Heel & Toe

A

adjturbo

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ok, this is a little bit embarressing but can someone please explain the whole heel & toe thing to me. I have heard about it and tried it a few times but when should u use it, y should u use it and is there anywhere i can go to learn how to do it?
I did a days rally drivin course at brans hatch a couple of yrs ago, it was excellent but didnt really learn to much in the time allowed.
Cheers
Adam
 
Carefulll Adam I'm one of the instructors there!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gifTime does not allow us to go into the more intricate areas of car control............but I am only in Kent and if at any time you are my area I would willlingly try to show you how to do it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/angel.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gifAltohugh in a S3 it is not easy /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif(but can be done) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gifas the fly by wire tingimy and computor do send out a conflict message so you have to be careful. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

PROBLEM 1
The computor knows that you are braking so it shuts down the fuel. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

PROBLEM 2
You NEED to blip the throttle with your heel and the fact that you are on the brake you can't because of Problem 1 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/froggie_red.gif

But I will show you. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/froggie_red.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/froggie_red.gif
PM me if your coming down.
 
cheers for that lyrac.i didnt mean it was the instructors fault, he was too busy tellin me to ease off the throttle cos we kept lookin at where we had been!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh_roll.gif
i gotta non-fly by wire TS so it should be possible /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I am down in kent a lot, my other half lives near sevenoaks. are u anywhere near there?
 
[ QUOTE ]
lyrac said:
Carefulll Adam I'm one of the instructors there!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gifTime does not allow us to go into the more intricate areas of car control............but I am only in Kent and if at any time you are my area I would willlingly try to show you how to do it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/angel.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gifAltohugh in a S3 it is not easy /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif(but can be done) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gifas the fly by wire tingimy and computor do send out a conflict message so you have to be careful. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

PROBLEM 1
The computor knows that you are braking so it shuts down the fuel. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

PROBLEM 2
You NEED to blip the throttle with your heel and the fact that you are on the brake you can't because of Problem 1 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/froggie_red.gif

But I will show you. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/froggie_red.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/froggie_red.gif
PM me if your coming down.

[/ QUOTE ]


Hi lyrac
I might not be understanding this very well, but you know you said "The computor knows that you are braking so it shuts down the fuel" therefor you cant blip the throttle, well are you sure about that. I have a 2002 S3 and was last night managing to brake and blip the throttle (clutch down) I wasn't doing it too well though as this isn't the easiest of tasks due to the brake peddle being set much higher then the throttle, but it worked none the less.
 
I'm not a driving instructor either & I can heel & toe no bother on an '02 S3
 
You can't do it in my 51 plate S3 - if you are braking it just cuts the throttle completely. Found out when trying to wear my brake discs in - if you have your foot on the throttle and touch the brake it just dies completely (and if you are braking and touch the throttle, nothing happens!)
 
Hi audi-girl

this is also the case on my '02 model.

- to heel & toe, you only need to blip the throttle when the clutch is depressed. This is simply to match the engine revs to the speed of the input shaft of the gearbox for the next gear to be engaged. During this, the engine is not driving the wheels at all.

- you can try it whilst changing down a gear & having the clutch depressed by
1. placing the ball of the right foot on the brake pedal
2. angling the right foot slightly (heel closer to the drivers door than the toe)
3. touching (blipping) the throttle by the instep of the right foot. This used to be done by the heel of the right foot in older cars - "hence heel & toeing".

- after a bit of practise, you can make a seamless downchange without upsetting the balance of the car.

- please note though that I'm not an instructor & I haven't tried it with high heels!

- regards
 

Well now that would be interseting to see you wearing High Heels!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Heeling and toeing is one of those things that it also depends on what speed you are doing when you wish to change down, the higher speed naturally requires more revs of the engine to accomplish as smooth transition of power after selecting the lower gear. Therefore you have to rev the engine higher to cope with the speed of the car, which therfore makes life even harder. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Oh don't worry I will show you when I see you. That applies to all of you should you need assistance. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/angel.gif Mind you I'm only human after all and we can all make mistakes can't we? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/angel.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh_roll.gif
 
Batty, isn't that double-declutching? I've been doing that a bit anyway - matching the engine rev's during a downchange using double declutching, but isnt heel/toeing doing this while braking (which you can't do in our cars as you can't use the throttle why braking)...... confooooosseed!!!!!

Lyrac, you'll have to demo it when we see you!
 
Hi Audi-Girl

Sorry for the delay - have been away for long weekend

I'm not old enough to remember double de-clutching (honest).

- But my dad tells me it's when you have to match the speed of the gearbox input shaft with the gearbox output shaft (times the gear ratio) in order to slot the gear dogs together comfortably.

- This is what they had to do before synchromesh was around.

- It was done by allowing the clutch to release whilst in neutral between gears & revving the engine to increase the speed of the input shaft, then depressing thge clutch again to engage the new gear.

I understand the technique may still be required with certain agricultural gearboxes... Maybe the Nova / Corsa boys have mastered it fully!!

- regards
 
oops!!

sorry if I offended those of you with the remnants of nova blood in your veins.

Seriously, I agree that the current 6 speed VAG box is not the slickest around. The best gearbox I know of is the old 4 speed RWD Ford box as fitted to mk2 Escorts, Cortinas, etc...
 
[ QUOTE ]
batty said:
oops!!

sorry if I offended those of you with the remnants of nova blood in your veins.



[/ QUOTE ]

Not offended...but credit where it's due...Nova's weren't always the car of choice for the local pimply penguins....the Nova wasn't so succesful in rallying for so long without having a few good features!


