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  1. #1
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    Ferrari startup on A3

    After checking out the engine notes on various cars at the "startup area" at MPH motor show earls court, I particullary liked the ferrari startup, where the engine revs quite high on initial start up to give it a deep v8 sound. So i thought this should simply be map settings. Speaking to the guys at FR&RTuning (my local tuning comapny) said this is possible and will have a look into this next week when I get my milltek fitted. Will keep you all updated on this. I know it wont sound like a ferrari but best make use of that milltek sound
    Last edited by h5djr; 27th November 2009 at 17:36.


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  3. #2
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    Forgive me being a grumpy curmudgeon...

    But I think that this is a terrible idea.

    Firstly, revving -no matter HOW high- doesn't make an I-4 engine sound like a V8, no matter WHAT exhaust you have on.

    Secondly, the very moment when your oil circulation is at its worst is when you want oil pressure to build, temperature to rise, oil to thin and circulation/penetration/lubrication to build before you EVER rev the motor.

    Bearing wear, ring wear, knock, piston slap and 'thousand other natural shocks' (to paraphrase Shakespeare) are among the things which you'll be risking in order to get that 'yiinnnnng' of revs after startup.

    -And you'll still not sound like a Ferrari.

    Keith

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    popped my bubble


    A3 2.0 TDI Optics Black S-Line, FR&RTuning Stage 3! GT20 Hybrid Turbo, THS TFSI FMIC, Sachs performance clutch kit+SMF, Milltek 2.5" Turbo-Back Non-Res Exhaust, ITG Maxogen Induction, EGR Delete with FR&RTuning Map out, Custom Black 18" RS4, 35mm H&R springs, S3 brakes, EBC Yellowstuff, front splitter, HID Xenons, S3 tailgate Spoiler, 09 Rear Lights, Retrofit Audi Ipod, S3 Air vents, Bose sound+retrofit JBL Subwoofer 1200W.
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  5. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by VWAddict View Post

    -And you'll still not sound like a Ferrari.

    Keith
    But it will sound like a bag of nails after a few hundred cold starts and a handful of revs.

    Nicely put Keith...no way would I do this to mine....as you've said,you want a nice easy startup,and let the thing warm before applying the revs.

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    This has been debated quite a few times in the past actually. I don't necessarily know which is right or wrong so I just want to put forward what I have read before.

    It's been said that rally cars are revved from the moment they are started up to spread oil around the engine and get it nice and lubed straight away. The experts say that as the engine is under no load it causes no damage whatsoever.

    I know that rally cars are different of course but an engine is an engine and others on here have confirmed the same with any car also.

    What I would like to point out is that in every manual for every car I have owned (only 5 admittedly!) it has said you should not allow the engine to idle before driving it. Well that kinda says to me that it can't do a lot of damage if they want you to put a load on it when it's cold. Yeah they don't want you to rag the hell out of it until it's warmed but low revs with load has got to be in some way similar in wear and tear as lots of (not max) revs with no load.

    Just as another little note, the fact that Ferraris do it on every start means it can't be harmful to their engines either!
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    The 'fast cars rev high and it never does them any harm' is a specious argument. Race cars, rally cars etc. never look for engine longevity; The engines are rebuilt or replaced every couple of thousand miles. I've never seen an F1 engine fail because it's been driven long enough to suffer from worn crank journals or bearings. On the other hand, I can show you a thousand boy racers who 'buzz' their engines on startup and blow blue smoke at 20,000 miles.

    'not letting it idle' is a different argument entirely. When it pertains to not 'warming the car up at idle' then I actually agree entirely. What you get is a fully-warmed engine and a stone-cold transmission. -It USED to be more applicable to cars like the original mini, which had an in-sump transmission which shared the engine oil for its gearbox... but for end-on transmissions (like all cars nowadays) it's not a good idea at all.

    Also, with rally and race cars, they WARM the engine up with electrical heaters before they start up, thus the oil is thinned out significantly. in road cars which are being re-started after running into the shop for ten minutes, the oil will still be nice and thin. My Porsche has an anti-drainback
    valve which helps keep the top end filled with oil, -I don't know if the VW or the Audi do, though I think there may be anti-drainback spring-and-ball-type valves in the oil filter...

    Either way, oil DOES leak slowly back, and there is usually LESS than the optimal amount when the engine is started after a long rest.

