Chris NottEM Tuning
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  1. #1
    A4_DTM's Avatar
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    RS4, RS6 or TTRS injectors on 2.0 TFSI BT ?

    I'm building BT kit on my car, it will consist of Garrett GT3076R .82 A/R and custom manifold. I'm not shure what injectors to put in it ? If I stay on stock S3, I will probably see 390HP but that is optimistic because my tuner is tuning on MAHA 3000 with very strong load which probably never happens on the road. He is not very happy with RS4 injectors because they don't disperse gas like S3 injectors do. This is test of them on the "table" LINK

    More fuel for the fire.We've tested the RS4 injectors during our 2.0T turbo development R&D.
    We first tested them in cars, before we purchased our $8000 ASNU DI injector test stand.
    When in the car, they produce what looks to be much richer air/fuel ratio vs stock or S3. However, after careful analysis, some odd starting and part throttle behavior was traced to their use.
    Upon testing stock, S3, and RS4 injectors in our ASNU test stand, we had some interesting results.
    As you can see from the photo below, the spray pattern of the RS4 injector is very different from the stock and S3 injectors. This alone can contribute to the starting and part throttle issues:


    What was even more interesting were the measured flow rates:
    Stock = 1080 cc/min
    RS4 = 1091 cc/min
    S3 = 1217 cc/min

    For all intents and purposes, the RS4 injectors flow about the same as stock 2.0T FSI injectors. This makes sense when you do a hp per cylinder calculation between the two engines. We also confirmed our results after contacting Hitachi directly.
    The rich air/fuel exhaust reading seems to be an anomaly possibly related to incomplete combustion due to the wrong spray pattern. The peculiarities of direct injection behavior vs conventional injection behavior are still being learned.
    Either way, the exhaust gas readings are a false positive as confirmed by our bench testing. Unknowingly, software tuners may be pushing things way leaner than they intended just going off of wideband readings!
    What we also found is that a mass marketed transverse K04 kit out there is indeed using RS4 injectors. We had a client come to us with running issues, and a first hand test of his injectors confirmed this.
    Are there any other injectors that have same impedance as S3 and that they flow more gas at 110 bar ? For example RS6 or TTRS injectors that are designed for turbo engine ?
    Last edited by A4_DTM; 23rd April 2010 at 17:33.
    S3 2008, GT3076R 0.64 @ 1.55 bar, custom tubular manifold, Milltek TB decated, Autotech FSI pump, RS3 intank pump, RS4 injectors, RS4 hp rail valve, custom Twintercooler, AWE CCB intake. Forge DV, Forge OCC, LOBA SMF Clutch kit // REVO stage 4 dyno tuned >> 441.4HP, 499NM // H&R springs. whiteline Anti-lift kit and rear 24mm ARB // WOT box // KEI force 10 gunmetal 18'' wheels // Facelift rear lights // tinted windows // LED interieur & exterieur








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  3. #2
    warren_S5's Avatar
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    I thought the S3 injectors were good for nearly 400bhp??

    What kind of power are you looking for in your car?

    There's a bloke on VAGOC whose signature states he has 500bhp but I have no idea what injectors he's running.
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  4. #3
    A4_DTM's Avatar
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    Well now it will have about 400hp because I don't want to go over that on stock engine (for now )... but I don't want that injectors are working on 99% of their capatibilitys so that is why I would like to install some other injectors
    S3 2008, GT3076R 0.64 @ 1.55 bar, custom tubular manifold, Milltek TB decated, Autotech FSI pump, RS3 intank pump, RS4 injectors, RS4 hp rail valve, custom Twintercooler, AWE CCB intake. Forge DV, Forge OCC, LOBA SMF Clutch kit // REVO stage 4 dyno tuned >> 441.4HP, 499NM // H&R springs. whiteline Anti-lift kit and rear 24mm ARB // WOT box // KEI force 10 gunmetal 18'' wheels // Facelift rear lights // tinted windows // LED interieur & exterieur








  5. #4
    KRL
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    My understanding was that the RS4 injectors should be good. REVO recommend the RS4 and R8 injectors for their stage 3 software on the S3. Here are REVO's HW requirements:
    Required Hardware
    GT3071R Turbo plus installation components
    VAG RS4/R8 spec injectors
    Cold Air intake (from turbo inlet pipe to front of car replacing factory airbox for best gains)
    3.0"Turbo back exhaust without pre-cat and with decat or highflow catalytic convertor (DP comes with turbo kit)
    Uprated or additional Intercooler
    Uprated High Pressure Fuel Pump

