Surgery: round 2

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Matt82

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symptoms: this time round im sorting the temperature problem. it takes forever to get up to temp and the temp will not stay at 90

cure: new stat. this as you may know is typically a cambelt off job. mine is almost due a cambelt and there is something making a whiring sound so im doing the lot

cambelt
aux belt
tensioners
water pump
stat
whatever else i find

so far ive faffed getting the bumper off and lock carrier down. lots of things to disconnect

i had to go back and get axle stands from storage (unnecessarily) because i couldnt find any more bolts behind the wheel arches. there are none, but it gave me a chance to get the front up in the air and look at the suspension

anyway, lock carrier is off so ive got access to stuff. aux belt is off and i find the aux tensioner sounds like a bag of nails when i turn it (result)

if not stripped it any further yet. need to research how to get the fan off and ill tackle the covers and order bits tomorrow

the offside variable valve gizmo looks weepy. is this an easy seal to change?

i hope to have it stripped back to the cambelt off tomorrow and get some timing marks on there

the pas pump sounds like a sack of sheet too like there is play in the shaft

anyone know if thats normal?
 
The VVT actuator is on the rear of the cylinder heads afaik.

The one on the front is the cam position sensor.

I doubt its normal for the PAS pump to sound rattly.

Does the engine require any cam locking tools?

I know on my ABZ it requires some cam locking tools to do the belt, as the pulleys arent keyed, they just sit on a morse taper.
 
the timing can be done without it, you just have to be careful

as for the cam sensor, is it straight forward to change the seal if its leaking? (i expect so)
 
its now ready for the cambelt to come off but i need to order parts

my auto tensioner doesnt auto tension anymore. its really bad

the pas pump pulley bolts and crank pulley bolts are all ******, idiots in the past had just banged t45 torx bits on (cambelt done last at amd..)

i think i might actually buy the camshaft locking tool because i want this done right tbh
 
Don't know if it's any use to you, but there is a thread in the Stoke Audi forum on AudiSRS with discounted prices for a full B5 S4 cambelt kit with all the extras.

I've used them recenlty and they were much cheaper than a normal dealership (MAF was £40 cheaper!). Might be worth getting some parts prices off them.
 
you two are legends. need to register on audisrs in a hurry!
 
picked up the first round of bits from eurocarparts

the conti kit is full of designer brand parts! INA and NTN rollers and the tensioner is made by NTN too!

ive got the ribbed belt roller too, made by Litens, the same people who make the OE part, so win win

i just need a water pump and stat. audi want £103 for a pump and stat. they must be joking... really not liking the audi parts people
 
I've got a 1.8T OE Audi tensioner here, and its got NTN stamped on it, so yours is probably OE too.

Why didnt you get the pump and stat from ECP?
 
because the quality would be a bit of an unknown. i cannot remember the oe stat and pump brands off the top of my head

i once changed the stat on a 20vt twice in quick succession due to the pattern parts failing. the OE stat on my golf failed after 14 years, i put a pattern FEBI stat in which caused it to run warm because it was not an 83* stat like VW intended

oe stats for me please, but if you can find out about decent pumps, im all ears mates. i really detest my local audi dealer parts dept, seriously unhelpful
 
I think you also need to be careful with OEM water pumps. I'm sure some have plastic impellers rather than metal ones.
 
thats been an "issue" for years with vag anyway, ive known plastic impellor ones last to nearly 200k miles but obviously there are failures well before then

know where i can get a decent water pump?
 
when i had the golf at the ring last year i was seeing oil temps up to 120* and water temps getting close to 100*, because i had a pattern stat.

definately getting those bits from the dealer, esp considering how much of a ball ache it is to change them again.

anyone know what brand the oem water pump is?
 
Matt82 said:
when i had the golf at the ring last year i was seeing oil temps up to 120* and water temps getting close to 100*, because i had a pattern stat.

definately getting those bits from the dealer, esp considering how much of a ball ache it is to change them again.

anyone know what brand the oem water pump is?
Click to expand...
The OEM water pumps are made by Topran/Circolli (wich you can get from local GSF) but i would save me money and get a KWP/Meyle water pump from ECP but with brass or cast iron impeller, have fitted these for years and not one failed yet... Thermostats, as long as they have the same temp range, you should be ok. If it matters that much the dealer ones are about 20 quid...
 
i couldnt find anything substantial to back up what you said about the water pumps, so ive placed an order with audi

£170something later and ive got a water pump, stat, gaskets, ribbed belt tensioner (with roller).

