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Thread: A small project

  1. #1
    ScottD3's Avatar
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    A small project

    Its an idea i've been toying with for some time and been working on since Saturday.
    Thanks to Byzan for the clocks I can butcher and thanks to TonyA4 for the clocks to test (I've not blown them up yet).

    I want to fit facelift clocks to my Pre-facelift car.

    There is changes in the cable layout, different plugs and different sensors needed. Forgetting the sensors for now, they can be added later. I made a loom up out of facelift plugs and wires and the sockets from the back of a pre-facelift clock. I got pictures for that, which I will post up later.

    I think I got most of it working but I'm stuck on a couple of little bits.

    What works:=-
    Door sensors. not all but some. thats down to me not wiring them in.
    Dash lights. The clocks light up when I turn the light on but they don't when I open the door or turn the key, like pre-facelift lights. Is this correct?
    Voltage.
    Fuel.
    DIS control.
    digi displays.
    Dimming the display.

    Thats all I can test at the moment as I can't start the car to get it up to temp, speed or revs.

    What does not work:=-
    Its moaning about some sensors, oil, breaks and I think thats it. I can't really tell cause the screen has missing pixels.
    The immobilizer, I need to get this removed, codded, changed. I'm not sure what.
    Really important, I can't set the time. I push, twist and nothing happens. I think it goes in to a test mode at some point.

    Any ideas, pointers, helps or any thing would be great. My main aim is to get it working and the car driving. I will worry about the oil sensors and break sensors at a later date. I think thats the sensors thats missing.

    Here is some images (If they don't work, let me know and i'll get some photobucket ones up tomorrow)





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  3. #2
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    Good Job! so far

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    Thats looking good Scott.

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    248,000 miles????? Fook me! Mine's barely run in with 148,000 lol

    Seriously though mate, nice bit of work there. Will be interested how you get on

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    First thing I need to sort out is to remove or recode immobilizer and get the engine running.
    does any one have ideas about this?

    When you attempt to start a car with no key and immob is active, does the rev counter not work?

    how do you set the clock?

    left stalk on the clocks, what does each left, right and push do?
    right stalk, what does push do?

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    im very interested in this too, keep at it

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    has any one got the wiring diagrams in digital format for the b5s?

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    i can do, but be tomorrow now as i need to swap PCs over to my xp box for my full etka. Which bits you need?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Byzan View Post
    i can do, but be tomorrow now as i need to swap PCs over to my xp box for my full etka. Which bits you need?
    Want to double check the wiring on clocks.
    The pin outs I got seem to be ok but there is a couple that I confirmation on.

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    A little video
    Last edited by ScottD3; 13th October 2011 at 20:41.

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    Video not found

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    To set the time you PULL the left hand pin iirc?

    Immo is both part of the ECU and the clocks. You need the SKC from the cluster which you can extract with vagtacho, then use vagcom to pair the Cluster with the Engine ECU.

    You may find your older engine ECU wont pair with an IMMO3 cluster, but all you can do is try.

    Oil sensor uses a combined PWM signal for temperature, level and quality on a >2000 facelift cluster. You'll need to swap the sump for a later one with the level sensor, and connect the wiring appropriately. The dash will permenantly display "SENSOR" and an oil symbol without it.

    Pad warning can easily be turned off by shorting the appropriate wire to earth.

    Pinouts are as follows:
    Last edited by aragorn; 13th October 2011 at 18:31.

