BOSE Replacement / Concert HU feed to a PowerAmp

MarkyB

MarkyB

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I have an MY01 S3 with a Concert HU, BOSE Speakers, and as of sometime early next week a Dension DMP3-A Jukebox in the boot - replacing the SONY MD Changer.

* Was planing to get a SONY CD Changer, but saw the Dension DMP3-A and knew I had to get me one! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif The Dension DMP3-A uses the SONY CD Changer Bus, so I can use the cables I've already run from the dash to the boot for the SONY MD Changer /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

http://www.dension.com/index.dw?oldal=2&nyelv_id=2

After having read the epic DIY SubWoofer thread on the A3/S3 Forum, it's got me thinking about upgrading the speakers on my car. I'd like to improve the sound, but keep the Concert HU - my car is parked on the street, so any upgrades have to be 100% stealthy.

Q1: How painful is it going to be to replace the BOSE Speakers? Can I leave the posh looking grills in place and swap out the speakers behind? I'm guessing that installing some better quality cable would also be a good idea.

Q2: Is it possible to slave a Power Amp from a Concert HU to run the front/rear/sub - I realise that this is a less than optimal solution to replacing the HU, but stealth is the top priority.

Yeah, I know if I really cared about ICE I'd move somewhere safer with a Garage like Fort Knox, but that's not a viable option at the moment /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Mark - Newbie ICE Monkey
 
Hi Mark
The Bose setup consists of Standard Concert HU, programmed via VAGCOM for Bose.
The HU has front & rear pre outs feeding a 4 channel Bose amp located in the offside boot cubbyhole.
The Bose amp feeds all the cabin speakers, but is setup for 2 ohm speakers. The speakers are typically Bose, the ones in the rear are only 4 inch drivers, mounted in plastic spacers to fill the 6.5" mounts.
The 4 channel amp has special Bose spactial equalisation, and provides 1 front & 1 rear low frequency pre-out to the 100w sub/amp. Sub is inside the tupperware sub enclosure.
You can't just replace the speakers, you'll have to replace the amp as well.

Best bet would be to take a new feed off the HU to a new 4 channel amp feeding new cabin speakers. You can get the pre-out feed adapter from CarAudioDirect (it's the yellow Blaupunkt one and works with all Concerts, Blaupunkt or Panasonic), it's £14.99 and gives you standard RCA's from the mini ISO connection o the back of the HU.

The new cabin speakers will fit behind the "posh looking grilles". But you will need adapter rings, which you can make out of 12mm MDF. You can fit 6.5" rears or even 8" or 6x9's. You are then left with the sub, which you can still use or upgrade (with one of my stealth subs).
I found the Bose sub doesn't sound as good when not being used with the Bose system. I'm guessing the Bose 4 channel amp is doing something clever with the pre-out feed to the sub amp. I found if you drive it with standard RCA's it doesn't have a crossover so tries to play full range sound.
My recomendation is you've got to replace all the Bose components, as they don't work well with aftermarket components.
Finally you need to get the HU reprogrammed for non Bose use, via someone with a VAGCOM or Audi dealer.
To be honest the Concert HU is the weak link, so strongly recommend getting something decent as the source, something like the Alpine 9812RR, which has the red illumination & 60watts x 4, so you wouldn't necessarily have to add a 4 channel amp.

If you are dead set on keeping the HU, then it's a lot of work to install the amp, replace the speakers, replace the wiring etc. I've heard good reports from owners who have just upgraded the HU on the Bose system (with the right adapter), or go for a new sub/sub amp, which will give you more bass, and take the strain off the cabin speakers.

No simple options I'm afraid.
 
Hi Andy,

thanks for the detailed information, I suspected that replacing the BOSE speakers was going to be a stumbing point - wish I'd not ordered that option now! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Will probably go for replacing the all the BOSE Speakers (quite fancy one of your custom Subs!), rejig the Concert back to "standard" audio mode and replace the 2.1 amp in the boot for the sub and rear speakers. Although I'll save this project for when the weather gets warmer and drier!

