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Thread: little project

  1. #1
    S4twiggy's Avatar
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    little project

    not sure if this is suitable for this forum but here goes

    for a while now i have been thinking of doing a little project wit my cousin.
    i have time on my hands after i finish wrk and on weekends so i need something to keep my mind going as im an on the go type f guy and i cant sit around for too long before getting bored.

    me and my cousin are mental about cars so we both thought of getting a little project going, we want to get a car for cheap and try and set itup for a track.

    the cars we are looking at the moment are

    Corsa B
    Fiesta mk 4/5
    Audi A3
    Golf mk 2/3/4

    we or i have decided to look at these sort of cars due to them being cheap to get hold of as most of them start from 100 except the Audi which we can get for hopefully under 1000

    we are thinkin of setting a budget to keep things interesting, the bonus of having 2 people in this is that everythings half price

    as for tracking the car we will find out more over time but for now we intend to get a car and work from there, we both have experience fixing our own cars and are handy with a spanner so mostthings wont be too bad and thats where the fun is for e, stripping a car then sorting it back. we will be strippin every single thing that is not needed to los all the weight we can as we have arguments all he time about weight and its influence sow thought we would prove it.
    anyway lads i just wanted to post this so if anyone has had any experience indoing this then ill be after your advice sometime.

    ill explain in more detail as wot the project is going to be doing in time to come but as for now we are looking for a car

    just a teaser of wot we want to do is, engine swaps,engine modding,fully cosmetic stripping(anything that weighs goes within reason) fabrication, anything mental

    imagine 200bhp insomething that weighs 600kg thats nearly 300bhp per ton, well more than my S4 running at 300bhp so this is a test for us to see how much weight actually pays a part in racing.

    sorry if that dragged on but im bored and jus wanted to let yall know wot i had in mind look forward to keeping my mind occupied.
    Last edited by S4twiggy; 24th September 2009 at 20:41.

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  3. #2
    jamie226bhp's Avatar
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    nova's are about 100kg lighter than corsas and if your gonna track it it will need a bit of a cage, but they do do fibrglass doors, bonnet and tailgate for the corsa b, here's my old corsa which was 230bhp but still weighed 880kg wet


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    2000 a4 1.8tqs-yellow

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    civic vti? 160bhp standard and not that heavy. handle good too i think. the engines love to be thrashed and rev freely past 8k. to me they would make a far better cheap track car than any of the ones above.

  5. #4
    S4twiggy's Avatar
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    we are looking for a car at the moment and are open to ideas, hopefully we will be tracking a car but for now its just a project, like i said...we will find out more about tracking a car(rules on tracking a car)

    i will keep this thread updated as more happens, should be gettin a car soon though, a nova is a bit too old for us i think, we want summin like a 98 onwards

  6. #5
    "Stick a V8 in it!"

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    I plan to do something similar with an A4 quattro once my finances are looking a little more healthy.

    They can be had super-cheap, good suspension setup and 4wd for the mechanical grip. Ok they might be a bit heavier than a small hatch, but i recon that 170-200hp thats available from a v6 combined with a stripped shell should provide enough pace to have fun while getting used to the car, then you can always slot something with more grunt in later (V8? :D). I also suspect it will be built a lot stronger that a bendy little hatch, which will aid traction and handling.

    People dont think twice about tracking a subaru or evo, but the A4 always gets overlooked or slagged off for being heavy/slow etc. Makes far more sense to me than paying out 2-3k for a subaru to potentially stack it into the armco/tyres.

    2000 A4 1.8T Sport Quattro Avant, Berry Pearl
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    my96A4Turbo's Avatar
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    anything with a c20xe/ c20let redtop...nova/ mk2/3 astra/corsa/cav......one of the best engines made with plenty tuning potential /....


    or a Subaru...you can pic up a wagon for a bag of sand nowadays

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    s4marsh's Avatar
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    i know of a 96 coupe 2.6 going for peanuts its mint too both colour and condition

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    You won't get any of those cars down to 600KG.

  10. #9
    "Stick a V8 in it!"

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    No probably not, even getting a nova down there is bloody difficult. Just means you need more power though

    2000 A4 1.8T Sport Quattro Avant, Berry Pearl
    2000 A4 1.8T Sport Quattro Saloon, Black-ish
    1997 S4 - PPC £999 Challenge Track Car Build
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  11. #10
    jcb
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gliballs View Post
    You won't get any of those cars down to 600KG.
    magni drill and whole saw.

    get busy on the box sections where the cage supports the beams.
    RUF tuning did an extreme lightweight version of the already anarexic pre 1973 911 RS where they cookie cut circles of about 5cm out of the inner sides of all boxes as they are already strengthend by the cage.
    knocked about 75kg off the dry weight.

