 BHP

 

[fjtwelve]

Frustration - email from Celtic saying car is really flying but then cutting out after a blast. Maybe we will have to get a lift pump in the tank to push larger flows forward to the filter so the VP44 doesn't run out of fuel.

 

[blackwagon]

Is it during the blast that it cuts out or after ?
If it is the lift pump that is falling short I would expect it to do so during the period you burn the most fuel.
A simple method would be running a hose that is connected to a T-piece in the feed line of the pump and fitting a pressure gauge to it, so you can read the feed pressure when driving.

I'm curious how much power your engine is making now

B.R

 

[blackwagon]

How is the beast running, any progress made yesterday ?

B.R

 

[fjtwelve]

Replacing the fuel filter which was 40000 miles old and putting the Race 683s in has fixed the fuelling problem in the engine. Celtic have done some development on the mapping this week, we can now use to 1.9bar boost comfortably because we can get enough fuel in to keep up, but its still cutting out after being driven hard. This means we are short of fuel. They reckoned it was quicker off the mark than the Chrysler 300C they'd just remapped to 315hp, really flying. We put the original map back in yesterday to see what happened. It goes like **** off a shovel but the black cloud visible from space over Cornwall is issuing from the back of my car. The torque is back, you can feel it itching to go from under your foot. It runs on a whiff of throttle. We were all pretty pleased to finally have got somewhere. Its also shuddering at idle again but i need to drive it around to see if the pump sorts itself out again. Apart from that its the first time for some while i've been wanting to get out and drive just for the enjoyment of it.

The focus now moves to getting the VP44 supplied with enough fuel to keep up with demand. So next week we get into the fuel tank to check the pipework etc and then remap again. I am hoping we find a problem and i don't need to get a lift pump, thats a complication i don't really want.

I will not get to the dyno for another couple of weeks due to travel commitments, but hopefully will have something to show for all the effort that Celtic have put in. I am very pleased with the effort and work they are putting in, if you're in the South West you should definitely be considering them for any tuning work you are doing. Recommended.

 

[blackwagon]

Nice to hear the car is proving to be very quick.

But be careful running that amount of boost, 1.9 bars is head stud stretching territory ! A few yeras ago I ****** up some high boost diesels, finding that above 1.6 bar the head gaskets started to leak. The multilayer steel gaskets weren't blown, the head bolts stretched under boost lifting the heads right of the gasket. You will need higher grade bolts and hardened washers to prevent problems.

You should also consider lowering the comprssion ratio to about 16.5 or 17/1 to keep peak cylinder pressures under control.

Did you have a look with vagcom how high the air temp after the IC is rising ?

Do you have a G-tech or some other device to measure 0-60mph and 1/4 miles times and speeds ?


Best regards.