Q3: Front Bose Speaker arrangement - is there a BOSE speaker behind the grill next to the door-release latch as well as at the bottom of the door? I've put my ear next to one, but can't tell if there's anything there or not.

Thanks,

Mark.
 
Yes there is, so you have 2 way components in the front, although you don't seem to get the level of clarity from the front of the Bose setup as you do from a bulk standard Concert or aftermarket system. Where I've replaced the HU in this setup you get most of the stereo/treble from the front of the car. With the Bose setup you bizarrely seem to get more treble from the rears.
 
I'm trying to figure out a budget for the BOSE replacement project. I've had a look at what speakers should fit in my car and am thinking along the lines of an Alpine ALP-MRPF240 multi-channel AMP with a pair of ALP-SXS1357 Component Speakers in the front, and a pair of ALP-SPS1329S Speakers in the rear. Maybe replace the speaker cabling if it isn't going to be a complete b*stard.

I'm not sure about how to hook up a sub to that lot, do multi-channel amps have an additional feed for one of your bespoke A3/S3 subs?

* My youngest brother is a bit of an ICE fiend, but has leanings towards MAXPOWA levels of tweaking, so I'm after practical advice from someone who's mature enough to know better /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Mark.
 
You need to go for bigger speakers in the rear, 6.5" to match the aperture in the panel, or 8" oversized. You can get decent bass out of the rear panels as there's loads of room behind them. ALP-SPS1729S, or if you can, go for components, and fit the tweeters higher up on the rear pillars where the panel meets the headlining panel. I found treble lacking in the rear as the speakers are very low down. I bought a pair of Alpine SCS-1756's on ebay for £30 and these made a big difference, compared to the Alpine coaxial's that were in there. Have a look at the ALP-SXS1757's.
On the amp front, most good quality amps have an RCA output for an additional amp, the Alpine you're looking at has them and they're non fading, so are unaffected by the fader setting, which is ideal for a sub.
You will need to install new speaker cable, rather than try to hack into the Bose loom. This also means you can put it all back relatively easily when you come to sell. The rears are easy, but you might want to tap into the fronts as you need to feed the cable through the flexible trunking for the door.
I would seriously consider upgrading the HU, this will give you a much better source, and also a sub out fader.
 
Ahh, didn't realise the rears were 6.5" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif I'll add the ALP-SPS1729S to the shopping list.

They say "never say never", so I won't rule out replacing the HU at some stage, although I'd prefer to start by replacing the speakers + use a quality amp and see how I feel about the sound afterwards.

When I first got my S3 I tried using the SONY MD/RDS Headunit that I had in my old car c/o the BOSE wiring adapter, but didn't think much of the sound. I opted to keep the Concert and add an MD Changer in the boot instead - so I know that I wouldn't be happy with just changing the HU, the BOSE Speakers have got to go!

re: Sub replacement - so I can add an Amp to drive a new Sub later on, providing I get a decent multi-channel Amp for the main speakers that has an RCA output.

Sounds promising, I can split this project up into main speaker replacement (with no sub) and then sub replacement /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

re: Front speaker wiring - is that run from the Amp in the rear inside the door-sill channel and then up and through the trunking into the front doors? It's been a while since I've removed the interior trim and can't remember what was in there /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

re: LHS F/R Speaker Wiring - I guess that the LHS speaker wiring is fed behind/under the rear seats? Is it obvious how to get to it?

Thanks for all the invaluable information /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif

Mark.
 
You'll laugh when you see the Bose rear speakers.
Yes the wiring to the rears is obvious when you take the rear panels out. The esaiest way to remove the panels is to remove the door sill trim, by prising it up in the middle.
Remove the bases of the back seats, by flipping them up and then squeezing the stirrups towards each other to unhook them from the chassis. Put the backs of the seats down. You should be able to release the metal clips that hold the panel on, by starting at the seat belt reel (where the door sill trim meets the rear panel). Work your way up, you have to be quite brutal without ripping the panel. The hardest clips are the ones along the bottom of the window. I found using a pry bar quite helpful. You may find some of the clips come away from the panel, but these can be glued back on with araldite or hot melt.
The front speakers do run from the amp in the rear. I'm not sure how the loom runs, but it should follow the rear speakers, then split off and run along the door sills.
Good Luck, Andy
 
Be careful at the top of the rear panel, my local installer found themselves paying out £450 for a new panel after they ripped the vinyl at the top of mine where they'd obviously pulled too hard from the bottom (3 month old car, I was very pleased I can tell you).

