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Thread: New car choices: ??? v 3.0TDI v 3.0TDI v 3.0TDI?!?!?

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    BahnStormer77's Avatar
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    New car choices: ??? v 3.0TDI v 3.0TDI v 3.0TDI?!?!?

    I'm in the market for a new car: due to familly, I'm looking for an A6 Avant.

    Significant prefrence for quattro and would also like to have an auto (first one ever!!). Usual perks like high end satnav, Sline, Xenons (standard on S-Line) and Leather are all significant selling points.

    MPG is not that much of an issue, but I'd prefer not to get spanked at the pumps and then again for another 5 tank-fulls (£400) by the tax man every year, so I am conscious about the road tax. Since there are no 2.0T quattro's (?) and due to the quattro pre-req, I'm likely to end up with a 2.7TDI or 3.0TDI.

    Not afraid of high mileage if car is in good condition and has been well maintained/serviced.

    Budget is about £12k-£15k and there seem to be a few 2005-2007 cars in that range.

    Questions:

    1) There seems to a glut of 3.0TDI's compared to to the 2.7TDI's and no significant price premium: why?!?!?

    2) If I do go with the 3.0TDI, there seem to be several specs: 221bhp, 229bhp (233PS) and 236bhp. What is the difference?

    I am researching at the moment (starting with PARKERS)and it would seem the 221bhp was the early lead out model, 229bhp the upgrade (is that just a remap or was there a significant rework) and then 236bhp is the response to the emissions level tax (again just a remap or is this a different engine?)?

    Are there any peculiarities that I need to be aware of?

    Tax bands seem to be £245, £260 and £445 for each engine.

    From what I can see, the only one to really avoid is the 229bhp model after 23 March 2006 (£445 tax pa?), aside from that, they're all fair game?
    Last edited by BahnStormer77; 3rd September 2011 at 11:04.
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    BahnStormer77's Avatar
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    If I'm after a quattro other than the 3.2FSI, it really is the 3.0TDI, isn't it?

    Probably just going to try for a pre-Mar2006 233PS....
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    once i've sold mine im looking for the exact same car mate..... you've obviously a better chance of landing a 3.0 tdi with spec than a 2.7.... all 3.0's were quattro i believe whereas i think 2.7 was an expensive option....therefore rare!! I found a nicely specced 2.7 the other day, sunroof, nav,xenons plus loads and loads of other stuff.....the 2wd just puts me off though, total bummer after you've had quattro!

    good info on the bhp, I wasn't aware of the difference.... might be worth checking a bit further though, PArkers are notorious for duff info including their prices!! (dealers spend hundred on Glasses and CAP and Parkers is £2.99? comon it aint that accurate :D) - anyway, on the later A4' 3.0TDI they introduced TDV engines which developed 233bhp with a lower tax band too!! if that engine is in the A6 too then theres a good chance the tax wont always be in the top bracket...check it out
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    I'd considered the A5 3.0TDi Quattro S-Line as an alternative to a new S3, but in the end I couldn't find the right 2nd hand A5 with the spec / condition / mileage so got bored and bought another S3.

    Wasn't aware of all the 3.0TDi differences, all the A5's were rated at 5.9sec 0-60 and 231PS, but that may just be Audi's system not putting up the right info.

    It's a very good engine, and I tried a 2.7 and it did seem quite lacking by comparison (hard to believe 10% cubic capacity can make such a difference). Personally it's a no brainer, 3.0 every time as they are more plentiful, parts are likely to be cheaper due to volumes, and I think its the more obvious resale choice for later on. In combination with a manual gearbox the 3.0TDi works very well, less so with the auto box. I drove a 530d auto (bosses car), and the auto box in the BMW is SO much sharper than the Audi auto box - even the 'S' setting couldn't retrieve it and make it urgent. I could only consider a manual, but it would have to be Quattro too.

    Does the 2.7 offer much better MPG, or is it purely a tax benefit choice?
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    The difference is the turbocharger, nozzles and mapping. Early 3.0 Tdi had a bv50 turbocharger, later had a gtb2260vk and larger nozzles. The bv50 suffers from high EGT and it's easily damaged by poor remaps and WOT, the gtb2260Vk is much more robust ! A simple remap takes the v6 to nearly 280Bhp which is not to be sniffed at by any modern standards as it has 600Nm on tap ! I would look for a 6 speed manual gearbox as it's much stronger than the auto box but the clutch will suffer with so much torque. Unfortunately the a6 wasn't available with manual gearbox AFAIK so it's only a4 still in the game for me !
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    1animal1's Avatar
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    good info this!! cheers chaps!!

