S3 tuning - article in latest EVO magasine

john_cook · Mar 12, 2009

Hi guys,

was reading a little article in EVO this month about tuned hot hatches. They had an 8P S3 at 400 bhp, a Mk5 GTI at 407 bhp, a astra VXR at 420 bhp and a Focus STI at about 330 bhp.

They were testing in the wet / icy months but the S3 did well, it managed 0-60 in 4.3 secs and 0-100 in 10.8 secs, which in these conditions is pretty good I think.

The tuning mods included a different turbo I think and milltek, better brakes and a few others at a cost of £5000. It also said it has nitrous.

My question is really, how much does it cost to get the S3 up to 350 bhp and even 400 bhp, what mods are required and what are the costs. Has anyone done this in this forum. I know a remap will take it to about 310 bhp, but how much to go further...

thanks..

gixxer600k4 · Mar 12, 2009

i think if you get a turbo upgrade you can get serious gains, you will need a new intercooler too, to withstand the higher performance. a good exhausts filter and remap should see you up near the 400bhp

you may also need a new fuel pump

warren_S5 · Mar 12, 2009

You should be able to make a solid 350bhp for just over £2.5k

Stage 2 map (STg1: £499 + STg 2: £100) - est.
Milltek full system (£1100)
DV (£150)
Intake / Filter (£200)
High pressure fuel pump internals (£400)
Downpipe - ????

WiZBiT · Mar 12, 2009

350 is acheivable with a stage 2 map + tbe.

gixxer600k4 · Mar 12, 2009

http://www.backdraftmotorsport.com/performance-upgrades/2.0-tfsi-320-360-bhp-upgrades.html

Jamiekip · Mar 12, 2009

Stage 2+ on the S3 ranges from 360-370 bhp

Basically you'd need to be buying:
Full TBE exhaust
Cold Air Intake (Evoms, VF, Forge etc)
High Pressure Fuel Pump
Forge DV
PCV mod
And of course a map to support.

EDIT - Upgraded Clutch (well postted Paul :salute:

)

I reckon you should be able to get the lot (if done at the same time) for a sniff over £2000 - not bad for a 100bhp gain
EDIT - add the clutch and you're looking at £2800-£3000 I'm guessing

Revo have a good mapt o support this (i've been in a couple of cars set up this way now and it is very good)
GIAC also have a map supporting this level of modding and are quoting around 380bhp though I've not heard if this RR verified.

My car is Stage 1 and is transformed from the original car
Iggu on here is currently Stage 2 and his is a big step up from mine
People who have gone from Stage 2 to Satge 2+ say the change is the same again as the fuel pump gives so much more mid range shove. I think it will give you all the power you need in the S3!

HTH

PaulAr · Mar 12, 2009

Dont forget to cost in a new DMF/Clutch also.

The OEM biots dont seem to like 350bhp.

cheers
Paul

Iggu · Mar 12, 2009

Jamiekip said:
Iggu on here is currently Stage 2 and his is a big step up from mine

I'm just Stage 1 at the moment mate. Not from next week though ....

To the OP my car is making 342bhp with the following:

Milltek TBE (£1,100)
Forge Intake (£200)
Revo Stage 1 (£499)

The exhaust and intake are enough to take a Stage 1 car from a basic remap (310-315) to 340 if the set up is right.

mrgicm · Mar 12, 2009

Iggu said:
I'm just Stage 1 at the moment mate. Not from next week though ....

To the OP my car is making 342bhp with the following:

Milltek TBE (£1,100)
Forge Intake (£200)
Revo Stage 1 (£499)

The exhaust and intake are enough to take a Stage 1 car from a basic remap (310-315) to 340 if the set up is right.

I really dont know about those figures, because here in Croatia all of the S3 that we have including various remaps from different companies dont exceed 320 hp without the fuel pump, and with the fuel pump the best is 340bhp. But performance wise my car now has 340bhp with the APR stage2+ and APR fuel pump, Forge CAI, Forge DV, Milltek TBE, and does a 0-100kmh in 4.7 and I ran a 1/4 mile 12.8. I think those results are realistic.
Noone here really tryed Revo cause here we dont have a dealer, but somhow I think it cannot be that big of a difference.

Iggu · Mar 12, 2009

mrgicm said:
I really dont know about those figures, because here in Croatia all of the S3 that we have including various remaps from different companies dont exceed 320 hp without the fuel pump, and with the fuel pump the best is 340bhp.

Meaning what exactly? Here's my graph (its been on 2 different sets of rollers since and recorded pretty much the same). Maybe the fuel in Croatia is crap or maybe you need better tuners out there ? Either way I'm not into ****-waving my bhp readouts for vanity's sake - I'm just stating facts for the benefit of the OP.

People with fuel pumps here are ALL getting 360 or over.

Jamiekip · Mar 12, 2009

mrgicm said:
I really dont know about those figures, because here in Croatia all of the S3 that we have including various remaps from different companies dont exceed 320 hp without the fuel pump, and with the fuel pump the best is 340bhp. But performance wise my car now has 340bhp with the APR stage2+ and APR fuel pump, Forge CAI, Forge DV, Milltek TBE, and does a 0-100kmh in 4.7 and I ran a 1/4 mile 12.8. I think those results are realistic.
Noone here really tryed Revo cause here we dont have a dealer, but somhow I think it cannot be that big of a difference.