I recommend you follow AndyMac's suggestion of using a proper tool, much cheaper than the panel!.
 
Yes, it's the one in the middle at the top, which is trickiest, using a pry bar, you can attack it from the top rather than using the panel itself to pull it free. I learnt this the hard way and did manage to slightly rip the top of the panel on my wifes car, but you can't see it with the panel back in place.
 
Right-oh. I've had a peek round the back of the rear interior trim panel, and I see what you mean about the teeny-tiny BOSE Speakers - no wonder my passengers complain about not being able to hear anything other than the sub-woofer in the back!

Q: Any tips on where to start to remove the front interior trim panels? I'd like to have a look at how the front speakers are wired up, but anticipate having to to battle with the dread spring-clips again.

Q: Where could I house a new Amp? I suspect that it would be easiest to bolt it to the back of the rear passenger seats. Or could I squeeze it into the RHS cubby hole in the boot where the BOSE Amp lives? Am a bit nervous due to the proximity of the fuel-tank.

I'm considering going for an all-in-one 4.1 Amp such as the Kenwood KAC-PS650D (WxHxD 283 × 58 × 350 mm, 5.7Kg) as it'll take less space, need less wiring and hopefully make balancing the speakers easier /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Mark.
 
Your best location for the amp is behind the rear speaker panels, as it is completely hidden, and quite easy to do, and all the wiring is hidden away as well, see photo below. You can install the biggest amps in this space as there is loads of room once you've removed the black polystyrene spacer. You only need to drill 3 holes in the inner panels for mounting the amp. Just be careful when manoevouring the amp in position as you can easily knock a dent in the outer bodywork, which will be visible from the outside. I usually stick some dynamat up inside the panel to stop this happening.
The front door cards are really easy to remove, no spring clips this time. There are 2 visible screws at the top of the card at each end of the window. The main bolts are behind the plastic panel under the grab handle. This panel can be removed by pushing it downwards and it should slide out in an circular motion. Remove the 2 bolts behind it. Lift the whole panel up and out. It will still be attached via wires for the speakers and lecky windows. These can be easily unplugged, or left in place if you're just having a look.
The most difficult job is wiring in the power from the battery to the cabin, for the amp(s). When you do this it is well worth routing through a second power cable at the same time if you're gonna put in a sub amp later. This is better practice than running 2 amps off the same cable. Just remember to remove the fuse on the cable you're not using!
There are excellent instructions on routing the cable through the bulkhead on the ICE forum under "Power Cable", it involves removing the airbox and glovebox.
I'd leave the Bose amp where it is and certainly wouldn't want to be drilling near the fuel tank.
 
i've run a 2AWG power cable, which has the capability of running several amps, depending on their rating. i had a bitch of a time getting it through the bulkhead, but i would have thought that using two 4 or 8AWG cables would be easier. there's no gain either way, so i don't see how the pair of cables could be a "better practice"?

either way, running cable that will allow future upgrades is a good idea, because it's sod's law that when you go to run another cable at a later date, something will break! best not give it the chance!

 
It's better practice because:
1. You have separate fuses
2. I've experienced very slight engine interference problems when running 2 amps off the same power line, especially when one is running a high power sub. It makes no logical sense, but that's what happened. Thought it was an earth problem, but after hours of fiddling around with earth straps, I found the whine went away if I disconnected the sub amp, so I powered the sub off a jump lead to see if this cured the problem, which it did, so I ran a second lead. Bizarre.
 
Cheers guys, yet more valuable information. I'm a big fan of the "measure twice, cut once" school of doing things right, so this is all getting filed away for reference.