    Thanks for the DVLA link, but what we're questioning is the CO2 which we will then match up to the DVLA list, the TLV had lower emissions!

    So how do we know which turbo the 3.0 has? is it prescribed, certain years? my dealer warranty chap was talking to me about the 170's and the injector issues for which i brought up the 2.7 and 3.0...he'd seen a handful of the 2.7's but the 3.0 he said was amazing! Appreciate your comments too Warren, its unlikely i'll get to drive both as i'm far to inpatient - i'd settled on the 3.0.

    I'm sure they do the 3.0 in manual?

    Also the Auto box is supposed to be better on the clutch because it's auto, this is definitely true for the S3...everyone suggests getting an Stronic which is the same as the A6 auto box isn't it?
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    As the owner of an a6 lemans 3.0 quattro which was remapped by angel tuning at one of our meets, when they remapped it they dont ask me how they limited the bhp and torque in first and second because of the new bhp and torque figures.
    Driving it id say that if it was manual and quattro with little slip you would just melt clutches because of the performance from next to no revs.

    As to people not liking the gearbox do many of you use the paddles in s mode as far better that way but remember it is designed as a cruiser not a track monster.
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    thanks guys: good to see this thread has woken up... adams - good info - you know the engine codes for the different spec turbos (or how to tell)??
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    Just a quick note, I have posted before about checking the actual registration document to make sure you get a 3.0 tdi quattro auto that is less than 225 CO2. That's what will define your tax bracket. The ones with a £450 road tax are hard to sell because of this.....

    By the way, xenons not standard on s-line.....

    £14 to £15K should get you a nice 2007 A6 3.0 TDI Auto S-line 60-70K miles, then its up to you to find one with the most extras. Parking sensors are very handy for this big boy. Sat Nav and bluetooth are excellent, the way these two are integrated is excellent IMO. Bose - can take it or leave it, no big deal.

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    1animal1's Avatar
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    cheers Hazey, so theres no easy way to tell the tax bracket, V5 it is

    I'm finding it hard to find one specced with Xenons tbf.... a lot seem to be high mileage too.... I would say though 14-15k for an 07 plate would seem an expensive A6

    Personally once i'm looking i'll be holding out for Xenons/quattro/nav/bluetooth and leather as an absolute minimum.....crap spec on these types of cars really ruin the saleablility IMO
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    OK, good luck with your search; I looked for about 3 months to get a good 07 with low miles, as you say very hard to find one with less than 70K on it.

    All 3.0 TDIs are Quattro by the way, its an option on the 2.7 TDI but standard on all 3.0 jobs. I reckon you might find a private 07 plate for less than 14K, I usually go private to buy my cars but was too scared to buy a car this complex privately, wanted at least a few months guarantee so went to a 'national dealer'.

    What I meant was £14K - 15K should get you a good spec Le Mans, I wouldn't go for anything less as the Le Mans will give you the heated leather seats and 19" alloys as standard. I'm certain that all Le Mans auto editions are 223 CO2, so you'll be OK, its the slightly older 04/05 3.0 autos that were 225/7 CO2.

    Let us know how your search goes!

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    1animal1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by warren_cox View Post
    It's a very good engine, and I tried a 2.7 and it did seem quite lacking by comparison (hard to believe 10% cubic capacity can make such a difference).
    Warren, was the difference that massive?

    Quote Originally Posted by hazey7 View Post
    OK, good luck with your search; I looked for about 3 months to get a good 07 with low miles, as you say very hard to find one with less than 70K on it.

    All 3.0 TDIs are Quattro by the way, its an option on the 2.7 TDI but standard on all 3.0 jobs. I reckon you might find a private 07 plate for less than 14K, I usually go private to buy my cars but was too scared to buy a car this complex privately, wanted at least a few months guarantee so went to a 'national dealer'.

    What I meant was £14K - 15K should get you a good spec Le Mans, I wouldn't go for anything less as the Le Mans will give you the heated leather seats and 19" alloys as standard. I'm certain that all Le Mans auto editions are 223 CO2, so you'll be OK, its the slightly older 04/05 3.0 autos that were 225/7 CO2.