    When the engine is COLD, the oil's viscosity is thickest. This means that you should perhaps imagine two conditions; one tryong to pump warm water through a small hole or a thin straw (representing warm oil being pumped through the oiling paths and galleries in the engine) and secondly something like Lyle's Golden Syrup being pumped through the SAME thin holes and galleries. This is like COLD oil, which has a much higher viscosity than warm oil.

    Imagining golden syrup or treacle, you can see that it will be "tight" to squeze through, and so the pressure rises, even though very little 'flow' is taking place. With only a little oil in the crank bearing clearances, and no new flow yet, the thin film of cold oil on the bearing surfaces tends to 'tear' or sheer if the surface speed diference is too great, unless new oil gets there FAST.

    This means that it is best to not 'buzz' the engine on a cold startup until the oil has gotten around everywhere.

    If you have an oil pressure gauge, you'll know that the idle pressure drops when the car is warm. However, this doesn't mean there's less oil being pumped... it's just that there's more oil FLOW relieving the pressure. At COLD idle, there's so little flow that you'd be an absolute FOOL to 'buzz' the motor unless the cost of frequent engine work is trivial to you...

    ...Like if you're a Ferrari owner, a race team owner, rally driver, etc.

    Keith

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    Quote Originally Posted by Staz View Post
    This has been debated quite a few times in the past actually. I don't necessarily know which is right or wrong so I just want to put forward what I have read before.

    It's been said that rally cars are revved from the moment they are started up to spread oil around the engine and get it nice and lubed straight away. The experts say that as the engine is under no load it causes no damage whatsoever.

    I know that rally cars are different of course but an engine is an engine and others on here have confirmed the same with any car also.

    What I would like to point out is that in every manual for every car I have owned (only 5 admittedly!) it has said you should not allow the engine to idle before driving it. Well that kinda says to me that it can't do a lot of damage if they want you to put a load on it when it's cold. Yeah they don't want you to rag the hell out of it until it's warmed but low revs with load has got to be in some way similar in wear and tear as lots of (not max) revs with no load.

    Just as another little note, the fact that Ferraris do it on every start means it can't be harmful to their engines either!
    Hi Staz.....I think this may turn out to be one of those questions where you get as many answers as there are engineers to ask!

    My last two cars were both highly tuned turbos,one had actually been a GpN tarmac rally car before I bought it,and my engineers advice was the opposite....start it,warm it,and only then hoof it.

    Part of the reason for running a rally engine at high-ish revs after starting is that most simply won't run from cold without a few revs on board,and also they have light flywheels.

    Mine wouldn't run at idle at all until it hit 90C....it would simply stall as soon as you lifted the accelerator pedal.

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    In my 20+ years of driving, and owning about 50 different cars over that time Ive done the "let it warm up", "let it warm down" on most.

    However, I had an Uno Turbo which I got extremely cheap as a run around (E plate about 2 years old so must have been 1989) and used to thrash it from cold, redlining it all the time and used to switch it off after a damm good thrashing - she never went wrong, never missed a beat..
    The Crappy Hire car Ive got at the moment (waiting for my Black Edition A3 in Misano) Ive tried to do the same, never let it warm up and trying to kill it but she too keeps on running..

    Ferrari V8s rev high for the very reason to get the oil around the engine fast and to keep oil pressure up early on. Whether this is needed in a non highly tuned engine I would have to think not.

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    VWAddict - Useful post!
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    if the problems is simply about oil, then as far as I understand oils are designed to work optimally ina range of conditions, just like engine coolant for example. you can get all year round engine coolant which works perfectly from -20oC to +40oC. so surely oils are designed to to work in the same way to be the same density/viscosity from maybe the same range of temperatures.