Famous last words, but I'm hoping to keep a diary (text and digi-photos) of what/how I do the upgrade so I can give something back to the ICE forum /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Top-Tip on where to stash the Amp - although it looks like it's behind the LHS rear panel rather than the RHS panel nearest where the BOSE Amp lives - would the existing speaker cables reach that far, or would it be a case of splicing some more cable in?

From reading the other posts on the forum about engine whine pickup on the speakers. I'm considering wiring my own harness from the headunit to the AMP and from the HD MP3 Changer headunit - the CD changer and line-out connections are on the same ISO block at the back of the Concert Headunit. Which reminds me, any thoughts on where I can get one of those ISO Blocks (female) and the connection pin thingies? I've asked in a couple of electrical component shops, but got blank looks. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Mark.
 
Hi Mark
You can mount the amp either side. The photo shown was one I did for a mate for an upgraded sub, so we had to tap into the sub loom, which is on the RHS.
Good thinking about the wiring. I'd use all new wiring if you can, the Audi low level wiring is the worst I've ever seen. It has pre-outs unshielded, audio in from the CD changer unshielded, I'm amazed they can get away with this mickey mouse quality on a luxury vehicle.
The Concert uses mini ISO connectors (very helpful). You can get mini-ISO to standard RCA's from CarAudioDirect, they are listed under Blaupunkt but work with Matsushita HU's as well. They're about £15 each. There are three of these on the rear of the HU, they all clip together, so you can just use one for the pre-outs and keep the other 2 as is. Here's a photo of the pre-out-RCA adapter.
 
I have spent this weekend stripping My A3 and fitting an Andy Mac Sub and 4 channel amp to run it and my rear pheonix gold components. the problem I have is, i have the standard concert stereo and i am not sure where to pick up a remote lead for the amp - any suggestions?

Also on top of my standard tuppaware sub was a small plastic box about the size of a PDA with several plugs going into it, trial and error unplugging various connections resulted in realising it was a small amp . No suprise there, only that it cut out the front speakers when disconnected and i thought on a standard concert set-up the amp ran only the rear speakers and the sub?

 
Hi Leddy
Good to talk to you yesterday, sorry I was a bit spaced out but I was travelling back from Tignes in France (snowboarding) and was asleep on the coach to the airport.
You can either pick up the remote from the HU (see line-out section on pic below), or from the loom going to the old sub (probably easier), see pic below.

The small amp you refer to is a surprise. I've never seen this before. In the 6 different A3/S3's I've worked on, the standard Concert setup runs the front speakers off the HU. The amp for the sub and rears is actually inside the sub box. Can you post a pic of this amp?
Cheers, Andy
 
Hi Andy,

Thanks for the diagram, very helpful.

I should be able to get a pic on in a couple of days as i will be stripping it all back out in a couple of nights to finish it off.
 
Leddy
the Connector pin out above for the sub is the male sub side, so to pick up the remote on from the loom it is the reverse, i.e. bottom left (with the locating cut out at the top).
Does that make sense?
 
Just another thought, i am planning to run RCA's to my 4 channel amp for the rear speakers using a blaupunkt style adapter for the rear speakers, then split them to the bridged 3&4 channel for the sub. this is because the Concert has no sub channel and my amp has a built in crossover.

is this the best way to do it?
 
That's definately not an amp. Judging by the connections it looks like a car kit interface for a handsfree phone. If it's hooked into the sound system, that could be why you lost the front speakers when disconnecting some of the wires.
Any luck with the Alpine amp?
Definately set the crossover frequency at about 80Hz. (50Hz is way too low, even for normal 10 or 12" woofers).
If you are unable to fade it means you've hooked into the front pre-outs, so try swapping them over.
Good Luck, cheers, Andy
 
Here's the mini-ISO connector block, with the colour coded sections (they just slide apart), but it sounds like your's is radically different.
 