    Let us know how your search goes!
    thanks again Hazey, hopefully this will help the OP too (apaolgoies for stealing your thread )

    I had spotted the le mans, the options do differ quite widely too - last night i opened the search upto 20k and cant beleive the amount of dreamers wanting 20k for 07/08 plates!! personally i'm going to go for 18's, I imagine i'd be able to sell the 19's on easily enough? the aim of this swap is to reduce running costs on my depreciating lump

    Defo good to go for a dealer car if you can, although dont rule out buying your own warranty.....the only dealers that will trump these are main dealers for which you will more than likely pay the premium.

    Saw a nice one yesterday with spec i want, shame i havent been able to put mine for sale yet still finishing my auto lights/wiper retrofit (need one tiny connector!!)
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    Unless the 2.7 was a lemon it was marked difference. Because my daily drive is 360bhp+ it's hard to judge. The 3.0 felt like it had some useful power, even the Mrs said when we tested the 2.7 (and I quote), 'this is sh1t, we're not having this'. I think I could have tolerated the 3.0 with a map on it, but the 2.7 felt bizarrely lazy. I thought it would be much of a muchness.
    Last edited by warren_S5; 7th September 2011 at 08:53.
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    Sold Warren, absolutely sold on the misus comment alone

    I was looking at the MPG difference which seems quite large and thought, I could maybe put up with .3 less.....sensible hat now removed!!
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    Just thought I'd add my two penneth....

    I have a 2008 57 plate 3.0TDI Le Mans A6 Quattro Avant with the Tip-tronic box and it falls into the top road tax bracket - £445. But it's worth every penny! A bit of advice - a good set of rubber is a must.
    When you drop one into sport mode, floor the accelerator and after the slight lag, watch as it gobbles up the tarmac! Remember it's a big lump of a car - approaching 1900kgs!

    Had mine over 2 years now and it still brings a big grin to my face when I floor it!
    Last edited by delirious; 6th September 2011 at 22:12.
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    yeah i made that mistake on my 8L S3, bought one budget tyre after a puncture for the rear, made it slip all over the place....only ever use Pirelli Rossos now.....

    It doesnt sound a slouch.....I'm now having fun in this ready for when i make the transition
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    You really have to test drive both a 2.7 and a 3.0. I was going for the extra mpg of the 2.7 and was willing to put up with slightly less power..... however once I drove a 2.7 I was well disappointed, very sluggish. The 3.0 is just so much better to drive, super smooth and just plain more fun.

    Delirious: amazed to see your 57 Le Mans in the top tax bracket, is it the slight extra weight of the Avant that just pushes into that bracket. My 07 Le Mans 3.0 TDI Tiptronic saloon is 223..... presume yours must be rated 225 or more?

    I will also be changing my tyres soon. Currently have Falkens which I cant fault, but would like to try Vredestein Ultrac as they get great reviews everywhere. A quieter tyre would be nice as the 235/35/19s can be noisy.

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    1animal1's Avatar
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    cheers Hazey, I think my time would be wasted driving to a 2.7 given everything thats been said..... incidentely, wheres the OBD port on the A6, will obviously want to fault code any prospective purchases....nothing worse than turning up and not knowing where it is
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    OBD port? No idea. The port used for mapping my A4 2.0T was right of the steering wheel, where the fuse box usually is.... not sure that will help....

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    yeah i guess it'll be in the same spot.....i just did a mk5 golf recently and couldnt find it for love nor money..... looked a right tit

    Knowing the complexities of the A6 compared to the rest of the range
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    1animal1, I'm on Conti Sport 3's at the mo. Not bad, pretty quiet, but grip wise not in the same league as Michelin Pilot Sports IMO, but I haven't got Michelin funds at the mo. Oh, while I think on, the OBD port is really low down in the drivers footwell, above the accelerator pedal!

    hazey7, yeah, the emissions come in at 226 - dunno if all the optional extras on it have played a part. It's got quite an impressive list of options fitted. I'm surprised you're on 235/35/19's - I thought the Le Mans are all on 255/35/19's

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    delirious, thanks mate..... also the OBD seems to be in the same place as most recent Audi's..... good news

    I wonder if emissions are also dictated by wheel radius perhaps, not out of the realm i spose
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    Delirious: amazed to see your 57 Le Mans in the top tax bracket, is it the slight extra weight of the Avant that just pushes into that bracket. My 07 Le Mans 3.0 TDI Tiptronic saloon is 223..... presume yours must be rated 225 or more?



