JMB RetrofitsEM Tuning
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  1. #1
    gmx
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    Exclamation Upright conversion

    Ok word has gone round that B6/B7 uprights are bolt on for B5 A4.
    Advantages over B5 S4 uprights include mainly include weight.

    Who has actually done this?
    If so, to what year/model/engined car?
    What needed to be done (ie write up)?
    What other parts are required?
    Wheel bearings, hubs, driveshafts????

    What brakes 'kits' are you able to bolt on as a result? Are you able to bolt on anything B5 S4 compatible or B6 A4 compatible?
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  3. #2
    jcb
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    cant see the point of going to the massive cost and hassle of changing an upright to save a few pounds only to add a lot more poundage by adding B7 brakes....when they bolt onto the S4 anyway.....

    if they do fit then I would be surprised if the geometry is the same, but you are looking at least at :

    new outer CV, possibly new shafts, new brake lines.
    save yourself some money and take tha back seat out and go for a dump before you hit the track.........will lose a lot of extra weight

  4. #3
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    S4 Cv's will fit just fine afaik.

    Mark has them fitted to his 1.8TQS (which has the large S4 outers as standard) and the CV's went streight on.

    You need the B6/7 lower arms (well at least one of them) as the balljoint taper is a different size. Top arms are the same.

    The geometry seems fine, however they will lower your car about 10-15mm, as the bearing is mounted higher in the upright in relation to the lower balljoints.

    Brake lines etc are all identical, they really are a drop in swap.

    B6 A4 and B5 S4's are identical in terms of brakes, so you can use the B6 S4/B7RS4 etc setups without any problems.


    JCB: his sig suggests he has a TQS, in which case, if your having to change them anyway to fit S4 (or similar fitment) brakes, then you may as well go B6...

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  5. #4
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    b6/7 FTW, about 5kg perside unsprung weight saving.

    All the other arms were the same bar the lower one, The ball joint was different and the bush for the lower shock needed a spacer as the cenre was narrower.

    TQS has 82mm CVs so will fit direct to S4 or B6/B7 alloy uprights.

  6. #5
    gmx
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    Yup the car is a facelift TQS
    So it will work on a pre-facelift TQS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Byzan A4 View Post
    b6/7 FTW, about 5kg perside unsprung weight saving.

    All the other arms were the same bar the lower one, The ball joint was different and the bush for the lower shock needed a spacer as the cenre was narrower.

    TQS has 82mm CVs so will fit direct to S4 or B6/B7 alloy uprights.

    If we use a B5 S4 lower control arm we probably won't have to use a spacer?
    Afaik, there are two types of B5 S4 lower control arms too, what do you guys reckon?

    In summary we need:

    • B6/B7 upright itself
    • B6 wheel bearing
    • Lower control arm* (B5 RS4/B5 S4(early VIN)/B6/B7)
    • Re use same bolts.
    No changes required to hubs, CVs (driveshafts)
    Last edited by gmx; 12th July 2010 at 03:50.
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  7. #6
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    Only the very last of the S4's had alloy uprights (not early ones like you suggest), but the part number for the lower arm is different to the B6 one, that might be because the upright is different (the B6 alloy uprights have a different part number to the RS4 ones), or it might simply be down to the shock bush having the correct length crushtube.

    B5 S4 shocks are the same width as normal B5 ones, so assuming the control arm from a B5 S4/RS4 with alloy uprights fits the B6 upright, then you wont need a spacer. Alternatively, you might be able to change the bush in the B6 arm to that of a B5, again alleviating the need for a spacer, or go the whole hog and fit a pair of B6 front shocks.

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  8. #7
    jcb
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    5kg lighter? really. that seems like a big difference.
    what is the cost of the B6 upright compared to an b5 upright?

  9. #8
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    The costs are held artifically high on ebay by the traders imo

    Theres tonnes of them about, and not much demand, which generally means they'd be selling for buttons, however most of the traders are listing them for 100-200+ on a buy it now.

    There are the odd ones that pop up circa 40-50quid, and i'd expect if it was a 99p start auction they'd probably sell for about a tenner.