Hi Andy,

The Alpine amp was actually worse!!! Even more hiss with the engine off and alternator whine with the engine on. i tried a different earth point, i tried running the RCA's seperate to the power and swapping the pre-outs all without success.

Pretty sure i am connected correctly as this fading issue was there when my rear components where connected without the amp to the rear speaker connections. Have booked my car into a local car hifi specialist as i am beginning to suspect the pre-outs from the head unit, they are going to try a different head unit and see if it makes a difference. I think this is worth 1/2 hour investigation by a 3rd party as my sanity couldn't take stripping everything out again!!!
 
That's really wierd, although having quite a bit of experience with Audi car stereos, nothing surprises me anymore. I've never had this issue with Alpine amps, so it sounds like the HU. I've had interference issues on a Concert HU (Panasonic/Matsushita model, aptly named) without any additional amps, but that was quite subtle alternator whine from the CD changer. Turned out to be a combination of bad earthing on the HU and sh*te Audi pre-installed bus lead.

The only similar thing I've had recently was a Concert developing distortion and background noise (like a detuned radio) after about 20 minutes from cold, only on the rear line-outs (front speakers OK). The only solution was to run the rears & sub off the front line-outs, & lose the fader. Very strange. I think it was possibly a sign that the rotary knob/controller was shot. I know others on the forum have had volume problems (volume shooting up for no reason), so it could be the same sort of fault but on the fader, as the source signal is the same until it is split by the fader and fed to the separate line-outs.

Your problem has to be earth related and I'd start with anchoring a couple of big fat earth straps to the big bolt on the back of the HU. Keep them as short as possible.
With the glovebox out there are plenty of good earth points to screw them to.
I know your car is a really late model, so they may have changed a few things. Is your HU a Matsushita (made in Japan) model?
Hopefully the experts will be able to track it down, but I fully understand your frustration (been there many times). I've had more wierd problems with Audi's than any other make. I've installed Alpine HU's with additional amps in both our Audis, with new wiring, and never had any problems. They just work perfectly. I've even burnt a CD with silence on it to make it easier to identify engine noise on Audi's. Play this on the Alpines at full volume and there is zero interference.
What I don't understand is that you are using proper RCA cabling, by passing the Audi loom, so you've done everything correctly.
Let us know how they get on with it.
Cheers, Andy
 
Guys, some thoughts for you...

I've redone the audio on my A6 to a full 9-channel Genesis/Focal system (bi-amped fronts and rears, 10" sub) and had several problems when installing.

Firstly, there were some serious impedance differences between earthing points at the front and rear of the car. Basically the earth at the front was much better than the earth at the back, and when the amps were earthed at the back I got bad alternator whine and a low-level hiss which was general RF/EM interference.

Running a long 4-guage earth strap from the amps in the back to the earth at the front of the car cured most of the problem. We found that the best solution was to earth the head-unit to the same point as the amplifiers. Also, make sure the earthing point is fresh and has no protective grease over the top!!!

Secondly I found the RCAs I was using weren't entirely suitable for a car environment. Other than designing cocktails, I actually part-own a hi-fi company manufacturing for the high-end domestic and pro markets (CD players, amps, cables). The technology we use in the domestic arena does not include screening cables, but does incorporate an RF/EM interference absorption system. I thought this would be up to spec in a car, but was very very wrong!!

Essentially, the RCA cable in a car has to be at least double-screened, and should also use METAL RCA plugs !!! The plastic plugs commonly found DO NOTHING in terms of screening the cable. Find an RCA cable, or get one made (I can help here!!) with metal plugs.

Lastly, I found that the headunit (SatNav plus system) in the car outputted a very low voltage (around 1.5V) to the RCA jacks. This low voltage allows more interference to enter the signal down the RCA cable and so may induce alternator whine etc.. I used a 'line driver' to boost the RCA output voltage to 5V, and this in combination with the screening of the cable now eliminates ALL noise.

Like Andy, we have various test CDs to check for noise rejection etc - everything works great now.