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    Pin assignment at multi-pin connectors on instrument cluster - vehicles from model year 1998
    Multi-pin connector, 32-pin, blue
    1 - Terminal 15
    2 - Turn signal (right-side)
    3 - Speedometer output 1
    4 - Not used
    5 - Fuel gauge sender
    6 - Airbag
    7 - Terminal 31 (sensor earth)
    8 - Coolant temperature
    9 - Terminal 31 (load earth)
    10 - Oil pressure switch
    11 - Engine speed signal
    12 - Terminal 61
    13 - Glow period warning lamp or CAT
    14 - Self-levelling suspension
    15 - Terminal 58d
    16 - Trailer turn signal / fault in engine electrical system
    17 - Main beams
    18 - Turn signal (left-side)
    19 - ABS
    20 - Terminal 58s
    21 - Door contact, driver's side
    22 - Coolant level low
    23 - Terminal 30
    24 - Terminal 31 (load earth)
    25 - K wire
    26 - Right parking light
    27 - Left parking light
    28 - Speedometer input
    29 - Brake fluid level/pressure
    30 - S contact
    31 - Belt buckle
    32 - ESP
    Multi-pin connector, 32-pin, green
    1 - Not used
    2 - Transponder 1
    3 - Not used
    4 - Immobilizer
    5 - W wire
    6 - Boot lid/tailgate (Lowline version only)
    7 - Brake pads (Highline version only)
    8 - Not used
    9 - Not used
    10 - Fuel tank warning output signal for engine control unit (only on 6-cylinder TDI and on export versions for USA)
    11 - Standing time output
    12 - Air conditioner shut-off
    13 - Handbrake
    14 - Electronic throttle
    15 - Parking lights
    16 - Not used
    17 - Transponder 2
    18 - Not used
    19 - Not used
    20 - Not used
    21 - Oil temperature
    22 - Not used
    23 - Not used
    24 - Not used
    25 - Not used
    26 - Not used
    27 - Not used
    28 - Not used
    29 - Terminal 58d (external dimmer potentiometer)
    30 - Speedometer output 2
    31 - Not used
    32 - Not used
    Multi-pin connector, 20-pin, red
    1 - Fuel consumption signal
    2 - Not used
    3 - Not used
    4 - Not used
    5 - Ambient temperature
    6 - Selector lever position indicator
    7 - Not used
    8 - Not used
    9 - Washer fluid low
    10 - Hydraulic pressure
    11 - On-board computer reset
    12 - Clock signal for radio frequency display
    13 - Data signal for radio frequency display
    14 - On-board computer, left
    15 - Enable signal for radio frequency display
    16 - Tail lights / dipped beams (bulb monitor)
    17 - Glow plug relay (on TDI engines the low-voltage monitor in the instrument cluster is disabled while the glow plugs are activated)
    18 - On-board computer, right
    19 - Brake light
    20 - Not used
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    Pin assignment at multi-pin connectors on instrument cluster (2000my)
    Multi-pin connector, 32-pin, blue
    1 - Terminal 15
    2 - Brake pad wear
    3 - Speedometer (output 1)
    4 - Not used
    5 - Fuel gauge sender
    6 - Fuel tank warning OBD 2
    7 - Terminal 31 (sensor earth)
    8 - Coolant temperature
    9 - Terminal 31 (load earth)
    10 - Oil pressure 2 (high)
    11 - Engine speed signal
    12 - Air conditioner shut-off
    13 - Electronic throttle / glow period warning lamp
    14 - Self-levelling suspension
    15 - Terminal 58d
    16 - Turn signal (trailer)
    17 - Main beams
    18 - Turn signal (left-side)
    19 - Not used
    20 - Terminal 58s
    21 - Driver's door contact
    22 - Coolant level low
    23 - Terminal 30
    24 - Terminal 31 (load earth)
    25 - Fuel consumption signal
    26 - Right parking light
    27 - Left parking light
    28 - Speedometer input
    29 - Brake
    30 - S contact
    31 - Speedometer (output 2)
    32 - ESP/ASR (TCS)
    Multi-pin connector, 32-pin, green
    1 - Door contact (all doors)
    2 - Transponder 1
    3 - Not used
    4 - Not used
    5 - W wire
    6 - Rear lid
    7 - Turn signal (right-side)
    8 - Not used
    9 - Not used
    10 - Airbag
    11 - Standing time output
    12 - Terminal 61/charge warning
    13 - Parking brake / BRAKE
    14 - CHECK
    15 - Oil level / oil temperature
    16 - Not used
    17 - Transponder 2
    18 - CAN high speed, power train (+)
    19 - CAN high speed, power train (–)
    20 - CAN high speed, power train (screening)
    21 - ABS
    22 - CAN low speed, convenience (+)
    23 - CAN low speed, convenience (–)
    24 - CAN low speed, convenience (screening)
    25 - Bonnet
    26 - Not used
    27 - Belt buckle
    28 - K wire
    29 - Ambient temperature input
    30 - Not used
    31 - Selector lever display
    32 - Not used
    Multi-pin connector, 32-pin, grey
    1 - Menu switch (menu)
    2 - Menu switch (out A)
    3 - Menu switch (out B)
    4 - Menu switch (enter)
    5 - CAN high speed, display (+)
    6 - CAN high speed, display (–)
    7 - CAN high speed, display (screening)
    8 - Passenger's door contact
    9 - Door contact, rear right
    10 - Door contact, rear left
    11 - Enable
    12 - Clock
    13 - Data
    14 - Brake light
    15 - Washer fluid level
    16 - Tail lights / dipped beams
    17 - On-board computer, left
    18 - On-board computer, right
    19 - On-board computer reset
    20 - Not used
    21 - Not used
    22 - Not used
    23 - Control group 1, Navigation system
    24 - Control group 2, Navigation system
    25 - Control group, Telematics
    26 - Not used
    27 - Not used
    28 - Not used
    29 - Not used
    30 - Not used
    31 - Not used
    32 - Not used
    Multi-pin connector, 4-pin, black, for radio-controlled clock
    1 - Radio-controlled clock signal (data)
    2 - Radio-controlled clock 5V
    3 - Not used
    4 - Radio-controlled clock earth