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  10. #9
    gmx
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    What brake 'kits' will I be able to use once the conversion is performed?

    Anything aimed at B5 S4 or B6? Or no difference?
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  11. #10
    "Stick a V8 in it!"

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    No difference.

    Personally i quite like the B6 S4 setup. 345mm disks, with large single piston sliding calipers. Ok its not quite as bling as some 8 pot brembos, but its cheap and effective, and unlike most of the other conversions, you can buy new disks for 50quid and pads are the same as the rest of the B7 A4 range so cheap as chips, and saves you running around with some 65year old RS4 disks that someones had skimmed about 12 times.

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  12. #11
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    The B5 S4 and RS4 brakes are easier to get hold of than the B6 S4.

  13. #12
    "Stick a V8 in it!"

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    B5 S4 brakes are awful though, and there not particularly large as an upgrade, i'd rather fit the standard B6 312mm disks.

    RS4 ones are fine, but the disks are REALLY expensive.

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  14. #13
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    i am determined to get something that will work under my wheels with the 320mm discs. i can use the facelfit S4 callys for paperweights then,lol

  15. #14
    gmx
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    Quote Originally Posted by aragorn View Post
    Only the very last of the S4's had alloy uprights (not early ones like you suggest), but the part number for the lower arm is different to the B6 one, that might be because the upright is different (the B6 alloy uprights have a different part number to the RS4 ones), or it might simply be down to the shock bush having the correct length crushtube.

    B5 S4 shocks are the same width as normal B5 ones, so assuming the control arm from a B5 S4/RS4 with alloy uprights fits the B6 upright, then you wont need a spacer. Alternatively, you might be able to change the bush in the B6 arm to that of a B5, again alleviating the need for a spacer, or go the whole hog and fit a pair of B6 front shocks.
    US Spec early '00 S4 (and I thought pre face lift in the EU) came with Al uprights.
    I might try a lower pair from their "early" cars - I'll post up a pic for confirmation/input.
    I'm not sure about the idea of using a spacer on the B6 arm.


    As for brake kits, I'm also determined to stick around 320mm, not sure 345s will fit under 17s.
    Edit: Just remembered I've got a pair of front HP2 calipers sitting around - pretty sure they came with carriers. So will just go with a slight OEM upgrade for the time being + larger rears.
    Last edited by gmx; 13th July 2010 at 04:22.
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  16. #15
    "Stick a V8 in it!"

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    Ye, and given the S4 was released in 1997 and stopped production mid 2001, an '00 car is certainly not an early car!

    I can check ETKA to see which S4's were supposed to have alloy uprights, but it certainly seems that alloy uprights on normal S4's are the exception rather than the rule over here, even for the later cars, and if anything they were only fitted to the very last of the 2001 models,

    The HP2's are awful calipers, but feel free to do what you want with them. Personally i'd be going with the single piston ATE caliper fitted to higher spec B7's that takes the same 320mm disk

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  17. #16
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    Slightly on-topic, does anybody have a comprehensive list of which cars came with the carriers to allow 312mm discs to be fitted to our standard calipers?

    - TT (225bhp)
    - Leon Cupra R?
    - Mk4 Golf GTI Anniversary?
    - Some B6s?
    - Toledos? Boras? Octavia VRS?


    A4 1.8TQS

  18. #17
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    Afaik its ALL TT's, as they all have 312mm disks. Cupra R has brembos on it i think.

    Mk4 golfs should work ok, as long as its one of the high end models with 312's

    B6's use S4 caliper spacing, so none of them will fit.

    Not a clue on the other cars, but if it has a 312mm disk, and uses the golf platform, its likely it will be the same.

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  19. #18
    jcb
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    330mm is your limit on 17" regardless of whether the caliper can be fitted around it or not.

  20. #19
    jcb
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    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/00-01...Q5fAccessories

    found these, lokk very different with bolt on bearing carriers

  21. #20
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    Yeh, they all have bolt on bearings, you cant really press a bearing into an alloy housing, so the bearings pressed into a steel housing which bolts to the upright.