Of course, as Andy has said it could well be the headunit. It could be the output transistors have fried or are wearing out, and this will lead to increase noise and distortion. You've done the right thing by separating RCA cables from power. See what happens with the 3rd party headunit - if the problem is still there then it's either going to be an impedance drop (earthing problem) or the RCAs.

Hope a little of that helps!

Tone /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
 
Sound advice Tone (forgive the pun).
Ensuring the quality of the RCA's is always good practice and good advice on the metal plugs, as most do come with plastic. Interference on the RCA's is normally quite subtle though, so deinatly sort out the earth problem first otherwise the improvement in RCA's will be wasted.
Cheers, Andy
 
My car went in today for testing and turns out it was the head unit after all.

They wired up a bottom of the range Pioneer cd head unit and all was silent with no interferance at all!!! I can't believe this is a standard fault with the Concert stereo as others have done the same upgrade as me with no problems. Must be duff pre-outs.

All should be fine soon though as i have the gorgeous Alpine 9812rr on order /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/1luvu.gif

Should be here Friday so this weekend is now tied up!!!

Do you know what wiring adapters i'll need to fit this head unit (butchering the loom behind the head unit is turning out to have been a bad idea). /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif

 
Good news Leddy, it is the only way forward.
You shouldn't need any adapter. The power on the Alpine is standard ISO, and you have already bypassed the rear line outs/sub loom. You'll need a second RCA cable to your amp, as you have a non fading sub pre-out on the Alpine, which allows you to control the sub level independent of the cabin speakers.
Front speakers will plug straight in as they are standard ISO as well.

Good luck, you're gonna notice such a difference.
Cheers, Andy
 
don't forget the controversial facia adapters to fill the gaps either side of the HU. Personally I think they look fine, far better than the slab faced Concert heap of junk....don't get me started.
 
Not sure if this helps but here's what i've just done.

Here's what I had. Concert HU, Bose, 6 Disc Autochnager.

Out came the HU and CD autochnager. I've fitted a Clarion 838 Head Unit (Includes Mp3 disc) (which illimnates perfectly to match) Clarion 6 Disc autochanger and a 10" sub for the boot. The original car speakers are still being driven by the Bose amp but the Sub has it's own.

The difference is spectacular!

Only concern now is the Audi / Bose speakers holding up
 
I have now replaced the head unit with my new Alpine and the difference is noticable to say the least!!!

Having the abilty to control the sub seperately significantly improves the sound stage, as does the extra juice being pumped to my Focals at the front.

have had a few problems with the install though, I can't seem to get an ignition feed from the Audi loom. The only feeds I have are marked CAN L and CAN H, on the standard Concert unit these seem to control the illumination fader and the ignition, problem is this only kicks out 2.5v and isn't enough to fire up the Alpine.

The only way i could get it to power up is to connect the ignition wire on the Alpine loom to the permanent live, less than ideal as this morning my battery was flat because of the permanent current being drawn by the Head unit. A clumsy work around is to remove the radio fuse overnight!!!

This could be down to having a 2002 A3, as AndyMac knows, the connections on the back are different to older concert units. Could it be that the CAN H/L are just sending a signal to the standard head unit to switch on and off rather than a 12v current?

Also my concert used to stay on until my key was removed from the ignition, I don't know if older units did this?

the other problem is i am not sure what to do with the power supply to the boosted aerial, does this just need a 12v feed?

The new Alpine does look good though!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/1luvu.gif
 
James,

Check the wiring diagram for your new HU. You normally have to swap red / yellow to ensure the feed is set correctly - It's an Audi feature!

When you fix this you should find that the unit comes on and off with the key and your battery won't be dead.
 
Hi Leddy

Yes as Anito suggests, you just need to swap the red & yellows, some HU's have a switch on the back to do this, but I don't think the Alpine does. I guess you are losing all your pre-sets when you take the fuse out.
The aerial just needs the Autoleads aerial adapter which provides a separate feed that you can hook up to your remote on.
Looks good though, all that hard work has hopefully proved worthwhile.
Cheers, Andy
 
Okay, but that would put the ignition lead on a permanent live and the permanent live on CAN H?

 
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