    I had a Mk2 golf Gti I was planning on doing something similar (until I realised the shell had more rust than a scrapyard full of Fords)

    takes serious wedge but it can be done with fibreglass wings, bonnet, boot, roof skin alloy suspension components, going for a really big dump before youre drive it...that kind of thing

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    Aye, but with respect to the thread starter and his mate, they won't be blowing 'serious wedge' on this project.

    Stripping a MK2 Astra GTE down to 900KG (as an example) is a big enough deal, but fitting a cage only ADDS to the weight again.

  13. #12
    S4twiggy's Avatar
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    id love to get an A4 quatty but thats me being a audi snob, but he is a ford man and every day in work we have arguments about weight and small vs BIG and i want an audi and he wants a ford lol we have to make a compromise so we are talking about different cars and wot would be best, obviously the more refined audi would be better but the ford will be alot cheaper and lighter so we are looking at all options first

    we are going to try and stick to a budget and see if it can be done at low cost, this project will be done over time as we both have our own cars to tune and mod but it will be fun to try different things

    we both have never doe anything else like this before so it will be a learning curve but an interesting one at that. im looking forward to it.

    we were thinking of subaru but like we said a budget is wot we will be workin too unless summing changes. i want to try a small hatch to see the difference as ive only driven big cars.

  14. #13
    "Stick a V8 in it!"

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    Mate and i were talking about it the other day and reconned you'd be talking about 2grand to get an average saloon car into track condition.

    We came up with this:
    Car: 500
    Bushes/Rubbers all round: 150-200? (Audis more like 400+ due to its multi link arms but we were being generic)
    Cheap suspension kit with new shocks: 200
    Seats and harnesses: 650 (using a figure for some half decent cobra suzukas, could probably do it cheaper with a more budget seat or used parts)
    Spare set of OE rims with some tyre left: 150?
    Set of decent R888's or the like: 3-400?
    Brake Pads: 200Clearly a cage would be a good idea too, but we were talking about the cheapest you could get a track ready car together for. Other improvements such as weight reduction are free, and things like polyurethane filling the engine mountings to improve drivetrain location would also be a good idea and effectively costs nothing.

    Given that those figures dont include engine transplants or big brake upgrades, you'd really be looking for something half decent to start with, but i recon that using a saloon car with reasonable pace, and getting used to track driving and improving your skills would be more valuable than hoofing 400hp into a shoe box and setting off for silverstone.

    Most big engined saloons, be it a mondeo V6 or A4 V6 or a BMW 325 etc are going for buttons these days, as people simply cant afford to run them as everyday family cars, but given the quattro system and the excellent rust protection for a mid 90's car the A4 really has it on the plus points i recon.

    For the money it would cost you to buy a completely stock scooby, you could have a 2.8 V6 A4 on the track with decent tyres brakes and seats and have 200hp to play with, which lets face it, isnt going to be that bad given theres a lot of weight that could be removed. Your probably talking 150-160bhp/ton.

    I dont think any of the aforementioned hatches would have anywhere near those power to weight ratios for that money. The corsa and fiestas would all need engine transplants to something around the 2.0 mark, as their standard top spec 1.6 engines just dont make enough power, and the A3/Golf4 are much more expensive to begin with. Golf2 and 3 are closer in stock trim but still not quite there, a golf2 16v on a mega diet might just about match the A4 in power to weight terms, but they're all either rotten or will cost a fortune as they're a saught after car.

    2000 A4 1.8T Sport Quattro Avant, Berry Pearl
    2000 A4 1.8T Sport Quattro Saloon, Black-ish
    1997 S4 - PPC £999 Challenge Track Car Build
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    s4marsh's Avatar
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    i live 20mins away from croft but also teesside autodrome and to take a race prepared car on track to test its 50 for all day i enquired a few months ago when still in work i wanted to enter the lo cost racing series in a westfield type car about 8 years ago or the mk2 golf challenge and would still love to.

  16. #15
    s4marsh's Avatar
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    5k for a remapped s4 with big brakes and if you could strip 200kg out of it would give you 257 bhp/ton proper track beast

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    I'd rather have a sub 1000KG Astra GTE with 280-300bhp again for 3.5K.