    ETKA is very vague, and seems to suggest that the Al uprights were used on the S4 facelift models in certain countries, rather than on certain chassis numbers. It has the normal steel ones listed against facelifts with AGB engines, then says "S4: IRL, BR, RA, MEX..." beside the alloy ones, which afaik is country codes, ie Ireland, Brazil, Mexico etc?

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  22. #21
    gmx
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    Thx for checking the ETKA mate.

    The HP2s will be just to tide over till I can find something like Cayenne/Touareg for reasonable price!
    They were hard enough to find and the price was very good. Don't suspect B7 calipers be too common, but I'll put a WTB ad up.
    B7 2.0T calipers are the ones to go for?
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  23. #22
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    Yeah, they use the same discs as the HP2 320mm.

    Its what i want to do but cannot justify the 240 ish to test them incase they dont clear my wheels. For that much i could almost buy some wheels that will work over the facelifts callys i already have

  24. #23
    "Stick a V8 in it!"

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    i'm not sure they're fitted to ALL 2.0T's so if you buy any then i'd be sure to check they are 320mm and not the older 312 caliper

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  25. #24
    gmx
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    Ok,
    1 more question and I hope it's not a PITA. Does the ETKA show you visual differences between the lower control arms re the ball joint taper?
    If so, possibly worth checking B5 RS4 vs B6?

    Thanks very much for clarification on this topic so far guys
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  26. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by aragorn View Post
    Afaik its ALL TT's, as they all have 312mm disks. Cupra R has brembos on it i think.

    Mk4 golfs should work ok, as long as its one of the high end models with 312's

    B6's use S4 caliper spacing, so none of them will fit.

    Not a clue on the other cars, but if it has a 312mm disk, and uses the golf platform, its likely it will be the same.
    Seat toledo v5 170Bhp has 312mm brakes as well, also vw passat v6 tdi from 2001 on(b5.5) and audi a6 2.5 tdi (late v reg 150Bhp and the 180Bhp with the ake engine all in quattro form), audi a6 2.5 tdi 163Bhp from 2000 on FWD...
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  27. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcb View Post
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/00-01...Q5fAccessories

    found these, lokk very different with bolt on bearing carriers
    These are bog standard b6 alloy uprigts, i have changed about a dozen of them wheel bearings...
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  28. #27
    2000 a4 1.8tqs-yellow

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    I put facelift s4 brakes on the front of mine and they are far better than the standard a4 brakes. Maybe not the best brakes ever but still a vast improvement.

  29. #28
    jcb
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    changing my discs and pads for ones made from Edam would have been a vast difference mine were so pants!

  30. #29
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    The wheel bearings are so much easier to change,lol Bolt on, bolt off.

  31. #30
    gmx
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    Assuming the B6 lower arm is the only option, what and how did u use a spacer?
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  32. #31
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    Quick snap from underneath the car. The spacer is no big problem as you can see

  33. #32
    "Stick a V8 in it!"

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    some crossreferencing seems to indicate that the RS4 "4B3 407 151 C" arm is the same cone size as the later B6 arm, and the same length, but will presumably have the correct bush for the B5 shocks.

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  34. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by aragorn View Post
    Ye, and given the S4 was released in 1997 and stopped production mid 2001, an '00 car is certainly not an early car!

    I can check ETKA to see which S4's were supposed to have alloy uprights, but it certainly seems that alloy uprights on normal S4's are the exception rather than the rule over here, even for the later cars, and if anything they were only fitted to the very last of the 2001 models,

    The HP2's are awful calipers, but feel free to do what you want with them. Personally i'd be going with the single piston ATE caliper fitted to higher spec B7's that takes the same 320mm disk
    I am STILL looking for a set of these callipers........does anyone have a link or part numbers for the B6/B7 ones and the discs? many thanks
    there is no such thing as bad weather, just the wrong clothes!!

  35. #34
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    The calipers are available, if you have the money.

    I have seen several sets go for over 200, then you need to buy discs and pads. DOH !! cars huh!

 

 

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