new crank pulley bolts and new pas pump pulley bolts

there are other bits, but tomorrow i should have all the parts i need
 
i started again on friday night armed with the contitech belt kit and a stack of new parts from audi

by 1am i had the new stat, new water pump, timing belt and tensioners etc all back on. im getting a new aux belt today as there isnt consistent info about the belt length so ill replace it regardless because the car was worked on by idiots before

i want to sort out a pas leak where it joins the cooler and then put new pas fluid in

should be as simple as a few jubilee clips

audi wanted £14 for a three inch length of pas hose

also found out about the bleed procedure for this engine too, very suprised about that too

nearly time to drive it again
 
aragorn said:
bleed procedure for the PAS?
Click to expand...
as for bleeding the pas, just drain the system, steer the wheels from left to right to get the fluid out.

pour in new stuff, keep steering it left to right again, soon enough it has all flowed through

id love to bleed the clutch with it all in the air too
 
Ive managed to find extracts of elsa win on google. basically, the s4 lump has three bleed vents, it tells you the sequence to open them in etc.

ive found torque settings galore

i need to change a hall sender seal too at some stage

i think ill change the seal on the oil cooler when i change the oil next too
 
Matt82 said:
i couldnt find anything substantial to back up what you said about the water pumps, so ive placed an order with audi

£170something later and ive got a water pump, stat, gaskets, ribbed belt tensioner (with roller).

new crank pulley bolts and new pas pump pulley bolts

there are other bits, but tomorrow i should have all the parts i need
Click to expand...
Circolli (they have a factory in Italy and another in Spain) is one of the OEM maufacturers for VAG group and they do water pumps and thermostats amongst other things. They a came with the same plastic impellers and they use NTN bearings so you safe there by knowing that you wont have to worry about bearings failing. I however dislike plastic impellers so i use KWP water pumps(made in germany) wich come with brass or cast iron impellers and they use the same NTN bearings like the OEM pumps... I do not advise you to use cheap parts just OEM like quality... still 170 quid is a bit too much that what i will pay on a thermostat, water pump and a few seals...
 
oem like quality, means naff all when youre having to strip down the front of your s4 again or take it back to some garage and get shafted with labour costs again

ive had two water pumps in my hands (both audi) on friday night and neither of them said a brand or anything really so ill pay the premium and get what i know is right. there are scores of water pump brands and even more conflicting news on tinterweb. audis sites do seem particularly clueless about tech stuff, but regardless of what info you can provide about the circolli pump, the difference in cost was a few £ between that and OEM, youd have to be mad to choose otherwise
 
nearly done. had a couple mess ups

1) lower cambelt cover didnt go on properly so when the pulley when on there was contact. glad i checked for this otherwise the engine would have sounded crap

2) i tried putting in the wrong bolts between the wing and lock carrier, couldnt figure out what i was doing wrong so had to get the lock carrier off again

i couldnt find two of the bleed holes but it seems to have bled itself.

then i started the engine... my god it sounds good. sounds like a ****** v6 again, no stupid whirring sounds at the front and it revs so cleanly

it gets up to temp, the stat opens when it should and the fan comes on. no water leaks

it sounds ****** fantastic
 
:) Its always nice when a plan comes together!

At least you got the car cheap, so you've not taken too much of a hit, and probably ended up with a better result than had you spend more for a "working" car in the first place too!

You enjoying the torque-that-falls-away-too-early? :p
 
not enjoying the dieselness just yet, i still need to..
put the bumper on
connect fogs and headlight washers
screw the wheel arch liners back in
front wheels back on
off the axle stands
pack up tools so that i can get it out the garage

thing is, the cambelt job cost me maybe about £250, but i changed everything.

i could have bought a working car but it could have had a noisy roller at the front or something and needed the same work so im still pretty pleased

oh... ill get my dyno plot posted up soon, youll like it. no torque spike. it climbs to 350-360lbft by about 2000rpm and just holds it until just after 5000rpm.

dan on here also has an amd remap and his plot looks nothing like mine. his torque spike goes up to 380lbft and then falls away, hence my diesel comments
 
ive been enjoying the dieselness. traction control flashed up in 2nd in the wet lastnight

i need to adjust the bonnet catch, the alarm keeps going off

i need to make some adjustments because the viscous fan is touching the hard pipe the comes off the intercooler

other than that, its tip top

it gets up to 90* and stays there!!
 
Its nothing like a diesel anyway, a diesel starts to do something and then you hit the governor, at least the petrol engine can rev out somewhat!

If the torque curve is as you describe then its probably about the most ideal you'll find for a car that drives nicely with no perceptible lag and provides effortless performance.