    This is odd, my 07 3.0 TDI Le Mans is in the high tax bracket. (226 Co2/g). Just bought it last month and we both looked at the 2.7 and the 3.0. First we looked at a manual 2.7 which the wife also didnt like because it had a "funny smell?". This suited me as I wanted an auto and four wheel drive.
    So, even though it had more milage, higher mpg and a higher tax bracket we went for the 3.0 Le Mans.

    One piece of advice, make sure it has a better MMI than mine. Only a radio and cd player in the glove box and looking at a £500 to be able to plug in an mp3. It wouldnt be so bad if it was a 6 disc cd changer as those recognise mp3 discs.

    Love the car though, its a lazy auto when in drive probably to save fuel but even then when in 3rd or above it picks up quick. When in the sport mode its even better. Changes silky smooth at all times.

    As for the fuel costs, the wife saves up tesco 5p 0ff vouchers and manages to get three of them for every fill up (tank lasts 13-14 days). 15p off per litre at every fill up saves more than a tenner!

    Just my two pence worth

    Enjoy

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    Good review Salty thanks

    I've decided I'm going to buy a s***r until I can find my ideal spec, that has to include bluetooth and ipod aswell as the additions above. I think theres a good amount of well specced cars out there due to the nature of their original sales (large exec car) its just a matter of patience....something we all run out of :D
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    Yeah, sorry, tyres are indeed 255/35/19....


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    niiiiice car there Hazey
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    ipod connectivity is in the glovebox. if it has the ami it can accept an ipod/hard drive/mpe player depending on which lead you get from audi. i use the audi hard drive.
    remember if it has the cd changer it plays mp3 cd's too.
    but you have to put the instruction manual cd in slot one as its a cool gimic.
    iirc all lemans had bluetooth????? look for the sharkfin.
    V8 baby... oh yeah

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    yup ive been keeping an eye out for that shark fin, same as the S3...i priced AMI for this but decided against as £400 for the module just isn't worth it - so stuck with basic ipod functions with track no.s on the nav.....

    So whats the tell tail sign AMI is fitted, the module in the glovebox?
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    this is the set up in mine.
    im guessing it may be a case of looking in the glove box or possibly on the controls.
    cd/tv appears on the basic models where as media appears on the higher specd i think
    V8 baby... oh yeah

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    cheers for the pic Gavin, so thats full AMI is it?

    I think the CD/TV and media relates to the RNS-E doesnt it mate, infact I know it does.....unless yours has the same menus?
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    Is that what the little fin on the roof is? The bluetooth?! I thought it was an aerial for radio / DAB?

    I'm off to look in the glovebox and see if there's anything I don't know about.....

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    generally if they have a fin they have the phone kit which includes BT....it doubles up as the NAV GPS antenna too
    Xbox 360 gamer ID : Timffy

    Grey Triumph Sprint 1050 ST
    Silver BMW 535D Tourer - Fully loaded 340BHP 700NM torque
    2009 8P3 S3 Brilliant Red - Sold
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  35. #34
    Gavin0478's Avatar
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    on the avants the radio/dab antenna is in the passenger rear window and saloons its built into the heater elements iirc.
    V8 baby... oh yeah

  36. #35
    1animal1's Avatar
    The Clar!! it mouves!!!

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    that may be, my S3 has the radio antenna in the boot lid via 2 amplifiers ...the fin is GPS and phone
    Xbox 360 gamer ID : Timffy

    Grey Triumph Sprint 1050 ST
    Silver BMW 535D Tourer - Fully loaded 340BHP 700NM torque
    2009 8P3 S3 Brilliant Red - Sold
    2001 F/L S3 Dolphin Grey - Sold
    1999 Pre F/L Silver A3 1.8T - Sold

  37. #36
    BahnStormer77's Avatar
    BahnStormer

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    thanks guys - some good info in here.

    fyi - 2.7TDI was a tax-bracket design to follow on from the 2.5TDI's high CO2, low MPG probs.... hence tuned for the same power, but with better company car-tax ratings. Spec's tend to be lwoer as they're aimed at the more budget conscious.