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeeT View Post
    Video not found
    New video.try again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aragorn View Post
    To set the time you PULL the left hand pin iirc?Immo is both part of the ECU and the clocks. You need the SKC from the cluster which you can extract with vagtacho, then use vagcom to pair the Cluster with the Engine ECU.You may find your older engine ECU wont pair with an IMMO3 cluster, but all you can do is try.Oil sensor uses a combined PWM signal for temperature, level and quality on a >2000 facelift cluster. You'll need to swap the sump for a later one with the level sensor, and connect the wiring appropriately. The dash will permenantly display "SENSOR" and an oil symbol without it.Pad warning can easily be turned off by shorting the appropriate wire to earth.Pinouts are as follows:
    thanks I'll try the clock again tomorrow.

    PWM signal?

    I might fit the sensor but put it somewhere else till I swap the sump over. I got a leaking sump at the moment, so its something to add to the lift for when I do that.

    Klappe says he's got what I need, so hopefully he'll be over this weekend and we can turn the pads off and attempt coding.

    these clocks are from tonyA4, I also have the key from the same car as these clocks.
    I might try that before coding but if the immob code is in the ECU and clocks, It will be trial and error.
    There was a forum post about removing the immob from the ECU, I'll dig it out.

    Thanks for the pin outs. Do you know if the EU pin outs differ from the yanks? I got two pin out diagrams from the states.
    Last edited by ScottD3; 14th October 2011 at 07:24.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scott b5 View Post
    thanks I'll try the clock again tomorrow.PWM signal?I might fit on but put it somewhere else till I swap the sump over. I got a leaking sump at the moment, so its something to add to the lift for when I do that.Klappe says he's got what I need, so hopefully he'll be over this weekend and we can turn the pads off and attempt coding.these clocks are from tonyA4, I also have the key from the same car as these clocks. I might try that before coding but if the immob code is in the ECU and clocks, It will be trial and error.I did read a forum post about removing the immob from the ECU, I'll dig it out.thanks for the pin outs. Do you know if the EU pin outs differ from the yanks? I got two pin out diagrams from the states.
    PWM = Pulse Width Modulation

    Heres the maths



    Make more sense now?

    Looking good though scotty well done. sorry ive not been much help, just not had the time lately.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Techniker View Post
    PWM = Pulse Width Modulation

    Heres the maths



    Make more sense now?

    Looking good though scotty well done. sorry ive not been much help, just not had the time lately.
    Could I make a PWM circuit and use that?
    As a tem fix, to remove the error?
    I'm not sure how the sensor works, so that idea might be stupid.
    Last edited by ScottD3; 14th October 2011 at 07:40.

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    It would probably be easier to fit the later model sump and sensor and wire it to the cluster... as i suspect finding out what the output of the sensor would prove difficult...
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    i've checked the pins out I got from the states with the pin out Aragorn supplied and there is slight differences.

    There is a couple of changes over two plugs.

    First is the 98 Green plug.
    The yanks don't have any thing in Pins 2, 4, 17 and 29.

    Pin 2, Transponder 1
    Pin 4, Immobilizer
    Pin 17, Transponder 2

    I assume the above pins are missing on the yanks cause they did not have immobilizers in pre-facelift A4s?
    These pins are the same on 98 and 2000. Which is good, they are in the right places.

    Pin 29, Terminal 58d (external dimmer potentiometer)
    Not a clue what this one does. There is a couple of them on both 98 and 2000 in the blue plug but nothing in Green. so Not sure where this one has to go or even if its needed.

    Next is the Red Plug on 98s.
    Pin 17, Glow plugs.
    I'm not sure where this one goes.
    On the 98 Clocks there is 2 Glow plug pins
    Blue
    13 - Glow period warning lamp or CAT
    Red
    17 - Glow plug relay (on TDI engines the low-voltage monitor in the instrument cluster is disabled while the glow plugs are activated)

    On the 2000 clocks there is 1 glow plug pin
    Blue
    13 - Electronic throttle / glow period warning lamp

    Where does the Red 17 go?

    On my current loom, the glow plug light was acting runny, It would flash at first and then stop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Techniker View Post
    It would probably be easier to fit the later model sump and sensor and wire it to the cluster... as i suspect finding out what the output of the sensor would prove difficult...
    That is the long term plan but short term to get the clocks up and running for now would be to trick it in to thinking it has a sensor.

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    It'll be FAR easier just to fit the sump and sensor than trying to fool it.

    As you say, yank cars dont have immo.

