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  1. #41
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    h5djr, dont get me wrong re the comment about the driving experience. A real driver just has to enjoy driving. All I was trying to point out was that some people just prefer a higher level of involvement. That means more work and in most driving instances its not practical to always demand the highest levels of involvement of course. A DSG can be a great drivers car too.

    Do you think the better MPG returns are down more to the drivers though? As in, its easier in a way to get better MPG in a DSG because it does a lot more work for you and is easier to drive smoothly with?

    Because really a manual should technically be more efficient due to the lower weight, and less losses through the transmission and a driver who can drive carefully should be taking advantage of this fact. I cant see how DSG can be more efficient by any other means than being 'easier' to drive efficiently.

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  3. #42
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    Blueie, bet you didn't think you'd start such a debate over your question?! Anyway, it seems you've made the right choice for you so I'm glad it's helped. I've no idea how some people managed to go from manual vs DSG to the following:

    Who needs ABS right? Better to modulate the brakes ourselves. And who cares about EBD, just give me 4 brake pedals so that I could manually control the brake force to each wheel.

    Plus, who cares about quattro and its gizmos, just give me 2 gas pedals so I could control how much acceleration goes to the front and back wheels. Heck, who cares about Audi's torque vectoring Sports differential, give me 4 gas pedals so I could torque vector the car myself.

    And why accept the industry standard of 1 steering wheel when we all know the inside wheel turns at a tighter radius than the outer wheel. Give me 2 steering wheels so I could have greater control of each wheel's steering. Heck, give me 4 steering wheel so that I could have 4 wheel steering like the latest cars.

    Who needs synchros in the manual transmission. I want to be able to spool up that cog on my own, how fast I want to spool it up and with how much force. Give me a crank knob for each of the gear that's in the transmission.
    Brilliant!

    Just to add my own personal view, I still prefer a full manual gerbox. I test drove a Golf GTI with the DSG gearbox and whilst clearly a great, intelligent bit of kit, it made the car feel a little too clinical and un-involving for my liking. I can see the appeal if you're doing huge mileage or loads of town stuff when you'll be in heavy traffic, but for me nothing beats the involvement of a manual gearbox when you get those moments on an open country road and can go for a blast. This does not mean though that I don't want my Quattro system, ABS, power steering, airbags or any other such kit. I just prefer the involvement of a manual gearbox.

    Anyway, enjoy the new car when you get it.
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  4. #43
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    LOL @ this thread

  5. #44
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    Did someone mention a Cayman

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  6. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by NHN View Post
    Did someone mention a Cayman
    you're a bad man!! ;-)
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  7. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by warrencox View Post
    you're a bad man!! ;-)
    Dont you bloody start mate, future mother outlaw said the same thing when she was told her daughter was pregnant, cant even use come on ASN without being called names now

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  8. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by NHN View Post
    Dont you bloody start mate, future mother outlaw said the same thing when she was told her daughter was pregnant, cant even use come on ASN without being called names now
    You're the Daddy!!! Aw! you are safe on here, no bad names lol.


    Mauritus Blue 3.2 V6 S Line Quattro DSG Xenons Sunroof Leather Sat Nav/Changer/TV/Text W8 & Int Light Pack Dark H/Lining Tints PDC S3 Kit '11 Rears Sachs/Eibachs & more... Build Thread

  9. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarah's A3 View Post
    You're the Daddy!!!
    Bloody hope & better be or I will be the bad man I can assure you

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  10. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by NHN View Post
    Dont you bloody start mate, future mother outlaw said the same thing when she was told her daughter was pregnant, cant even use come on ASN without being called names now
    Mother in laws; I've got one too many for my liking. Roll on Sunday lunch when she can give me War and Peace about how life was better in her days. I bet she'd have a manual over a DSG!!
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  11. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by NHN View Post
    Bloody hope & better be or I will be the bad man I can assure you
    Lol, i'm laffin now. Happy times ahead...brilliant


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  12. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by warrencox View Post
    Mother in laws; I've got one too many for my liking. Roll on Sunday lunch when she can give me War and Peace about how life was better in her days. I bet she'd have a manual over a DSG!!