    Il try to get a spec if the 5W-30 engine oils from different companies. (geek)

    So if it does mean the oil is thicker in the cold in england (-10oc at the very lowest id imagine), il put it off to the summer where the oil is warmer :D


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    "As a rule, overhead cam (OHC) engines typically require thinner oils such as 5W-30 or 5W-20 to speed lubrication of the overhead cam(s) and [COLOR=blue !important][COLOR=blue !important]valve-train[/COLOR][/COLOR] when the engine is first started. Pushrod engines, by comparison, typically specify 5W-30, 10W-30 or 10W-40.
    As mileage adds up and internal engine wear increases bearing clearances, it may be wise to switch to a slightly higher viscosity rating to prolong engine life, reduce noise and oil consumption. For example, if an engine originally factory-filled with 5W-30 now has 90,000 miles on it, switching to a 10W-30 oil may provide better lubrication and protection. The thicker oil will maintain the strength of the oil film in the bearings better so the engine will have more oil pressure. This will also reduce engine noise and reduced bearing fatigue (which can lead to bearing failure in high mileage engines).
    For sustained high temperature, high load operation, an even heavier oil may be used in some situations. Some racing engines use 20W-50, but this would only be recommended for an engine with increased bearing clearances. Increasing the viscosity of the oil also increases drag and friction, which can sap horsepower from the crankshaft. That's why 20W-50 racing oil would not be the best choice for everyday driving or cold weather operation for most vehicles. The latest trend in racing is to run tighter bearing clearances and use thinner oils such as 0W-20, 0W-30, 5W-20 or 5W-30 to reduce friction and drag."

    from http://www.aa1car.com/library/oil_viscosity.htm

    does this mean if you change to 10w30 as my car has around 80K on clok, this will "maintain the strength of the oil film in the bearings better so the engine will have more oil pressure"


    A3 2.0 TDI Optics Black S-Line, FR&RTuning Stage 3! GT20 Hybrid Turbo, THS TFSI FMIC, Sachs performance clutch kit+SMF, Milltek 2.5" Turbo-Back Non-Res Exhaust, ITG Maxogen Induction, EGR Delete with FR&RTuning Map out, Custom Black 18" RS4, 35mm H&R springs, S3 brakes, EBC Yellowstuff, front splitter, HID Xenons, S3 tailgate Spoiler, 09 Rear Lights, Retrofit Audi Ipod, S3 Air vents, Bose sound+retrofit JBL Subwoofer 1200W.
    Milltek Cat-back Non-Res for S3 2.0T FOR SALE both 3dr and 5dr PM

  13. #12
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    Correct me if I am wrong, but some of the high performance engines have an aux oil pump which starts the oil moving as soon as the ignition is on. Bit like a dry sump system.

    Anyway, a 1.9 diesel is NEVER going to sound like a ferrari..

    Also think of your turbo!
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    True... dry sump is another case entirely.

    However, I still suspect that with thick oil, during a cold start, 'buzzing' the engine right away = bad idea.

    Keith

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    I would have thought hearing less of the diesel engine would be best......

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    Quote Originally Posted by navnayyar View Post
    After checking out the engine notes on various cars at the "startup area" at MPH motor show earls court, I particullary liked the ferrari startup, where the engine revs quite high on initial start up to give it a deep v8 sound. So i thought this should simply be map settings. Speaking to the guys at FR&RTuning (my local tuning comapny) said this is possible and will have a look into this next week when I get my milltek fitted. Will keep you all updated on this. I know it wont sound like a ferrari but best make use of that milltek sound
    simply one of the most stupid ideas ever!

    yes it can be done via the ecu map, all they need to do is to play with the cold start idle map. As to why you would to do it on a normal car nevermind a diesel is beyond me.

    The reason or one of the main reasons to why cars have a high idle speed when cold is to decrease the time needed for the cat's to heat up mainly for emissions, the reason why you hear it more on the Ferrari or any other supercar is because generally the exhaust note is louder and also more obvious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A4Quattro View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong, but some of the high performance engines have an aux oil pump which starts the oil moving as soon as the ignition is on. Bit like a dry sump system.

    Anyway, a 1.9 diesel is NEVER going to sound like a ferrari..

    Also think of your turbo!
    the aux oil pump is usually used to circulate oil through the engine when the engine is turned off, most common on turbocharged engines as the turbo builds up alot of heat so when the engine is turned off oil is flowed through the turbo to help reduce the heat.

  19. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobinA3 View Post
    the aux oil pump is usually used to circulate oil through the engine when the engine is turned off, most common on turbocharged engines as the turbo builds up alot of heat so when the engine is turned off oil is flowed through the turbo to help reduce the heat.
    Indeed, this build up of heat is known as heat soak, and can significantly damage the bearings. Although modern turbos can also be cooled also by water from the conventional cooling system.
    The purpose of the aux pump as described here was that it starts on iginition on to force lubrication around the engine before cranking, thereby lessening initial wear.
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