    58d is the dimmer output. One of the dials on the cluster dims the cluster, and also sends the output off round the car to dim the illumination on the dash/switches etc.

    For the glow plugs, i'd leave 13 connected to 13, and ignore 17 as its not mentioned on the 2000 cluster.

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    Bit of a update.

    I went out and had a play with the key that came from the same car as the clocks.
    It never worked, never thought it would but worth a go.
    I need a copy of Vag Commander and VCDS to get theses clocks coded and see if they will work with my ECU. If this does not work, I will have to look in to other options for immob.

    I plugged the original clocks and it still works, so thats good.
    Got some heat in the oil and temp gauges to see if they worked on the new clocks and they do. WooHoo.

    What works:=-
    Oil Temp
    Water Temp
    Bettery voltage
    Fuel Gauge
    Clock
    Door sensors
    Lights
    Dimming
    DIS controls on stalk

    What's not working or unable to test:=-
    Speedo
    Rev counter
    Odo Meter
    DIS for MPG and such
    DIS for auto boxes

    I think that's it. Alot of the above can't be tested cause the car won't start. Once I can start the car and drive it i'll be able to test them.

    Aragorn, TonyA4 is sending me up the sensor from his breaker, so i'll be able to wiring that in to test it.
    Every thing else is waiting on VAG commander or vagtacho.

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    Good stuff mate, keep at it!

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    VAG TACHO 3.01 Dash Correction Tool Vauxhall Opel Immo | eBays the vagtacho i have. works perfectly. can even match your mileage from your old cluster while your there :D
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    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Techniker View Post
    VAG TACHO 3.01 Dash Correction Tool Vauxhall Opel Immo | eBays the vagtacho i have. works perfectly. can even match your mileage from your old cluster while your there :D
    Nice one.

    Trouble is I only need to use it once so a bit begrudging spending money on a one time use device.

    Want to post me yours?

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    Heres a couple of semi good pics



    Oil and temp gauges at the same temp when I took the old clocks out


    parts of the loom I made








    I do hope Byzan never wanted theses clocks back.



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    Quote Originally Posted by scott b5 View Post
    Nice one.

    Trouble is I only need to use it once so a bit begrudging spending money on a one time use device.

    Want to post me yours?
    drop me a pm with your mobi, and we'll see if we cant sort something out
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    Is there any real benefits in changing to the facelift clocks? What extra do they offer?(Apart from slight cosmetic differences)

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  32. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxmeister View Post
    Is there any real benefits in changing to the facelift clocks? What extra do they offer?(Apart from slight cosmetic differences)
    Looks really mate.
    Oil level sensor.
    Door opening warning.
    Digi clock with date.
    and erm.........Thats it. Thats all I know.



    Has any one heard, done or even know about the emergency start you can with the clocks?

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  33. #32
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    E Start with the clocks? elaborate?? i'm intrigued
    Currently rolling in a SKODA!!!

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    there is a way, but it only runs for 40 mins iirc.

    I may know where there is an immo emulator available for immo2. Very possible you could use it to tell the ECU all is fine so the car runs, even if the dash says no.

  35. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Techniker View Post
    E Start with the clocks? elaborate?? i'm intrigued
    in short you attempt to start the car with a key, use the clocks to enter the 4 digit SKC number in to the clocks and the car will start.
    I'll send you the link later mate.

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    I do hope Byzan never wanted theses clocks back.
    Nah it's all good, although did i leave the adjustable pot thingy soldered onto the back by the LCD?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Byzan View Post
    Nah it's all good, although did i leave the adjustable pot thingy soldered onto the back by the LCD?
    There is a chunk of solder on hte back but nothing with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Byzan View Post
    there is a way, but it only runs for 40 mins iirc.

    I may know where there is an immo emulator available for immo2. Very possible you could use it to tell the ECU all is fine so the car runs, even if the dash says no.
    That would be cool.

    Am I right in thinking that my pre-facelift cluster is IMMO1 and the facelift cluster is IMMO2?

    I found a thread about people swapping the IMMO chips over on the ECU to beat reprogramming.

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    facelift is possibly immo3, there seems to be some confusion as to which it is

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    Quote Originally Posted by Byzan View Post
    facelift is possibly immo3, there seems to be some confusion as to which it is
    Hmmm, any ideas how to find out?

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  41. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by scott b5 View Post
    Looks really mate.
    Oil level sensor.
    Door opening warning.
    Digi clock with date.
    and erm.........Thats it. Thats all I know.
    You also get infotainment can-bus, so if you wanted to retrofit RNS-E or Audi bluetooth etc.

    With all these culster swaps you don't have a spare remote key you would sell? I need one for a little project.
    Last edited by B5NUT; 16th October 2011 at 11:17.

 

 
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