    3.0TDI does always seem to be quattro, but not sure I'd "guarantee" it... the 2011 model has a FWD version (detuned to 204bbhp, but clocks 130g/km CO2 even on a multitronic gearbox!!), my neighbour has one - cracking cars, but I'd still want the quattro.... and the A4 cabriolet also has a 3.0TDI in FWD.

    1900kg's not too bad considering the size of the beast: my A4 quattro is over 1700 (only 25kg's off my dad's 2.0TDI A6!!)....
    LostBok/BahnStormer77
    A6 (C7) Avant 3.0TFSI, DSG, rain and light sensor pack, LED headlight pack, MMI touch, SDS high, AMI, 360deg sensors + auto-park, Dunlop SP Winter Sports / Pirelli P Zero's.

  38. #37
    BahnStormer77's Avatar
    BahnStormer

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    Now I may even hold off getting a 240bhp 2nd hand A6 Avant and wait for this one to land on the company car scheme...

    2011 Audi A6 Avant 3.0TDI Biturbo @ evo.co.uk

    309bhp, 44mpg, 169g/km CO2, 0-62mph in 5.3secs with the 8 speed tiptronic...

    Sadly I think the car scheme is going to sting me for the entire cost of a 2nd hand car every year
    LostBok/BahnStormer77
    A6 (C7) Avant 3.0TFSI, DSG, rain and light sensor pack, LED headlight pack, MMI touch, SDS high, AMI, 360deg sensors + auto-park, Dunlop SP Winter Sports / Pirelli P Zero's.

  39. #38
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    I've just bought my first A6 and a lot of the questions you have I went through as well - my budget was pretty tight so I went for an older 04 plate 3.0TDI. My main criteria were: Diesel, Quattro, high spec, low price. I do a lot of miles, so I tend to go for higher mileage but reliable cars which the A6 seemed to fit. Mine has 90k on the clock with no major faults (one minor fault on the handbrake switch).

    I looked at the SLine spec, but actually decided against it for a few reasons. First, it bumped up the price without actually bumping up the spec that much. Secondly, it lowered the car and put a sports suspension which, given that I wanted Quattro so that I could drive in weather like snow and on rough Welsh country roads, I decided against. So, mine is actually an SE, but with a higher spec - full leather interior, oak trim, heated seats, electric seat adjustment, sat nav, advanced key, xenons, full MMI with 6CD changer, phone prep etc. All in all, I'm very happy indeed with the car that I bought for a better spec and about £1k less than I could find equivalent SLines. I spent 3 months searching on Autotrader until I found this.

    The only caveat from my purchase is mobile prep. I wasn't aware of all the options, and I've ended up with a built-in mobile which requires a SIM. To retrofit the Bluetooth module to replace the built-in mobile is going to be about £400+ (see my other thread on this). As a result, my only music sources are CD or Radio and my only option is a second SIM on the mobile.

    Other than that, I'm very happy with it. Looking at my options for winter tyres next. Strangely, Kwikfit are looking like a very reasonable option for some damn good tyres - Continental TS830, which had damn good reviews as winter tyres.

    If someone knows if my 6CD changer on this old a model will take MP3 CDs I'd be interested...

    Crap photo, I need to get some decent ones taken when the weather improves again.


  40. #39
    hazey7's Avatar
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    These figures for new cars are amazing. The new 3 litre diesel engines are now incredibly efficient, 44mpg and 0-60 in 5 seconds.... huge leaps forward in the last year or so..... need to wait a couple of years for these cars to depreciate enough to become affordable though

  41. #40
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    The 3.0 TDI engine, mine BMK code is great, I love it but I have just had to replace 6 injectors!! read my post. Make sure you start the car and let it idle for 10 mins and if the injectors are on way out you will see white smoke. Audi have now superseded the part number a few times as there is an issue here. I think it is rare but possible and blo*dly expensive so worth checking. I spent weeks and found some 2nd hand with latest code from car with 48,000 miles on clock. Still...get the 3.0 TDI, great power, great MPG
    3.0 TDI S Line Quattro Avant, Leather, Bose, Colour MMI Sat Nav, Phone, LED rear + Xenons

 

 

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