T3 OR SCROLL SP56R

[jamie226bhp]

i know a bigger maf is needed to get the power over 250 but you said the turbo doesn't need a maf so how would you map the car without a maf

 

[slappy_dunbar]

The software "Map" would be limited to the MAFF sensor's sensitivity range. Keep that sensor in a 2.5" MAF then it will govern max tunable power at 200g/s or so. We've seen accurate numbers up to 205 but that's about all you can expect. Throw on a bigger housing and the sensor is immediately given a good deal of headroom. Why not simply plan for a 3" MAF housing and be done with it?

 

[aragorn]

I just meant a specific turbo doesnt require a larger MAF, not that you could run no MAF at all.

Just get yourself a used VR6 maf housing off ebay and drop the sensor in.

 

[jamie226bhp]

ahh i read it wrong then. i've seen some 3.5" ally ones in the states but i don't need that big do i, only want about 270 bhp as a don't want to have to upgrade internals

 

[slappy_dunbar]

Sorry to have missed this before...

slappy: interesting!

Presumably your F4h-l is similar in specs to the 51X?

I've been trying to compare the compressor maps on your website, but unfortunately the "mouseover" thing to view the maps doesnt really work very well, because of my screen resolution (1280x800). If i scroll down far enough to mouseover the link for the k04-02x, i can only see half of the map!

Do you happen to do the turbo without the extra parts, or perhaps with just the manifold? Lots of people might already have the silicon TIP and a working DV..

The F4H series has a bigger wheel, made possible by its bigger compressor housing. The up-sized component necessitates a custom-sized TIP, though. That's why its part of the kit.

 

[aragorn]

hmm, i dont recall mark having any trouble with his Outlaw tip?

Given the specs of the compressor are similar, whats different?

Also, is your tip designed to fit a 3" MAF housing? as that would make it worthwhile i guess!

 

[slappy_dunbar]

hmm, i dont recall mark having any trouble with his Outlaw tip?

The SP51X uses the smaller K03-005 housing shown at above right. Its inlet is unchanged from OEM 44mm sizing

Given the specs of the compressor are similar, whats different?

The compressors are different, for starters. Are you asking for a complete breakdown turbo v. turbo?

Also, is your tip designed to fit a 3" MAF housing? as that would make it worthwhile i guess!

Yup. 50mm on turbo side, 76mm on MAF side (Audi TT225/VR6 housings).

 

[aragorn]

arent both you and scroll using the same 39/51(54) ETT compressor?

 

[slappy_dunbar]

arent both you and scroll using the same 39/51(54) ETT compressor?

...and ours is bigger


41/51(54)

You still can't see our MAP well, right? That screen-size issue is a problem. I will re-write the code so the images all fit on your screen. Thanks for pointing that up.

 

[Drizz]

And how much is this non scroll turbo?

 

[aragorn]

Slappy sells a kit with the manifold, turbo, dump valve and silicone TIP for $1100 (around £725)

The SP51X works out at $750 for the turbo built from a core you supply, (ie £500ish) then you can get the manifolds on ebay for around £150, and a silicon TIP can be had for £50ish and Bosch DV is 25quid.

Bout the same really, and it seems the Frankenturbo is a slightly higher spec, and also has the ceramic coating stuff on there, plus slappys TIP takes the 3" MAF which is very useful!

 

[Drizz]

Where do i sign?

 

[aragorn]

frankenturbo.com

 

[Broken Byzan]

I emailed Scroll our concerns regarding part number v sizes and have had a reply

We offer standard builds but often clients want us to push the envelope as in the case of the SP56R. The SP56R was built for a client with cash who requested the largest compressor wheel we could fit, presto the 56r aka "Black Madonna". The correct hot wheel offered in that unit was a 50x42mm Rs4 turbine, not the 50x45mm that my competitor pointed out, mistake on my part.

So i hope that clarifys that for everyone wondering whats happening.

Maybe one day we will end up with a scroll V Frankenturbo powerthon?

 

[hardhitter]

I've done some quick calculations, to work out the efficiency operating range of the F4H-L. With a pressure ratio of 2.2 Bar and a calculated mass flow rate of air of 26.9 Lb/min I see the compressor efficiency being around 0.72-0.73 or 72-73%. It's difficult to read the flow rate axis to get the exact number.

I'll show my calculations later, of how I got the mass flow rate as it's not just MAF readings converted. I need word and equation editor, which isn't on this PC.

 

[slappy_dunbar]

So which would you choose?