    I do not have any experience of the RS4 injectors myself but I know that JonnyC has been running them and not had any issues at silly BHP.
    Ice Silver S3 + every single option + REVO + BSH Street Can + Forge Twintake + Autotech


  6. #5
    KRL
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    APR do make their own injectors as well which are supplied with their stage 3 kit. They should be good for 500 BHP:



    APR Injectors

    APR includes another unmatched achievement in FSI fueling technology by way of our uprated injectors that provide more fuel than any other available FSI injector. Early on in FSI development with VWGoA for the RGTi, APR's engineers determined the future of FSI performance modifications would require flow rates capable of achieving 500hp. APR set out to form strategic relationships with Tier 1 suppliers to the OEM's to develop processes and controls for a larger FSI injector. After 2 years of refinement, APR is proud to offer these injectors in our Stage III turbocharger upgrade systems for the first time to the general public.
    I do not think they are available separately to the stage 3 kit though.
    Ice Silver S3 + every single option + REVO + BSH Street Can + Forge Twintake + Autotech


  7. #6
    akash_sky1's Avatar
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    I would have thought injectors designed to run in a forced induction engine such as in TT-RS would be much more suitable. With an engine that has both high compression ratio and pressurized intake I woudn't have thought injectors designed for an N/A would be capable of proper distribution thru more highly pressurized gas.
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  8. #7
    A4_DTM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by akash_sky1 View Post
    I would have thought injectors designed to run in a forced induction engine such as in TT-RS would be much more suitable. With an engine that has both high compression ratio and pressurized intake I woudn't have thought injectors designed for an N/A would be capable of proper distribution thru more highly pressurized gas.
    Just checked with jonnyc, TTRS and RS6 injectors don't fit
    S3 2008, GT3076R 0.64 @ 1.55 bar, custom tubular manifold, Milltek TB decated, Autotech FSI pump, RS3 intank pump, RS4 injectors, RS4 hp rail valve, custom Twintercooler, AWE CCB intake. Forge DV, Forge OCC, LOBA SMF Clutch kit // REVO stage 4 dyno tuned >> 441.4HP, 499NM // H&R springs. whiteline Anti-lift kit and rear 24mm ARB // WOT box // KEI force 10 gunmetal 18'' wheels // Facelift rear lights // tinted windows // LED interieur & exterieur








  9. #8
    PH1L's Avatar
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    dans s3 (the vagoc one talked about) is running rs4 injectors with over 500bhp


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  10. #9
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    The information they shared is not correct.

    RS4 injectors outflow the S3 injectors when testing at the proper fuel pressure. Their junior injector test stand is not capable of testing at the correct operating pressure. The formula they used to calculate the flow rates at the proper pressure is incorrect.

    Unmodified S3 injectors are not capable of flowing as much fuel as the RS4 injectors, therefor your potential to make more power on s3 injectors will be lower than RS4 injectors.


    The RS4 Spray patterns is not perfectly designed for the 2.0T FSI and as such has some side effects. The spray pattern is in no way a benefit and in no way makes it a better option.

  11. #10
    S3Alex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitronic View Post
    The information they shared is not correct.

    RS4 injectors outflow the S3 injectors when testing at the proper fuel pressure. Their junior injector test stand is not capable of testing at the correct operating pressure. The formula they used to calculate the flow rates at the proper pressure is incorrect.

    Unmodified S3 injectors are not capable of flowing as much fuel as the RS4 injectors, therefor your potential to make more power on s3 injectors will be lower than RS4 injectors.


    The RS4 Spray patterns is not perfectly designed for the 2.0T FSI and as such has some side effects. The spray pattern is in no way a benefit and in no way makes it a better option.
    Thread exhumation!

    I agree that the RS4 injectors at correct pressures are capable of flowing significantly more fuel,and those of us running RS4 injectors with big turbos have found them to be capable of over 500bhp,and probably up to 580bhp before they start to hit the limits,after which you need something like a Stg2 Sorensen manifold with extra injectors and off board ECU.

    For sure also,the spray pattern is not optimal,and this is something that APR used to make much of when bashing them,but depsite that,they do work,and there are few alternatives.

 

 

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