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  1. #1
    Blueie's Avatar
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    Advantages and disadvantages of a DSG box

    Right im hunting for a new A3. My previous one has gone to Audi heaven due to an old man coming down the slip road the wrong way onto a motorway!

    Iv seen a couple with DSG but iv had some friends saying stay clear and others saying its the best box going! But when things go worng on them the cost an arm and a leg!!

    Soooo what are the advantages and disadvantages??

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  3. #2
    rickyquicky's Avatar
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    Well i've got DSG in my car and its the first auto car ive owned and honestly cannot fault it in any way.

    Ive driven other autos with sluggish gearchange etc but the DSG is another class altogether, shifts gears quicker than any manual could and its very smooth. Not heard of any problems with the DSG boxes either, I thought they had a reputation for being a good reliable 'box?

    The only possible disadvantage I can think of is they fact it needs its oil changed every so often...but then a manual needs its clutch changing which im sure is even more money than the DSG oil change.

    Get one!

  4. #3
    Blueie's Avatar
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    Thanks!! You confirm my thoughts about it! BUT as yo9u mention the oil change, how often do you have to do that and cost?
    I cant read, an i cant write. But thats ok! Cause im from the west country and i can drive a tractor!

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  5. #4
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    Cant remember exactly mate, but its roughly between every 40,000 and 60,000 miles. My cars on 70,000 miles and its only had 1 DSG oil change so far. Unless ive missed a load of them lol.

    As for cost, again not exact, but its approx 200. A clutch is going to be 300 plus I would have thought.

  6. #5
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    I like my DSG a lot and I'm glad I got it, however here are some points to consider that aren't in the VW/Audi marketing brochures:

    1: While the DSG gearchange can be very fast it's not entirely predictable because the computer has to have correctly guessed which gear you're going to shift into next. Meaning that if you're in manual mode accelerating in 3rd and the computer's preselected 4th when you shift up it will be very fast (just like you expect), HOWEVER if instead you let off and suddenly downshift (let say to loosen the tail as you enter a turn ) the DSG unit will be caught off guard and it will have to deselect 4th, select 2nd, and only THEN perform it's lightning quick shift. All of this occurs fairly quickly (faster than most people shift a manual) however it's not as fast as you expected and it's not entirely predictable. To summarize; you can't be sure what gear the DSG has preselected, therefore you can't be sure exactly how long it will take to shift. For a normal enthusiast driver this isn't a big problem, but I can see that for some control freaks it might be maddening.

    2: If the DSG is in D, S, or Manual even if you're stopped with your foot on the brake the clutches are lightly engaged - sapping a bit of engine power - just like a traditional slush box. Of course it's not doing any harm, our DSGs have wet clutches with a transmission oil cooler, so they can gently ride their clutches all day without overheating. But it is a little off putting to a traditional manual driver to know that he's essentially being forced to ride the clutch anytime the car is stopped in gear.

    3: The DSG requires constant hydraulic pressure and the clutches are wet. Both of these things sap energy meaning that in theory there may be worse mileage and power. In practice I suspect the speed of gear changes more than makes up for the power deficit and the computer always putting the car in the best gear more than makes up for the mileage deficit.

    4: The DSG will upshift in manual mode on it's own before it hits redline. It will also downshift if rpm drops near idle. It will also downshift if you fully press down the accelerator to the point of triggering the kickdown button (the extra step you can feel past full throttle on the accelerator). This means that if you're in manual at 2krpm in 6th and mash the accelerator, the transmission will downshift (kickdown) to 4th. None of these are bad things, it's just that you have to accept that DSG manual mode does not give you the same absolute control as a traditional manual.
    Last edited by Hubec; 9th March 2010 at 02:07.

  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hubec View Post
    I like my DSG a lot and I'm glad I got it, however here are some points to consider that aren't in the VW/Audi marketing brochures:

    1: While the DSG gearchange can be very fast it's not entirely predictable because the computer has to have correctly guessed which gear you're going to shift into next. Meaning that if you're in manual mode accelerating in 3rd and the computer's preselected 4th when you shift up it will be very fast (just like you expect), HOWEVER if instead you let off and suddenly downshift (let say to loosen the tail as you enter a turn ) the DSG unit will be caught off guard and it will have to deselect 4th, select 2nd, and only THEN perform it's lightning quick shift. All of this occurs fairly quickly (faster than most people shift a manual) however it's not as fast as you expected and it's not entirely predictable. To summarize; you can't be sure what gear the DSG has preselected, therefore you can't be sure exactly how long it will take to shift. For a normal enthusiast driver this isn't a big problem, but I can see that for some control freaks it might be maddening.
    You have to learn how the DSG's behavior and try to trick it so that it will do what you want to do. If you are accelerating and all of a sudden, you want to downshift, you could release the throttle, then maybe put your foot on the throttle a bit so that the DSG thinks you want accelerate and will select a lower gear instead of a higher gear. This might take the same amount of time as the DSG's mis-predicted shift, but you might have more time on the throttle this way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hubec View Post
    4: The DSG will upshift in manual mode on it's own before it hits redline. It will also downshift if rpm drops near idle. It will also downshift if you fully press down the accelerator to the point of triggering the kickdown button (the extra step you can feel past full throttle on the accelerator). This means that if you're in manual at 2krpm in 6th and mash the accelerator, the transmission will downshift (kickdown) to 4th. None of these are bad things, it's just that you have to accept that DSG manual mode does not give you the same absolute control as a traditional manual.
    DSG will actually shift from 6th to 5th to 4th, anyway, basically, with the kickdown, the DSG can know what gear it wants to be and skip gears. e.g. If you are in 6th gear and you hit the kickdown, the DSG might think an appropriate would be 2nd gear. It will quickly downshift to the pre-selected 5th gear, and the other half of the transmission would change from 6th to 2nd and the clutch would switch from 5th to 2nd. If you were in manual mode and you pull the downshift flappy, your downshift would likely be going from 6th to 5th to 4th to 3rd to 2nd. Although if you pull it fast enough, you might get the DSG to skip multiple gears, but it is a hit and miss.
    Last edited by LWNY; 9th March 2010 at 04:08.

  8. #7
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    I have opted for DSG on my newly ordered car, so hoping that I can live with it on a day to day basis. A test drive is never enough to fully see how well you will like it. However as I get older, 23 years driving and traffic jams get worse, I get fed up constantly doing leg exercises with the clutch pedal. So I decided even if there are a few downsides to it, I will in time appreciate the lesser work rate.
    Looking forward to Late April when I get to find out in the flesh whether I have made a mistake or not !!
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  9. #8
    I agree with most of what has been said so far. I owned a total of 23 cars in 44 years of driving. The first 19 were all with a manual gearbox including 4 A3s. My last 3 cars, again all A3s have all had a DSG gearbox and I would never want to go back to an 'old-fashioned' manual. I tend to drive 95% of the time in 'manual' mode using the paddles to change gear and it makes driving very enjoyable. When I end up stuck in a traffic jam I just move the centre lever to D and let the car sort it's out as necessary. The speed of the up changes and the blip of the throttle on the down changes still bring I smile to my face.

    I have had no problems at all with any of the 3 DSGs I've owned and as I tend to change to a new car every 3 years any problems would be covered by the warranty anyway. The oil change on the DSG is due at 60,km or 38,000 miles and again I have never had to have the done. The highest mileage I've so far done in any of my DSG equipped As is 36,700 miles.
    Dave R (h5djr)
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  10. #9
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    i have had about 8 cars with dsg gearboxes A3 / A4 / golf gti . over the last 5 years and love them .
    yes there are the odd occasions where you would love a manual box but overall i would say go for the dsg everytime .
    but its each there own , so until you have one for a few months to make your mind up its a hard call .
    all my cars were new company cars every 6 months so dont think i am rich lol .

  11. #10
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    If I had a daily commute I would seriously consider DSG. However (fortunately) I don't.

    One of my main complaints with VAG cars is that they can be a bit soulless if you enjoy driving for the sake of driving (not just getting from A to B).

    I test drove the new 7 speed DSG in the Ibiza Bocanegra at SEAT UK's press day last October, and whilst it was incredibly accomplished and lightening fast, I found it to further numb the experience of 'driving'.

    I have enormous respect for the system, and it is undoubtedly a superior way to change gear than my clunky arm, but I still find myself enjoying stirring the cogs on a spirited drive. It's the interaction with the mechanics, and feeling like you are part of the driving process that appeals to me. When driving DSG it felt just a touch Forza Motorsport. That said I can imagine having both hands on the wheel on track can be handy.

    A commuters dream I guess, but for now it's an encroachment too far for me (until FULL manual override ever becomes an option).
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  12. #11
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    There has got to be a reason that Bugatti and Porsche now have DSG in their cars when they could quite easily just offer normal auto or manual. Its probably cus its better! I love my dsg and I would never consider going for a manual now! Glad you made the right choice.

  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by PTTM View Post
    There has got to be a reason that Bugatti and Porsche now have DSG in their cars when they could quite easily just offer normal auto or manual. Its probably cus its better! I love my dsg and I would never consider going for a manual now! Glad you made the right choice.
    The sales guy at Porsche Reading said that nearly 70% of Porker 911 Turbo's are sold as automatics because in general they are bought by well paid overweight executives as weekend toys rather than track day tools. Plus the manufacturers can earn a few more quid speccing the option which is fair game for them. I think better is an overstatement, it's personal preference.
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  14. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by warrencox View Post
    I test drove the new 7 speed DSG in the Ibiza Bocanegra at SEAT UK's press day last October, and whilst it was incredibly accomplished and lightening fast, I found it to further numb the experience of 'driving'.