    How many have you got lol... Sure she keeps you in check, quite right..


    Mauritus Blue 3.2 V6 S Line Quattro DSG Xenons Sunroof Leather Sat Nav/Changer/TV/Text W8 & Int Light Pack Dark H/Lining Tints PDC S3 Kit '11 Rears Sachs/Eibachs & more... Build Thread

  13. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by MG View Post
    Blueie, bet you didn't think you'd start such a debate over your question?! Anyway, it seems you've made the right choice for you so I'm glad it's helped. I've no idea how some people managed to go from manual vs DSG to the following.
    You ppl are mad! I think i know everything about a DSG box now!! Thanks again for all the info. Didnt mean it to go into such depth lol

    I just wanted to know generally about a DSG wanted something different. Been driving a manual box since i was 9 so maybe time for a change now im 26. Still got a rally car for my manual box fun!
    I cant read, an i cant write. But thats ok! Cause im from the west country and i can drive a tractor!

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  14. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by VWAddict View Post
    See post earlier about how to make a DSG box hold a gear indefinitely... if that's what the driver wants.



    Sure.

    But don't make it sound as if it flips a coin and gets it wrong half the time...

    If you've got your foot in the mat, and are climbing through the revs at a rate of knots, it's a VERY safe bet that you'll need the next gear up.

    If you're slowing, there's a good chance you'll need the next gear down.

    There's a computer which makes some very intelligent choices, and even if you suddenly change your mind and wrong-foot the computer (like suddenly changing your mind and matting the gas right after it's decided you'll likely need to downshift next) it's STILL faster than you can probably make a manual shift. You only notice the slight pause because it's so stunningly FAST the rest of the time.



    If the A3 didn't have such a corpulent turn-in/handling character, I might auto-cross it instead of the Porsche. In fact, under those circumstances I bet that the DSG would kick a manual tranny's ass for the 'knife-fight-in-a-phone-booth' tight courses.

    Keith
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    You can hold a DSG in any gear with the paddle and............ it dosnt then anticipate the wrong gear because its in manual and not predicting anything. as for Sequential.....it means in sequence which is what DSG does.
    I had single clutch sequential race boxes on my bikes and what did we do...fit a quick shifter to speed the things up..lol. Anyway the discussion here is manual v DSG ! If you want to go racing with a manual box then good luck.
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  15. #54
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    While it's getting around to the subject of properly quick shifting gearboxes, it's probably worth mentioning that one of our number runs this:



    Jerico 5 speed sequential air-shift. Fair to say that's probably the quickest box any of us are likely to have (well, until he gets his next one no doubt!).

    //R
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  16. #55
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    Its all off-topic anyway and we can argue pointlessly for hours. All im trying to say is that a DSG box in manual is very different to for example a Sadev sequential apart from the fact you go up and down in gears one at a time. But anyway it doesnt matter...

    I would have thought that DSG even in 'manual' mode still anticipates the next gear? I thought the whole point of the DSG box is that it always has the next gear engaged ready for power irrelevant of manual/auto mode unless anyone knows otherwise?

    FactionOne, that gearbox looks the dogs. Whats it in?

  17. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickyquicky View Post
    FactionOne, that gearbox looks the dogs. Whats it in?
    Project Satans-Child, there's a little bit of work before she's finished but well on the way - B5 S4, ~1000bhp, some ridiculous rear wheels (RWD), a wheelie-bar and parachute...

    http://www.satanschildracing.com/project/index.html

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  18. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by paddy View Post
    You can hold a DSG in any gear with the paddle and............ it dosnt then anticipate the wrong gear because its in manual and not predicting anything.
    Actually that's not accurate.