After spending much time bashing the 2275-series wheel on the K04-20, -22, -23, -28, -29 I started second-guessing myself. For my analysis of this wheel I have depended upon American-based "AirWerks Boosted" for documentation. In their on-line catalog they have the 2275 shown as so:

Notwithstanding the sloppy "x-axis" gradiations (notice the numbers after 18lb/min) this MAP makes the 2275 look like the lazy dog I've been calling it to be. But then I recently came across another MAP, this one calculated for g/s:

Those numbers are one heck of a lot better than what the American chart shows! So which was right? Have I been unfairly beating up the 2275? After a bit of digging I found a tie-breaker, this one clearly sourced from 3K Germany:

I think two (both from the original manufacturer, as opposed to 3K Warner's aftermarket subsidiary) versus one makes this an easy call. Which means my charts above were based on inaccurate info. So, in fairness, I have NOW CORRECTED them, to reflect what I believe to be accurate. You will now see that the 2275-series wheel trumps the 2077. So a higher price for a turbo based on that bigger wheel has even more justification. Sorry for the earlier inaccuracies.

[NOTE: you might need to "refresh view" or some other command to get your browser to re-load the corrected graph. You'll know you're there when you see the purple line ABOVE the green one]

Slappy

 

[jamie226bhp]

so the 56R is better or have i read that wrong

 

[aragorn]

yes the 56R is better.

It seems then the 51X is slightly smaller than the frankenturbo (same exhaust turbine and slightly larger compressor on the franken)

The 56R is slightly better than the franken, maybe having a 15-20hp higher headline figure if i read that right.

 

[Broken Byzan]

Meh, i aint changing my X for an R for a few BHP yet.LOL

Tho it's good to see the info has now been corrected, Cheers Slappy

 

[slappy_dunbar]

yes the 56R is better.

It seems then the 51X is slightly smaller than the frankenturbo (same exhaust turbine and slightly larger compressor on the franken)

The 56R is slightly better than the franken, maybe having a 15-20hp higher headline figure if i read that right.

Keep in mind that I'm not posting any data related to the FrankenTurbo. I'd reckon that to be against the rules. I'd gladly incorporate the F4H power curve if I could, but don't want to get in dutch with the moderators.

 

[jcb]

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4655447

franken turbo install on an A4 for those interested

 

[Drizz]

So does anyone think id be wise ordering the Franken over the scroll this week?

 

[aragorn]

I'd be tempted!

 

[jamie226bhp]

be nice to try one and post some results up to compare the two of them, hopefully someone who likes changing turbo's can try one then the other and give us there results

 

[Broken Byzan]

I would happily swap between my outlaw and a franken turbo for comparisons sake if Slappy wishes to send one for testing?

I would even rolling road them for pub talk comparison......

 

[slappy_dunbar]

I would happily swap between my outlaw and a franken turbo for comparisons sake if Slappy wishes to send one for testing?

I would even rolling road them for pub talk comparison......

Say, where are you with a proper map for your setup? Are you thinking it's not really needed?

 

[aragorn]

It is needed, mainly due to the ignition timing being a little too advanced, but i suspect theres also a little more to be had with tweaking the boost curve to hold 18psi better.

 

[Broken Byzan]

Say, where are you with a proper map for your setup? Are you thinking it's not really needed?

Its being done early April( fingers crossed) with a day on the rollers with one of the countries most respected tuners

 

[slappy_dunbar]

That should coincide nicely with our first Mk2 installation. We have a dealer in Argentina who's going to turn it over to a tuner down there. I'll keep the pressure on them to forward me logs.

 

[Broken Byzan]

Nice one, i will see what logging i can aquire from my guy. What would you like to see?

 

[slappy_dunbar]

I suppose just boost req/act and how that corresponds to your airflows. Have I posted this up before? My hope is we can "toe the line" that this chart says is possbile.

 

[Broken Byzan]

Hmm my car doesn't have a MAP sensor so requested won't be possible. I am hoping for a boost v AFR V torque V power style graph of the finished product though.

Is the car in Argentina also an A4/Passat? As the transverse engines tune differently so comparison will not be an exact science as you know.

 

[slappy_dunbar]

The Argentine dealer only buys for transversal. But I do have quite a few longitudinal customers coming on line fairly soon as well. They won't have the luxury of custom tuning, however. For some reason there are a lot more longitudinal buyers than threre are for transversal. So far anyway.

As it happens, I am also just now starting to test hybrids for the 2.7t. I've spent so much time developing the CHRA for 1.8t that I am going to explore it in a variant of the RS4 turbos. I now just need to find some guinea pigs over here to give them a try.

 

[Broken Byzan]

Well if you need a UK based guinea pig, willing to swap units in and out on a custom tuned A4, Hit me up!

I think a few of our guys are waiting to see if someone actualy trys one IRL before pulling the trigger. We unfortunatly have to go custom as we don't get the PC16 file or hammer files etc etc over here off the shelf like you guys do sadly

 

[jamie226bhp]

why are we in the dark ages over here compared to the states

 

[slappy_dunbar]

We unfortunatly have to go custom as we don't get the PC16 file or hammer files etc etc over here off the shelf like you guys do sadly

That's crazy. You mean the dealers over there are withholding or do you lack the dealers?

 

[Broken Byzan]

The biggest issue is the lack of knowledge i think, and the fact our ECUs are different to yours, the file won't carry over on AEB cars.

Our ECUs have different chips to yours, so we cannot even import the chip easily.