    I have enormous respect for the system, and it is undoubtedly a superior way to change gear than my clunky arm, but I still find myself enjoying stirring the cogs on a spirited drive. It's the interaction with the mechanics, and feeling like you are part of the driving process that appeals to me. When driving DSG it felt just a touch Forza Motorsport. That said I can imagine having both hands on the wheel on track can be handy.
    Presumably you would prefer a car without power steering and power assisted brakes as hese too 'numb' the sense of driving. Also one assumes non-canelling indicators, no auto-lights or wipers, no auto dimming interior or door mirrors, no cruise control etc etc. The DSG is just a modern version of a gearbox. A manual gearbox and clutch are very old fashioned.
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  15. #14
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    You guys are one of the lucky ones who can afford to change cars every 3 years but the ones who buy the cars from you will get a "tin of worms" bursting open. No matter what dealer tells you, its still an auto box, needs maintenance and when it goes wrong (google mechatronic DSG failure) it means big bucks to fix - ussualy a new/factory recconditioned box. As mentioned, they are fitting them boxes so fatso executives can do a traffic light drag race every once in a while to impress their teenager secretary so she'll drop knickers quicker ! There is no better auto than CVT (but they go wrong due to poor materials used) and no more reliable box than a manual !
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  16. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by h5djr View Post
    Presumably you would prefer a car without power steering and power assisted brakes as hese too 'numb' the sense of driving. Also one assumes non-canelling indicators, no auto-lights or wipers, no auto dimming interior or door mirrors, no cruise control etc etc. The DSG is just a modern version of a gearbox. A manual gearbox and clutch are very old fashioned.
    I appreciate that you don't care too much for my opinions Dave (as they usually sit somewhere along the lines of the polar opposite of yours), but I've acknowledged what I believe to be great benefits of the DSG system above.

    It is interesting that you seem to take such umbrage when forum members (probably others too) have an alternative preference to yours. I like all sorts of progress, but in this case wanted to provide a devils advocate view from a non owners perspective (what forums are about), and not just a 'I'm part of the club, lets blow smoke up our own @r$e$' kind of viewpoint. I am often critical, but always fair (and usually one of the first to put my hands up if I've misjudged something).

    For the record I don't care for auto wipers, they're more of a hindrance than a help, and the steering in these cars I find pretty over-servoed. There are distinct differences between convenience motoring (e.g. all the options you spec above), and driving (I'll make the point again).
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  17. #16
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    DSG boxes are very good, i have one in my TDI 140.

    DSG and a cheeky remap, and paddle shift can make a boring diesel to a pretty good drive on twisties.

    As people have said, if they go wrong then they are expensive to fix, the DSG service is around 180 at a local dealer. I have just had mine done by a ex VAG mechanic and only charged me for the oil. I think he said the oil was around 80 - 100.

    Do it.


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  18. #17
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    Pros and Cons to both....

    I think it also depends on what engine you mate it to - my 2.0 TDi isn't the same drive as an S3, but there are times I just love my DSG and times it annoys me and I wish for a manual box.

    As an "automatic" for normal town or motorway queue driving, its brilliant.
    As a "good feeling" generator, accelerating down a motorway slip road and using the paddles to go up through the grars - its real fun.
    When trying to pull out from a junction quickly, especially when its cold - its a pain, because you can't rely on the clutch "engagement" and being as slick as you could control it manually. I have to wait for bigger gaps in the traiffic than I would do in a manual....
    When approaching a fast moving roundabout and trying to slot into a gap in the traffic, its a nightmare because there are times you end up with no power, in neutral for 2 seconds or so, whilst it tries to decide what gear you really need. It seems to get confused when you slow down to match your speed to the speed of traffic on the roundabout and then try to accelerate again to get into the approaching gap. If you remember every time, you drop the gears manually approaching fast roundabouts to ensure that you're always in a gear when you need power....
    When going up or down a mountain pass road (well not really a mountain, Snake Pass in the Peak District, but you get the idea...), the automatic "hunts" to find the right gear, with all the changes in gradient, as you'd expect of an auto, so that's not great.
    I expected this to be when the manual mode excelled, using the paddles to enthusiastically drive the "pass" road. Its good and its easier to use the paddles to change gear than having to use the clutch pedal, but after you've done it a couple of times the magic wears off and a manual box would be just as fulfilling and easy.

    So I'd come to the conclusion that I'd get a manual box next time - but then I had a manual courtesy car for a day last week whilst mine was in for a cambelt change - and now I've realised just how much I do enjoy the good bits of the DSG box and that overall I prefer it to the manual box.
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  19. #18
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    There are pros to a manual, and cons, they are pros to the DSG and cons! I ordered mine is DSG, because at the time I was doing alot of commuting, alot of travelling back home at weekends etc. To be honest, I am more settled in my life now, and don't really need the DSG. But I "do" need it. The sportback is a fair size, and for me, bigger cars are more enjoyable when they are automatic/dsg.