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    my96A4Turbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Gliballs View Post
    I'd rather have a sub 1000KG Astra GTE with 280-300bhp again for 3.5K.
    am with Dan on this 1, GTE running a C20let

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    s4marsh's Avatar
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    yeah true...
    front wheel drive is not the way for a track car tho or 4wd really or vauxhall for me anyway, i'd stay german like a bmw 325i with nitrous and progressive controller but sub 1000kg would be hard i think. what else is RWD 2ltr+ and quite light to start with without going japanese

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    Quote Originally Posted by my96A4Turbo View Post
    am with Dan on this 1, GTE running a C20let
    On a full-boost roll-on, mine was absolutely brutal (in the dry lol).

    The Quaife ATB played a vita part in this too.

  21. #20
    my96A4Turbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s4marsh View Post
    yeah true...
    front wheel drive is not the way for a track car tho or 4wd really or vauxhall for me anyway, i'd stay german like a bmw 325i with nitrous and progressive controller but sub 1000kg would be hard i think. what else is RWD 2ltr+ and quite light to start with without going japanese

    a good set up on a FWD will be just as fast round corners as most things.,,,just remember in slow out fast lol....plus c20xe/let parts are easy to come by....
    remember john Cleland he had no probs in his FWD CAV GSI2000 ......the cav GSI is a good handling car, haveing the rear independent supsension, rather than the solid axel that astra/novas had made a world off difference when giving it some around bends

    what about a nissan 1800 sx (sure thats what there called)....you can pic a no bad one up for about 1K...RWD& turbo

  22. #21
    "Stick a V8 in it!"

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    If you want to be fast round track you need 4wd. Its the only way to put the power down and keep traction.

    If you want to relate to touring cars, remember what happened when the audi a4 quattro entered the BTCC in 1995... It owned everything, in every race, so much so that they banned 4wd!

    I really dont think you need to get the car as light as you think you need it to be. if its a crappy little hatch with 100hp then fair enough, but with a nice big engine in there, 1200-1300kgs will be fine.

    I would put money on the fact that if you took an A4 quattro (or a subaru or evo or whatever), and a corsa with identical power to weight ratios, and similar modifications to the suspension the A4 would be quicker round a track.

    2000 A4 1.8T Sport Quattro Avant, Berry Pearl
    2000 A4 1.8T Sport Quattro Saloon, Black-ish
    1997 S4 - PPC £999 Challenge Track Car Build
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    my96A4Turbo's Avatar
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    but there on budget...yeh a scoob,evo,a4 would be better..but when it come to cheep track car not much will compeat with a astra/nova....
    plus when it come to parts/things braking i would rather foot the bill for a c20xe rather than subrau/evo bottom end/diff/prop ect ect

    cage sorted

    http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1228440.htm

    what about a pug ...ready to go

    http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1237408.htm
    Last edited by my96A4Turbo; 26th September 2009 at 12:22.

  24. #23
    "Stick a V8 in it!"

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    I just posted a big list of costs that would apply to any car, be it a nova or A4.

    Given you can buy mechanically solid A4 Quattros for 500quid, ie the same money as a corsa or a ropey astra i cant see why it would be any more expensive, and while it is a little heavier, it also has far more power than any standard corsa or astra has.

    Its fine saying a C20XE'd astra/corsa would be quick, but you need to either find an astra gsi, meaning big expense, or get yourself a corsa and buy/install the engine, tranny and buy the custom mounts, drive shafts etc etc.

    My list shows the bare minimum you'd want to do to get a car ready for track (bar just driving a stocker on there), so once you get into engine swaps etc the costs will simply go up.

    The nova is a good price, but you also need to remember its an early 90's vauxhall, i owned 3 of them and they all had rust to some extent. Its also on road tyres, and road brakes, both of which will last about 10minutes. Mate of mine recently shredded the front pair of uniroyal rainsports at a trackday at knockhill in a nova with 110hp. Its going to be even worse with 150.

    The pug was a reasonable buy, even if again it was on road tyres, and your still talking the best part of 2 grand after you've stuck a set of 888's on there.

    2000 A4 1.8T Sport Quattro Avant, Berry Pearl
    2000 A4 1.8T Sport Quattro Saloon, Black-ish
    1997 S4 - PPC £999 Challenge Track Car Build
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  25. #24
    CMD
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    Grant if it was me i would be looking at a MK2 golf gti .There a loads of part's / spare's out there for this model and lot's of support .