    The SECOND (unused) shaft IS indeed 'predicting' insofar as it's trying to guess which gear you'll need next. -Even in manual... in fact, especially in manual, because it's not in charge of when the next gear is picked and which one it's to be.

    As a result, it watches what you do, and if you're )f'rexample) creeping up slowly but nearing an expected 3rd-4th shift, it pre-selects 4th. -Yes, even in manual.

    However, if you suddenly tell it to drop a cog and shoot past the dawdling Rover driver in front of you when a passing opportunity presents itself, it will have to drop 4th and grab second with the unused (even-numbered) shaft.

    Keith

  19. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by warrencox View Post
    Mother in laws; I've got one too many for my liking. Roll on Sunday lunch when she can give me War and Peace about how life was better in her days. I bet she'd have a manual over a DSG!!
    Only thing automatic about them mate are there mouths, rest are manual including there brains, need winding up to get them started to see any form of sense & usually its not common.

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  20. #59
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    Time for the TCT transmission to be developed, it will have the next upper and lower gear engaged so that there will never be any misprediction. Assembling the unit would be like putting together a russian doll.

    Anyway, with DSG, you will have your hand on the flappy paddle the whole time, so if you find yourself in a situation where you might be putting too much power into a turn and lightening up the throttle might snap the car into throttle lift oversteer, you can just shift into a higher gear and you will instantly find yourself in a safer situation.

    As far as reason to hold gears, I would assume people who want to power oversteer the whole way around a turn and if it upshifts in the middle, they might lose their wheelspin. But then, those are not for serious drivers wanting the fastest lap, but for people who wants to goof around.

  21. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by rickyquicky View Post
    h5djr, dont get me wrong re the comment about the driving experience. A real driver just has to enjoy driving. All I was trying to point out was that some people just prefer a higher level of involvement. That means more work and in most driving instances its not practical to always demand the highest levels of involvement of course. A DSG can be a great drivers car too.

    Do you think the better MPG returns are down more to the drivers though? As in, its easier in a way to get better MPG in a DSG because it does a lot more work for you and is easier to drive smoothly with?

    Because really a manual should technically be more efficient due to the lower weight, and less losses through the transmission and a driver who can drive carefully should be taking advantage of this fact. I cant see how DSG can be more efficient by any other means than being 'easier' to drive efficiently.
    With regard to mpg between a manual and a DSG most of the testing I have read giving the better mpg has been done by the same organisation and using the same drivers. A DSG is not like an ordinary automatic gearbox. It basically consists of a normal manual gearbox with all the same internals but with two electronically controlled wet clutches bolted on. If you add up the weight of a normal manual gearbox plus the clutch of the clutch operating system (pedal, hydraulic cylinders etc) and a DSG plus it's electronics I doubt if there is very much overall difference. Also I don't see any reason for the DSG to use any more power than a normal manual gearbox and clutch arrangement. After all when the clutch is engaged in a DSG it is the same as when a manual clutch is engaged. Nothing there to sap the power like the torque converter in a normal automatic box. That's why a DSG is so much better than a normal automatic gearbox.

    As far as driver involvement is concerned, I would agree that a DSG would be less involving for the driver if it was put in D or S and left there. Personally I always drive with it in tiptronic mode changing gear when I decide using the lever or paddles in just the same way as I would in a manual. The only time my gearbox changes without me giving it an instruction is when I stop and it automatically engages first gear. Even slowing down for say a roundabout I use the paddles to change down to give me engine braking and to make sure I'm in the correct gear when I arrive at the roundabout, again in the same way as I would if I was driving a manual but without having to press the clutch pedal. This in particular is what keeps up the driving experience and enjoyment. I think of my DSG not as an automatic but as a manual gearbox that can perform all the necessary gear changes as and when I tell it to but without the need to push a clutch pedal down. The only time I ever use D is when I'm crawling in a traffic. To me it's gives me the best of both worlds.
    Dave R (h5djr)
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    A3 8V 2.0 TDI-184 Sportback Sport s-tronic quattro - Silver + lots of options - my 9th A3

  22. #61
    NHN
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    Quote Originally Posted by LWNY View Post
    Assembling the unit would be like putting together a russian doll.
    & you have personal experience of this do you

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  23. #62
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    Back to the general subject of a Audi DSG (pref a TDI) how do they a handle a remap?
    I cant read, an i cant write. But thats ok! Cause im from the west country and i can drive a tractor!