    Traffic is crap in Manchester all the time, and its nice that the left foot can have a rest, the paddles are fun too, but the diesel isn't really high reving so even in sport it changes up just over 4K. But I love the DSG box, gives great flexability, and is really rewarding, perfect to me, and don't regret it 1 bit.

  20. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by warrencox View Post
    I appreciate that you don't care too much for my opinions Dave (as they usually sit somewhere along the lines of the polar opposite of yours), but I've acknowledged what I believe to be great benefits of the DSG system above.

    It is interesting that you seem to take such umbrage when forum members (probably others too) have an alternative preference to yours. I like all sorts of progress, but in this case wanted to provide a devils advocate view from a non owners perspective (what forums are about), and not just a 'I'm part of the club, lets blow smoke up our own @r$e$' kind of viewpoint. I am often critical, but always fair (and usually one of the first to put my hands up if I've misjudged something).

    For the record I don't care for auto wipers, they're more of a hindrance than a help, and the steering in these cars I find pretty over-servoed. There are distinct differences between convenience motoring (e.g. all the options you spec above), and driving (I'll make the point again).
    You wrong and I'm not taking 'umbrage' as you put it. I do accept that some people like a modern gearbox and some like a box that been around since even I began driving and has has little done to it since. What I don't accept is that a manual gearbox provides a better driving experience that a DSG in 'manual' mode. There does seem to be the view among some members that to be a 'man' and a 'real driver' you have to drive a car with a manual gearbox.

    I have driven many thousands of miles in cars equipped with a manual gearbox over 40 or so years. some were good and some no so good. I have also now driven three A3s with a DSG some 80,000 miles over the last six years and to me the DSG is so much better than having to keep playing with a clutch pedal and provides a very enjoyable driving experience.

    I have driven on the motorway, on normal A and B roads, country lanes, Autoroutes and other roads in France, Autobahns and other roads in Germany and on mountain passes in Switzerland and Austria. I have driven all in various A3s both with a manual gearbox and a DSG gearbox and I have no doubt in my mind which is the better gearbox in all situations.

    I've also had my fair share of problems with manual gearboxes in the past. Even one of early A3s had to have new syncormesh hubs fitted so manual gearboxes are not without there problems. A DSG may be more expensive to fix that a manual but the wet clutches in the six speed version are supposed to last the life of the car and the inside of the actual gearbox part of a DSG is very little different to a manual gearbox unlike some more conventional automatics. Yes there is the control side of things but I consider the extra 1400 currently charged by Audi and VW for the DSG to be well worth it and I shall probably never have a car more than 3-4 years old. After that it will be someone else's problem. I don't buy my cars to suit future owners. As long as I get a good trade-in price when I want to change that's what matters to me and so far I have always got a premium for the car having the DSG.
    Dave R (h5djr)
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    A3 8V 2.0 TDI-184 Sportback Sport s-tronic quattro - Silver + lots of options - my 9th A3

  21. #20
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    Mines a DSG and I love it. Oil change is 186 every 40k miles. I had a BMW 530d auto and the DSG just runs rings around it, the Beamer was slow to change so mph was poor!!! The Audi is quick and crisp and soooo smooth, go for it, you will love it!!!!


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  22. #21
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    Dave: Just out of interest, how long ago were the wheels on your car designed; and come to think of it, how long ago were you desgined? I guess both those things are obsolete now right?

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  23. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by h5djr View Post
    You wrong and I'm not taking 'umbrage' as you put it.
    Shall we re-phrase that as my misinterpretation rather than being plain 'wrong'? I'm sure I'm not the first person to challenge you as to your view of the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by h5djr View Post
    I do accept that some people like a modern gearbox and some like a box that been around since even I began driving and has has little done to it since.
    Why has time got anything to do with personal preference - either a system works or it doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by h5djr View Post
    What I don't accept is that a manual gearbox provides a better driving experience that a DSG in 'manual' mode. There does seem to be the view among some members that to be a 'man' and a 'real driver' you have to drive a car with a manual gearbox.
    I take no issue with the fact that you don't accept it, but please just try to remember your view is not the LAW; every view point is valid. Where have I posted above that DSG's are driven by limp wristed incompetents? I haven't.

    Quote Originally Posted by h5djr View Post
    I have driven many thousands of miles in cars equipped with a manual gearbox over 40 or so years. some were good and some no so good. I have also now driven three A3s with a DSG some 80,000 miles over the last six years and to me the DSG is so much better than having to keep playing with a clutch pedal and provides a very enjoyable driving experience.