Craigs viscous was touching the hardpipe, because he fitted a silicone TBB which makes the top edge of the pipe sit further forwards. Cant really see any way round it other than changing the TBB back, and having left it like that for a few weeks, its cracked the timing cover where the hardpipe bolts on to it...
 
i was thinking about the tbb earlier... i could trim it so it sits further onto the throttle itself. job done

tonight im gonna get indoors, get a coffee, clean up the house with the gf and get an early night. i think the fresh air is killing me, im so tired!

the dyno plots on my s4 are not that diesel-like, it doesnt spike up and go limp... need to get the pics posted up

ill do the final tweaks this weekend including the airbox mod

after christmas ill fit the milltek, but i can be bothered with that at the moment.

i really ought to order a boost leak thing off ebay, i cant be bothered to make my own tbh either.
 
audi upgrades
Matt82 said:
oem like quality, means naff all when youre having to strip down the front of your s4 again or take it back to some garage and get shafted with labour costs again

ive had two water pumps in my hands (both audi) on friday night and neither of them said a brand or anything really so ill pay the premium and get what i know is right. there are scores of water pump brands and even more conflicting news on tinterweb. audis sites do seem particularly clueless about tech stuff, but regardless of what info you can provide about the circolli pump, the difference in cost was a few £ between that and OEM, youd have to be mad to choose otherwise
Click to expand...
You'll be surprised to know that even the dealer does not uses the same suppliers as when they comisioned them pumps, thats why they ask you for a core, so they can press new bearings in and glue a new impeller ! They sold the rights to the casts long time ago hence new companies step in ! You wont find no markings on the Circolli pumps or KWP ones or any other OEM product even if they are made on the same product line... You get what you pay for though, many "genuine" products are made in Spain or Switzerland, very few are still made in Germany...
 
It can be a bit of a mis-conception that oem parts manufactured by a company that sells after market are of the same quality.

Yes, they may well be made in the same factory (for many companies infact) but parts manufactured for oem (Audi in this case) are usually of a better quality. The reasons may be many, such as the amount of quality control and inspection that oem parts get. Also the procedures for manufacturing the oem part may be much more thorough and consistant to iron out any product failures, recalls or defects. I do have some first hand experience of this, but I can't say it applies to all parts in all cases.

Just remeber VAG parts come with a 12 month warranty because they are more confident in the parts lasting.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against fitting some aftermarket parts, either that I know to be good quality or have good experience using.
 
well after a couple days of post surgery bliss the car is back in the shed.

the clips i changed on the pas cooler werent upto the task (were a touch large tbh but all i could get at the time)

the pump had started picking up air and was getting noisy. thankfully i could get to those with only getting the under tray off.

new proper sized clips, fluid (new green) drained, but i also decided to change the large rubber hose that i think supplies the pump. i think mine has a split letting air in.

that was a complete **** to get off, the hose had gone hard and brittle. after i got the verniers out and measured up the hose i needed to find to replace it. audi want £14 for the replacement..... erm no

16mm id, turns out halfords do 15.8mm id hose off the shelf

im looking to fit that up tomorrow, i had cooking to do tonight.

it looks like itll be a hard bend to put the hose around, so im tempted to bin the whole idea and get some 16mm id silicon stuff but at a 45* bend

eitherway my PAS will be perfect. after i flushed it last time and bled it properly it was silent.

i want the car ready for the road by next weekend because im taking it away with me for xmas
 
aragorn said:
Craigs viscous was touching the hardpipe, because he fitted a silicone TBB which makes the top edge of the pipe sit further forwards.
Click to expand...
absolutely spot on. the throttle itself has a recess and the tbb has a lip that sits in the recess. there is an excess of material on the tbb that means the lip cannot be made to reach the recess.

i need to trim the tbb back to make the lip and recess meet. no more hardpipe and fan interface!
 
yup, the neck is basically too long and the tbb doesnt go far enough onto the throttle. i think its just over 5mm that ill be trimming off. the tbb will be able to be pushed on further, the lip will locate into the recess and the hardpipes wont be near the fan.

it is good to finally be getting familiar with this engine.... but i cannot for the life of me find more than 1 of the bleed nipples for the coolant system
 
elsa win says there are three :( the heater hoses are properly buried too, ive no chance of reaching those. they make it look so easy in the picture haha
 
They're up beside the battery and brake servo?

If yours is facelift you'll have to remove the scuttle cover though.
 
oh sweet, for some reason i didnt check behind there. im in the shed againt onight ill haev a look
 
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