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  24. #63
    NHN
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    Very well IMHO, the dsg boxes can take fair bit, depends on what you're plans are, but they're faily robust mate.

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  25. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Blueie View Post
    Back to the general subject of a Audi DSG (pref a TDI) how do they a handle a remap?
    I have a 2.0TDI 140 common-rail version and it has been remapped to around 175PS and it's fine. Better performance and slightly better fuel consumption that before the remap and quite a bit cheaper than buying a 170 in the first place.

    Looking forward to driving it on the Autobahn when I take it to Germany for a week at Easter and again through Germany to Austria in June.
    Last edited by h5djr; 10th March 2010 at 11:12.
    Dave R (h5djr)
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  26. #65
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    Hmmm ...

    Interesting :P

    Well, I had a DSG on a 140 CR TDI, and ... Ended up with no gears at all 3 times within a year whilst moving at speed, crossing at junctions (1st to 2nd ... nope nothing!). Slowing to roundabout to check nothing coming, then try and accelerate ... err 3rd to 2nd to 3rd to 2nd to 1st meanwhile lorry looking at me saying "nutter" :/

    Reversing up hill and the car would lurch like a learner (I live on a hill ... not literally).

    I think in a petrol it would be MUCH better, the turbo lag on diesel seemed to make the DSG guess wrong too many times for me (personal opinion).

    So, now in a A3 170 CR Sportback S/Line Quattro Manual, and very rarely miss the DSG.

  27. #66
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    Sounds to me like you just had a crappy car, not neccessarily the box as its the same in the 170 & the 140 CR's have a fair bit of poke aswell, so cant see this being the issue, but would have been interesting to see if a remap fixed these issues of yours or not, then this would prove my point it not being the 140 CR overall just specifically your car

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  28. #67
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    Yep, I called it the "Friday build car" .. another "interesting" thing was it would manage to kick our enough smoke, having just slowed down to a stop and then pulling off, to poison a small village - ended up being a "badly fitting ring" on the Turbo (something like that ... but took 3 months for Audi to a. believe me, b. reproduce it - evacuating the garage workshop as a result!!, and c. sort it).

    So, a year worth of angst ... on top of my mid-life crisis

  29. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by JonnyTDI View Post
    Hmmm ...

    Interesting :P

    Well, I had a DSG on a 140 CR TDI, and ... Ended up with no gears at all 3 times within a year whilst moving at speed, crossing at junctions (1st to 2nd ... nope nothing!). Slowing to roundabout to check nothing coming, then try and accelerate ... err 3rd to 2nd to 3rd to 2nd to 1st meanwhile lorry looking at me saying "nutter" :/

    Reversing up hill and the car would lurch like a learner (I live on a hill ... not literally).

    I think in a petrol it would be MUCH better, the turbo lag on diesel seemed to make the DSG guess wrong too many times for me (personal opinion).

    So, now in a A3 170 CR Sportback S/Line Quattro Manual, and very rarely miss the DSG.
    Certainly none of the three DSGs I've had have ever missed a beat. All three have behaved just as I would expect and were smooth in use at all times both forward and backward. Again I don't leave my DSG to guess any of the gears required using the paddles almost exclusively. Even changing down two gears at a time, say from 6th to 4th, always works fine with just two clicks of the paddle. Your's must have been a bad example.
    Dave R (h5djr)
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