    I have driven on the motorway, on normal A and B roads, country lanes, Autoroutes and other roads in France, Autobahns and other roads in Germany and on mountain passes in Switzerland and Austria. I have driven all in various A3s both with a manual gearbox and a DSG gearbox and I have no doubt in my mind which is the better gearbox in all situations.

    I've also had my fair share of problems with manual gearboxes in the past. Even one of early A3s had to have new syncormesh hubs fitted so manual gearboxes are not without there problems. A DSG may be more expensive to fix that a manual but the wet clutches in the six speed version are supposed to last the life of the car and the inside of the actual gearbox part of a DSG is very little different to a manual gearbox unlike some more conventional automatics. Yes there is the control side of things but I consider the extra 1400 currently charged by Audi and VW for the DSG to be well worth it and I shall probably never have a car more than 3-4 years old.
    See a pattern there Dave; I have, I have, I have. Part of my day job focuses round collaborative working techniques, mentoring and people development programmes, and I hope that provides me with the qualification to provide a little perspective here. Whilst 'you have' done some things, and those things provide you with a personal opinion and preference, those interpretations again serve your means to your end. You have no doubt in your mind which is the better gearbox: For you or for me? Am I entitled to an opinion, or do I need to bow to your seven A3's opinion. Call me sceptical, but personally I don't see A3 ownership as a yard stick for 'expertise' in anything. In fact I keep an open mind in the hope I may learn something new every day. If I were Gordon Murray would you be ramming your opinion home if I had a personal preference to have a manual stick in my left hand? Please try to see the boundaries of where opinions end, and facts start, that's all I am asking here. I am really pleased that you are basing your personal perspective on your opinions rather than misinformation, but it's the way you present your opinion as the only credible solution that I find just a little bit uncomfortable.

    Quote Originally Posted by h5djr View Post
    After that it will be someone else's problem. I don't buy my cars to suit future owners. As long as I get a good trade-in price when I want to change that's what matters to me and so far I have always got a premium for the car having the DSG.
    So lets do the maths, you pay more, then you get a premium on resale for your continuous A3 ownership journey,; yes, that adds up. The phrase 'It will be someone else's problem' is fair, but then on reflection if I sell my car with Stg2+ on it I personally would want it to work for the next enthusiast who bought in to it; ultimately I can't be stepping in to bail them out, but I wish them all the best of car health and good running. It's that 'I, me, my' attitude which I personally think causes so much damage between the generations (my parents have become the same), and is almost pulsing through Britain like a cancer (I'm alright Jack, feck everyone else).

    I know you're going to read this post as a dig Dave, and I don't want you to. It's a plight and a polite request to ask you to consider that there is space for a range of opinions (none of which are right or wrong, they can co-exist). Then just maybe, through open minded collaborative debate we can all continue to add value to this great forum, and as a result pay our dues and respect back to those who sacrifice their time to give us this facility.

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  24. #23
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    In fairness the guy asked for personal opinions so " I have" is quite relevant....

    "I have" lost count of the number of people who have destroyed manual clutches on here with the first sign of a remap. This would indicate to me that audi dont build much of a safety margin in to their std set ups. This would be a reason i would go for DSG every time in a S3. that said its just down to personal opinion and experience. If i had to give the two main selling points of the A3 i would say DSG and 4WD. i just wish that they made a Diesel A3 with both because it would be top of the range in drivability.............. and price !!!! and i suspect that is why they don't do it.
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  25. #24
    rickyquicky's Avatar
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    Just to add my opinion...

    People looking for a 'purer' driving experience will probably prefer a manual if that is what they want the car for, and it probably offers better MPG too. The DSG box is good like I said earlier, and you can have a sporty drive when the mood takes you, but nothing can beat the ultimate control from a manual box if you take driving that seriously, but even for people who just like a drive manuals do give a more involving drive. And some people like that. Some people like the everyday comfort of an auto but with the benefits of the DSG type auto.

    At the end of the day it depends on just how far into the drive you want to be involved, most people who just like a blast every now and then wont care for a manual, but manuals are the ultimate really for a 'drivers' car. And theres nothing macho about that - its just the level of control with the clutch and box that a manual gives. Having total control of the gears and clutch is another level of control over the car. Like control over the accelerator, and the steering and brakes - the gears and clutch add another level of involvement and I can see why people enjoy that. The more control you have the more satisfaction you can take when you get it all right as you can take the credit - not the car.

    If as 'Warrencox' said there was a proper manual override for the DSG, it may be a different story.

    My other car is a manual and is a much much more satisfying as a 'sporty' fun drive, but then my A3 DSG is a much more satisfying cruiser, and can have some fun when the mood takes me. So whatever floats your boat, both are good systems
    Last edited by rickyquicky; 9th March 2010 at 17:54.