    PS . O i forgot i have a mk2 gti ..

  26. #25
    S4twiggy's Avatar
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    dont tempt me colin, im busting to get a mk2 but we are in this together and i have to make a compromise, trust me when i say im workin on him to get the mk2 lol the mk2 will be heavier but the options for a bigger lump i.e TT,S3 or A3 1.8t which ever comes along at the time will be more appealing to me than trying o get summin out of a N/A engine. if i had it my way it would be a mk2 fully stripped wit a S3 engine in it but we have a budget and have to make compromises

  27. #26
    "Stick a V8 in it!"

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    Unless you pick something rare, surely the cost of a donor will be pretty constant? You want something cheap and common, so if you bin it (and you quite possibly will) and wreck the shell, you can easily transfer everything onto a new car, rather than spending out on something thats $$$ to buy.

    Saying that, clean Mk2's are probably getting into the rare category, but maybe some careful ebaying might score a tatty one that would do the job, perhaps with a broken engine so you can drop in the turbo

    2000 A4 1.8T Sport Quattro Avant, Berry Pearl
    2000 A4 1.8T Sport Quattro Saloon, Black-ish
    1997 S4 - PPC £999 Challenge Track Car Build
    TD5 Land Rover Defender build


  28. #27
    2000 a4 1.8tqs-yellow

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    civic vti all the way. im pretty sure a standard vti would show up a b5 1.8t quattro on a track. people dont realise how quick they are. my mate had a mk2 crx vt( same engine as the civic etc) and it would rape lots of so called fast cars. all it had was a filter and exhaust engine wise. by tqs will be about 200bhp and the crx would hump it on a track.

  29. #28
    S4twiggy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aragorn View Post
    Unless you pick something rare, surely the cost of a donor will be pretty constant? You want something cheap and common, so if you bin it (and you quite possibly will) and wreck the shell, you can easily transfer everything onto a new car, rather than spending out on something thats $$$ to buy.

    Saying that, clean Mk2's are probably getting into the rare category, but maybe some careful ebaying might score a tatty one that would do the job, perhaps with a broken engine so you can drop in the turbo
    ive seen mk2's on auto trader going for peanuts, people who have them and dont realise wot they mean to other people are selling them for 200 onwards. but like you said sumin cheap would be better as we can source parts for next to nothing

    ford fiesta with a st170 engine in it sounds good for power to weight

  30. #29
    s4marsh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aragorn View Post
    If you want to be fast round track you need 4wd. Its the only way to put the power down and keep traction.

    If you want to relate to touring cars, remember what happened when the audi a4 quattro entered the BTCC in 1995... It owned everything, in every race, so much so that they banned 4wd.
    yes and no..
    i watched nearly every race in person back then, a sizeable proportion of races in 95 were wet races or rained slightly,in the dry the nissans and volvos were just as quick.also steve soper v's john cleland fwd/rwd, Rwd won that battle i think but we're talking big budget pro cars.
    take gt cars, the fastest road/racing car championship all rwd, any trackday car manufacturer like cateram, westfield, ultima, lotus, noble, plamer
    bmw swear by it porsche gt2+3 rs. 4wd= traction in adverse conditions but on a dry track a well set up fwd would be quicker than 4wd and rwd better than both in my experience.

    the age old pub argument rises it head.....lol

  31. #30
    s4marsh's Avatar
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    i would also love to make my s4 look exactly like the 95 bttc audi quattro. audi rings on the side some oz supertourismo's the lot but couldnt stand the abuse the non motorsport fans would give me.

  32. #31
    stoakseya4's Avatar
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    Interesting conversation this, and hope it continues.
    Would seriously like to get a track-only car sorted. As much as am loving getting the RS4 on track, would literally be in tears if I stoved it in, thinking I was " A Driving God "...

    Summink cheap n cheerful but fun.
    1998 S4 Widebody Saloon Track Car
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  33. #32
    "Stick a V8 in it!"

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    S4marsh, you need to consider the torque demand on the wheels and how the driving torque applied to the wheel affects grip.

    If you think of a FWD car or RWD car, you apply more power round a bend and you will eventually get to the point where the tyre cant grip any more, and you under/oversteer depending on the drivetrain. With 4wd that power is spread across more wheels, meaning you can apply more torque to the road before you break traction, and that means you end up faster.

    Its more of an issue in the wet, because the grip threshold is lower, meaing its easier to exceed the limit.