[ QUOTE ]


Seriously, I agree that the current 6 speed VAG box is not the slickest around. The best gearbox I know of is the old 4 speed RWD Ford box as fitted to mk2 Escorts, Cortinas, etc...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah...nice 'box (ooh, er!) as was the Pug 205 'box...

But the Honda Integra Type-R gearchange / gearbox is incredible...as is the S2000.
Precise, slick, short throw and about as much feedback through your left arm as an S3 manages through your whole body!
 
[ QUOTE ]
Ess_Three said:
[ QUOTE ]
batty said:

I understand the technique may still be required with certain agricultural gearboxes... Maybe the Nova / Corsa boys have mastered it fully!!

- regards

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, the Vauxhall F10/F13 Nova gearboxes are slick enough to be able to change up or down without using the clutch at all...and no rev matching / double clutching.

Back in the early 90's when I was hillclimbing / trackdaying my well sorted SR Nova I used to power shift up the box without a touch of clutch...and bang it back down with the same care free attitude!

Not exactly kind on the 'box or the car...but fast...and the 'box would allow it.
Try that with a current VAG gearbox!

My Nova's hybrid F10/F13 gearbox ranks way better than any VAG 'box I've owned...only just behind the Honda Integra Type-R for feel and speed. Hardly agricultural.

Now i'm not a fan of the whole Nova / Corsa current styling thing (I sold mina as they started getting into the hands of the muppets) but credit where it's due...the Vauxhall gearboxes of those cars were sweet!

[/ QUOTE ]

got to agree with you. i managed to drive 200 miles in my sis's nova with a broken clutch cable and its easy to change without. they're also really strong boxes.

i hate the box on my golf vr6, you can't do quick changes without beating the synchromesh, so now i don't have any synchromesh left!!!
 
[ QUOTE ]
lyrac said:
Carefulll Adam I'm one of the instructors there!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gifTime does not allow us to go into the more intricate areas of car control............but I am only in Kent and if at any time you are my area I would willlingly try to show you how to do it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/angel.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gifAltohugh in a S3 it is not easy /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif(but can be done) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gifas the fly by wire tingimy and computor do send out a conflict message so you have to be careful. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

PROBLEM 1
The computor knows that you are braking so it shuts down the fuel. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

PROBLEM 2
You NEED to blip the throttle with your heel and the fact that you are on the brake you can't because of Problem 1 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/froggie_red.gif

But I will show you. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/froggie_red.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/froggie_red.gif
PM me if your coming down.

[/ QUOTE ]

do you race/rally at all (or are you kust an instructor)?

go on spill the beans, how do you get an S3 to do it? do you have to release the brake as you blip the throttle, and quickly re-apply it?

whoever designed the S3 needs shooting for putting this thing on it! although i suppose its good to have if your throttle stuck open!
 
[ QUOTE ]
batty said:

Seriously, I agree that the current 6 speed VAG box is not the slickest around. The best gearbox I know of is the old 4 speed RWD Ford box as fitted to mk2 Escorts, Cortinas, etc...

[/ QUOTE ]

Even Better when it was the RS 2000 type box with all of the right ratios and was called a "rocket box"!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/1luvu.gif Now that was a delight to drive and was often used and as smooth as silk /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush2.gif for "clutchless changes" oh what a tool!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/groovy.gif
 
I have done some experiment with this and have found that
if you brake it will indeed cut the throttle (safety feature) if you however keep your foot on the brake and blip the throttle it does work.
I beleive the main problem with modern boxes is really related to the synchro's.
older boxes could be changed with less effort and worry, just match the revs and away you went. now it is a little more difficult,
 
all vag boxes are poor anyway and will eat their synchro over time, so heel and toe braking means you don't need synchro. don't think you'll increase wear on the box by doin it, would've thought you'd help it actually.

there's a 1.5 sec delay, where you can blip the throttle whilst on the brakes, isn't there? but i've heard the system takes time to recover?
 
On my 2001 S3 (225) heel&toe works just fine - I use it all the time - If you hit the brakes whilst on the throtle, power will be cut, but if you are on the brakes and then pick up the throtle it's fine - I also use this (with left foot braking) to clean my discs when I get back from holidays.


 
just lookin at your sig pic 'djmotorsport' and thats not an f1 ferrari is it? its an f3000 car isn't it?
 
As DJ says, you can press the brake pedal first and then use the throttle without it cutting out, but pressing the brake whilst accelerating shuts the throttle down for about 1-1.5s
 
[ QUOTE ]
djmotorsport said:
It's my car from this year FPA series - Taken at La Source (the hairpin to the right after the F1 grid) at Spa.

The guy who helped me get a seat in the car is a huge Ferrari fan.


[/ QUOTE ]

nice, what sort of budget you need to race them?

i'm lookin at the seat cupra championship next year...gotta raise some serious sponsorship though!!
 
Last season was £45k + vat but that included Monza and Spa - Don't know what the costs for 2004 will be yet. The front runners tested extensivly, which probably added another £10-15k.

Car is rumoured to be 350BHP (up from 275BHP) next year. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/goofy.gif

I did half a season last year, but the mortgage wont take any more, so it looks like it's karts for me in 2004......


DJ
 
[ QUOTE ]
djmotorsport said:
Last season was £45k + vat but that included Monza and Spa - Don't know what the costs for 2004 will be yet. The front runners tested extensivly, which probably added another £10-15k.

Car is rumoured to be 350BHP (up from 275BHP) next year. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/goofy.gif

I did half a season last year, but the mortgage wont take any more, so it looks like it's karts for me in 2004......


DJ


[/ QUOTE ]

you paid for it yourself pretty much then?

what are your aims in motorsport?
 
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