  26. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by paddy View Post
    In fairness the guy asked for personal opinions so " I have" is quite relevant....
    As long as you don't blur opinion with fact, then yes it is.
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  27. #26
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    Hey boys......calm down.... lets just answer Blueie without falling out or upsetting anyone. This is a great forum with great people with lots of knowledge that I am loving learning from. Nothing seems to much to ask and everyone really does their best to help....brilliant. All points are valid just be nice...... xxxxxxx
    Last edited by Sarah's A3; 9th March 2010 at 18:29.


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  28. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by paddy View Post
    In fairness the guy asked for personal opinions so " I have" is quite relevant....

    "I have" lost count of the number of people who have destroyed manual clutches on here with the first sign of a remap. This would indicate to me that audi dont build much of a safety margin in to their std set ups. This would be a reason i would go for DSG every time in a S3. that said its just down to personal opinion and experience. If i had to give the two main selling points of the A3 i would say DSG and 4WD. i just wish that they made a Diesel A3 with both because it would be top of the range in drivability.............. and price !!!! and i suspect that is why they don't do it.
    Its not really fair to compare how remapped cars cope with auto or manual though is it? The problem I think is that its much easier to abuse a manual than an auto.

    And cant you get the TDI 170 with quattro and DSG?

  29. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by warrencox View Post
    For the record I don't care for auto wipers, they're more of a hindrance than a help, and the steering in these cars I find pretty over-servoed. There are distinct differences between convenience motoring (e.g. all the options you spec above), and driving (I'll make the point again).
    Who needs ABS right? Better to modulate the brakes ourselves. And who cares about EBD, just give me 4 brake pedals so that I could manually control the brake force to each wheel.

    Plus, who cares about quattro and its gizmos, just give me 2 gas pedals so I could control how much acceleration goes to the front and back wheels. Heck, who cares about Audi's torque vectoring Sports differential, give me 4 gas pedals so I could torque vector the car myself.

    And why accept the industry standard of 1 steering wheel when we all know the inside wheel turns at a tighter radius than the outer wheel. Give me 2 steering wheels so I could have greater control of each wheel's steering. Heck, give me 4 steering wheel so that I could have 4 wheel steering like the latest cars.

    Who needs synchros in the manual transmission. I want to be able to spool up that cog on my own, how fast I want to spool it up and with how much force. Give me a crank knob for each of the gear that's in the transmission.

    Quote Originally Posted by warrencox View Post
    The sales guy at Porsche Reading said that nearly 70% of Porker 911 Turbo's are sold as automatics because in general they are bought by well paid overweight executives as weekend toys rather than track day tools. Plus the manufacturers can earn a few more quid speccing the option which is fair game for them. I think better is an overstatement, it's personal preference.
    The track cars benefit more from DSG than the fat cats. As far as they care, it could be a slushbox that they control flappy paddles with.
    Last edited by LWNY; 9th March 2010 at 18:09.

  30. #29
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    I was FORCED to consider a self-shifter for my daily driver, because of gradually spreading arthritis in my wrist.

    At first I viewed this as a 'sentence', then I tried a few auto transmissions, and found that the DSG is by far and away the best self-shifting tranny which I've ever experienced. That includes CVT/Multitronic etc.

    Now I still own two manual-box cars also, and one of them is a turbo Porker. When I'm no longer able to drive it, I will probably be tired of life... until then, I LOVE rowing the gears as much as the next man.

    I accept that stirring the cogs 'involves' a driver more in the vehicle by the nature of the haptics involved. Even driving a DSG with the paddles doesn't feel the same... But that IN NO WAY makes the DSG experience 'worse'. -It makes it 'different'.

    When I replace this car, I'll be buying another DSG, unless someone invents and brings to market something EVEN BETTER before then.

    As for the DSG up-shifting if you try to bang it against the rev-limiter, I still fail to comprehend why this is a 'problem'. I can't think of an instance where I'd like the rev-limiter to shunt the drivetrain just for the sake of staying in gear. Manual or automatic, the only times I ever bounce off the rev limiter is when I've missed an upshift... and for those times, I'm personally happy for the DSG upshifting for me, and covering my cack-handedness. -For those who WANT the box to hold a gear (for dyno runs etc.), I believe that if you HOLD the paddle down when you shift into gear in manual mode, this inhibits upshifts until the paddle is released. -that seems fair enough to me.

    So... if you need an auto, the DSG is absolutely blissful. -My wife has a Mercedes slush-o-matic, and I bless my good fortune for not having to drive a transmission like that every day, even though it's not a terrible tranny by auto-box standards.

    Cog-rowing using the gear-spoon has its charm. I love it in the right car. -But DSG has its places, and one of those places is in my daily driver.

    Keith

  31. #30
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    What a stupid set of examples. The point was made about things that work just fine (like a manual box, manual windscreen wipers, etc) are usually just as good as their 'auto' counterparts.