    2000 A4 1.8T Sport Quattro Avant, Berry Pearl
    2000 A4 1.8T Sport Quattro Saloon, Black-ish
    1997 S4 - PPC £999 Challenge Track Car Build
    TD5 Land Rover Defender build


  34. #33
    jcb
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    If I was considering a pure track car I would never start from scratch if I was on a budget.
    the offset value vs cost of modified cars makes them a very good buy if you are the buyer.
    two I found in a minute online, well over 7-10k worth of car and parts for less than half the money. OK may have been tracked a lot but still a better place to start applying your hard earned than a stock runner with all the interior.

    http://www.racedandrallied.com/rally...-205-rally-car
    http://www.racedandrallied.com/perfo...ale/106-rallye

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    s4marsh's Avatar
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    i was thinking of building a westfield track car a few years ago with a bike engine or a mk2 golf based kit car called the larini it looked very much like a lotus elise.
    Anyway there is a haynes maual for building a caterham/westfield/lotus 7 car for 250 if you can weld called build and race your own car for 250 . it has all the technical drawings in and parts lists the jewson lot i sold it for 2.50 on a car boot sale.. i'm not sure if you'd need an sva test or whatever its changed to on a track car tho but if your after a proper track animal and have about 200 hours spare you could build one of them and use audi running gear.

  36. #35
    s4marsh's Avatar
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    how about an audi-sport.net championship next year???? set a small budget and a few ground rules to stick to and find out through the msa how we'd go about it

  37. #36
    S4twiggy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoakseya4 View Post
    Interesting conversation this, and hope it continues.
    Would seriously like to get a track-only car sorted. As much as am loving getting the RS4 on track, would literally be in tears if I stoved it in, thinking I was " A Driving God "...

    Summink cheap n cheerful but fun.
    that is my intentions mate, we could just buy an S3 or scooby but like you said if you stuff it then its gona cost some serious dosh to sort out, who cares if a little fiesta gets smashed up, ill just buy another one for 50

  38. #37
    S4twiggy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcb View Post
    If I was considering a pure track car I would never start from scratch if I was on a budget.
    the offset value vs cost of modified cars makes them a very good buy if you are the buyer.
    two I found in a minute online, well over 7-10k worth of car and parts for less than half the money. OK may have been tracked a lot but still a better place to start applying your hard earned than a stock runner with all the interior.

    http://www.racedandrallied.com/rally...-205-rally-car
    http://www.racedandrallied.com/perfo...ale/106-rallye
    where's the fun in that though, we could just go out and buy a track prepped car with no worries but we are doin this for a challenge, we both want to learn more about cars so doin it from scratch will help us, thats how most of you who know wot your talking about, by doing thigs like this yourselves.

  39. #38
    6th Gear

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    Forget your lardy A4's etc lol, you just need to be a nutjob in a Citroen AX.......

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C42On...eature=related

  40. #39
    "Stick a V8 in it!"

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    s4marsh: my mates currently building a locost, which is a general name for the build-your-own-lotus7-type-car-from-a-book things.

    Its really not possible to do it for 250 these days, the donor vehicles fetch more than that alone, and the costs of all the parts are pretty high.

    Also doing a single donor build makes quite a lot of compomises, so when you start changing things to make them better it starts getting a lot more expensive.

    He's using mazda MX5 uprights for instance, and was also planning on using the MX5 rear diff, so he baught an MX5 shell for all the parts, turned out the diff wasnt going to be strong enough for the power he wanted so he had to find a ford cossie diff, which is ~200 on its own. He had a volvo T5 engine, decided to go with that, but then had to have various bits machined off the sump and a custom gearbox bellhousing welded up to make the volvo lump to a BMW gearbox.

    He's probably spent a grand or two already, and doesnt even have the frame built.

    2000 A4 1.8T Sport Quattro Avant, Berry Pearl
    2000 A4 1.8T Sport Quattro Saloon, Black-ish
    1997 S4 - PPC £999 Challenge Track Car Build
    TD5 Land Rover Defender build


  41. #40
    "Stick a V8 in it!"

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    That bruce taxis evo is no slouch, so that AX is running some seriously big power...

    From what i can find on google its a supercharged 16v motor making around 240hp...

    2000 A4 1.8T Sport Quattro Avant, Berry Pearl
    2000 A4 1.8T Sport Quattro Saloon, Black-ish
    1997 S4 - PPC £999 Challenge Track Car Build
    TD5 Land Rover Defender build


 

 
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