    Did you read the part that said 'convenience' as opposed to 'driving'?

    Some people dont need everything to be done for them.

    Also, track cars do not benefit from DSG a sequential box would be a much better choice for a track car. If were talking Porsche, then Fatcats who want a Porsche track car that is easy to drive may benefit from PDK, as long as it has a proper manual override. And even then we could then argue all day about weight, response, control etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by LWNY View Post
    Who needs ABS right? Better to modulate the brakes ourselves. And who cares about EBD, just give me 4 brake pedals so that I could manually control the brake force to each wheel.

    Plus, who cares about quattro and its gizmos, just give me 2 gas pedals so I could control how much acceleration goes to the front and back wheels. Heck, who cares about Audi's torque vectoring Sports differential, give me 4 gas pedals so I could torque vector the car myself.

    And why accept the industry standard of 1 steering wheel when we all know the inside wheel turns at a tighter radius than the outer wheel. Give me 2 steering wheels so I could have greater control of each wheel's steering. Heck, give me 4 steering wheel so that I could have 4 wheel steering like the latest cars.

    Who needs synchros in the manual transmission. I want to be able to spool up that cog on my own, how fast I want to spool it up and with how much force. Give me a crank knob for each of the gear that's in the transmission.


    The track cars benefit more from DSG than the fat cats. As far as they care, it could be a slushbox that they control flappy paddles with.
    Last edited by rickyquicky; 9th March 2010 at 18:29.

  32. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by LWNY View Post
    Who needs ABS right? Better to modulate the brakes ourselves. And who cares about EBD, just give me 4 brake pedals so that I could manually control the brake force to each wheel.

    Plus, who cares about quattro and its gizmos, just give me 2 gas pedals so I could control how much acceleration goes to the front and back wheels. Heck, who cares about Audi's torque vectoring Sports differential, give me 4 gas pedals so I could torque vector the car myself.

    And why accept the industry standard of 1 steering wheel when we all know the inside wheel turns at a tighter radius than the outer wheel. Give me 2 steering wheels so I could have greater control of each wheel's steering. Heck, give me 4 steering wheel so that I could have 4 wheel steering like the latest cars.

    Who needs synchros in the manual transmission. I want to be able to spool up that cog on my own, how fast I want to spool it up and with how much force. Give me a crank knob for each of the gear that's in the transmission.


    The track cars benefit more from DSG than the fat cats. As far as they care, it could be a slushbox that they control flappy paddles with.
    And get rid of the seat whilst your at it (excess weight)!!, I want to sit on the floor like in an old skool original Louts Seven!!

    Joking aside, some inventions are fantastic, and ABD/EDB/ASR/TCS/..... are a great safety net which I value for day to day driving. Likewise a DSG box is a great invention that adds a different dimension to driving. Won't necessarily add to my personal safety, but its very alluring proposition. I'm sure it's great on the track too.
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  33. #32
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    I had the DSG on my 2.0 TDI A3 and wasnt a fan of it - sucked the fun out of drivng it in my opnion. I doubt I'll own one again.

    I use to be going round a bend at high-ish revs and it would automatically shift up a gear sending me flying and i missed my clutch pedal.

    The DSG Auto side was good for motorway cruising but it did make driving it enthusiastically a bit dull. But the technology behind the DSG box itself was spot on, couldnt fault it in any way (apart from when it use to shift down on its own)

    I missed all my heel and toe action etc. so gone back to a good ol' manual :D

    For a diesel, i think it will be fine but for the S3s etc, for me, it would have to be a manual for me

    It's down to you and want you will be doing with the car. Test drive a few and see what you think.
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  34. #33
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    Thanks guys! Im supprised with the amount of feedback iv had from you guys! Thanks! I think i have peace of mind now to go for the DSG. Which i was wishing for!!

    If it turns out that it will cost me the earth i will get back to you all for towards the cost haha only messing!!

    Now the hunt goes on to find a car!!! to DSG!
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  35. #34
    paddy's Avatar
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    "Also, track cars do not benefit from DSG a sequential box would be a much better choice for a track car"........

    A DSG in manual mode is a auto change sequential...just like BTC..

    And No...you cant get a 170TDi in DSG/Quattro. The 170 quattro is almost S3 money and add a DSG and you would have a new range topper...Price wise.
    Last edited by paddy; 9th March 2010 at 19:10.
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  36. #35
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    Paddy, don't start a diesel vs. petrol comparison on top of DSG!
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  37. #36
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    Sorry but i've got to clear this up.

    Paddy, A DSG in manual mode is not a 'manual sequental gearbox' (the correct term) that is commonly referred to and known as the 'sequental' gearbox used in motorsports that I was also referring to in the post.

    The 'sequential auto' that you call it is a name you can apply to any typical auto tranny.

    The only similarity is 'sequential selection' or 'shift pattern' ie: you can only shift up or down 1 gear at a time and cannot choose a specific gear, which is the only common thing between them...the 'sequential' selection...you go/down 1 gear at a time...

    A DSG in 'manual mode' cannot hold a gear indefinately (as far as I know)

    A DSG box is typically twice the weight of a proper sequential box

    A sequential box uses dog clutch engagement rather than twin clutches in DSG.

    A sequential box can by its very design handle much much higher torque ratings.

    A DSG has less 'mechanical efficiency' (slightly less power to wheels)

    DSG can also take longer to change gear if it has 'antcipated' the wrong gear (because it auto-selects your next gear for you)

    ...DSG is not a motorsport 'box lol. In manual mode it doesn not turn into a motorsport 'box either.

  38. #37
    Mr "Warrencox" (sorry I don't know your First name). I could assume it's Warren but that might be a little presumptuous.

    When I said "Your wrong" I meant your were wrong for if you think I take 'umbrage' at any one who has a different opinion to mine. I was not trying to say your opinion was wrong. You are as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. I do get a Little upset by the fact that, as I said, some members seem to thing that 'real drivers' must drive a manual and the only way you can really enjoy driving is using a manual gearbox.

    I have no problem if some people want to drive a manual or a DSG. They are just different, but personally I think the DSG is the better of the two.

    I used the term 'I have' in my reply because I was giving my personal opinion based on what I have actually done and experienced and not something that I had read in a magazine or similar and that was what the OP was asking for in the first place.

    The comment someone else made about about getting better mpg from a manual if in fact not true. According to just about every test that is done a DSG equipped car gives a better MPG figure than the same car as a manual. It is interesting that more and more new lorries and artic tractor units are being sold with automatic gearboxes. By all accounts these give better fuel consumption than manual versions because the unit is always in the right gear at the right time and they don't have to keep changing the clutch. This information comes from a friend who is a truck fleet manager for a large supermarket company. Not quite the same as with a car because a car equipped with a 'normal' automatic gearbox is always worse for mpg than the same manual model, but with the DSG, because it's basically a manual gearbox with electronically controlled clutches, the opposite is the case.

    At least Audi offer both types of gearbox so we each have a choice to suit our opposite views. And if anyone on the forum ask for views on the DSG I will continue to give the benefit of the experience I have built up over the years of use both types of gearbox over many miles of all sorts of driving and the fact that I have enjoyed my last three DSG equipped cars more that the rest of my cars put together. Perhaps that means I'm not a 'real' driver just one who has being do it and enjoying it for 44 years.
    Dave R (h5djr)
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  39. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by FactionOne View Post
    Dave: Just out of interest, how long ago were the wheels on your car designed; and come to think of it, how long ago were you desgined? I guess both those things are obsolete now right?

    [IN JEST! ]

    Rob.
    Ah but Audi are trying to change that. Ever heard of the Flat bottom steering 'wheel'. Bit like a car wheel and tyre with a puncture. Do you remember the original Allegro!!
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  40. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickyquicky View Post
    Sorry but i've got to clear this up.

    A DSG in 'manual mode' cannot hold a gear indefinately (as far as I know)
    See post earlier about how to make a DSG box hold a gear indefinitely... if that's what the driver wants.

    Quote Originally Posted by rickyquicky View Post
    DSG can also take longer to change gear if it has 'antcipated' the wrong gear (because it auto-selects your next gear for you)
    Sure.

    But don't make it sound as if it flips a coin and gets it wrong half the time...

    If you've got your foot in the mat, and are climbing through the revs at a rate of knots, it's a VERY safe bet that you'll need the next gear up.

    If you're slowing, there's a good chance you'll need the next gear down.

    There's a computer which makes some very intelligent choices, and even if you suddenly change your mind and wrong-foot the computer (like suddenly changing your mind and matting the gas right after it's decided you'll likely need to downshift next) it's STILL faster than you can probably make a manual shift. You only notice the slight pause because it's so stunningly FAST the rest of the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by rickyquicky View Post
    ...DSG is not a motorsport 'box lol. In manual mode it doesn not turn into a motorsport 'box either.
    If the A3 didn't have such a corpulent turn-in/handling character, I might auto-cross it instead of the Porsche. In fact, under those circumstances I bet that the DSG would kick a manual tranny's ass for the 'knife-fight-in-a-phone-booth' tight courses.

    Keith

  41. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by h5djr View Post
    Ah but Audi are trying to change that. Ever heard of the Flat bottom steering 'wheel'. Bit like a car wheel and tyre with a puncture. Do you remember the original Allegro!!
    Aye, but to be fair, not long after the invention of the pneumatic tyre, there was the puncture; and they've been going flat at the bottom ever since

    //R
    The truth they're trying to keep from you is that IPv6 has nothing to do with address space; we're actually running out of full stops.

 

 
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