My guess is that the differene will be in fuel?
What octane rating is the stuff out there?

warren_S5 · Mar 12, 2009

mrgicm said:
I really dont know about those figures, because here in Croatia all of the S3 that we have including various remaps from different companies dont exceed 320 hp without the fuel pump, and with the fuel pump the best is 340bhp. But performance wise my car now has 340bhp with the APR stage2+ and APR fuel pump, Forge CAI, Forge DV, Milltek TBE, and does a 0-100kmh in 4.7 and I ran a 1/4 mile 12.8. I think those results are realistic.
Noone here really tryed Revo cause here we dont have a dealer, but somhow I think it cannot be that big of a difference.

I think it is what some people call the 'dyno lottery'.

Two different rolling roads with 2 different operators can produce figures with +/- 10% at extremes with the same car.

To me the figures produced on the road / track mean so much more than the numbers off the rollers. RR figures are usually an indicator, but more a mechanism for 'pub bragging rights'.

Iggu · Mar 12, 2009

warrencox said:
I think it is what some people call the 'dyno lottery'.
Two different rolling roads with 2 different operators can produce figures with +/- 10% at extremes with the same car.
To me the figures produced on the road / track mean so much more than the numbers off the rollers. RR figures are usually an indicator, but more a mechanism for 'pub bragging rights'.

Agree 100%.
Damned good for spicing up the working day with a forum argument though.

warren_S5 · Mar 12, 2009

Iggu said:
Agree 100%.
Damned good for spicing up the working day with a forum argument though.

My favourites are when people quote their BHP figures to 1 decimal place!!!

If car engines were 'blueprinted' you'd expect consistency between vehicles, and so often people are surprised of offended when their car 'underposts', however every car is unique, has its own tendencies, is serviced, driven, fuelled and adapts in its own way to the driver. It's a subject ripe for some good angsty debate!!!

More people fall out over 'the numbers' on forums in the average day than get divorced!!! :laugh:

WiZBiT · Mar 12, 2009

I got 312.416483247 bhp. I dont know where the other 0.12324176532 went? Must be an issue with the rollers

Iggu · Mar 12, 2009

warrencox said:
My favourites are when people quote their BHP figures to 1 decimal place!!!

Ha ha - yeah I've seen that too.

What got my goat a few posts ago was the implication that I'd made the figures up or that they weren't "genuine".
They were "genuine" in that dyno graphs show those numbers when the car goes on the rollers.
Does that mean that "is" the power of my car ? Does it ******.
Could be anything between 130 bhp and 350 bhp depending on which way the wind is blowing.
As you say - this is more contentious than the McCartney/Mills divorce proceedings. And all the more fun for it !

mrgicm · Mar 12, 2009

Iggu said:
Meaning what exactly? Here's my graph (its been on 2 different sets of rollers since and recorded pretty much the same). Maybe the fuel in Croatia is crap or maybe you need better tuners out there ? Either way I'm not into ****-waving my bhp readouts for vanity's sake - I'm just stating facts for the benefit of the OP.

People with fuel pumps here are ALL getting 360 or over.

The fuel I use is 100oct, or at least they say it is, but never the less the fuel here is sh**t, but I dont know how im producing such low figures because I have allmost all of the mods that you guys are having on your cars,just wish we could have more skilled tuners here, for my tuning i went all the way to Vienna to APR and got their remap and all, and I certanly thing they are very close to revo and giac, but thats only my opinion.

Nevertheless thoose are some great rr figures mate, only wish I could have the same!!!

warren_S5 · Mar 12, 2009

Rolling roads can often be out due to:

1) Age - the older the rollers the more generous they can be
2) Calibration - if they aren't serviced regularly they can over/under read
3) Operator influence - there are some underpinning conversions used to calculate the wheel horsepower / flywheel horsepower etc...
4) Type of roller / manufacturer (is it a hub RR, or a wheel one etc...)
5) How effective the cooling air is going in to the front of the car
6) Operator experience

My first Leon Cupra R was tuned from 225bhp to 280(!)bhp by the original tuner, who shall remain nameless. Turned up at another tuner and it got 258bhp (strangely a competitor of theirs). What can I say??

This: don't panic about numbers!!!

Jamiekip · Mar 12, 2009

I agree - RR lottery, but always good to go to a RR day and see some comparative readings actross several cars.

My car has delivered:
314bhp and 313lb/ft on Regals Rollers
and
313bhp and 314lb/ft on prosports Rollers

Pretty consistent and both seemed to be pretty honest in their RR set ups.

Funnily enough, there is a RR day at Regal on Saturday 21st March - already 10 of us going. Room for more If there is enough interest over here???

mrgicm · Mar 12, 2009

I agree, cause I found the same rr results on some forum that were made on the same rr that we have here (MAHA) and the guy said that it was some kind of a different measurment sistem and if he had measured my car in the same way it would of showed the same higher hp, but he said that thats just not the way to do it, beside thoose fans were lookin pretty small, so I dont know about that...
Have any of you had some experience or had some feedbacks on the APR remap for the S3?

warren_S5 · Mar 12, 2009

mrgicm said:
Have any of you had some experience or had some feedbacks on the APR remap for the S3?

A mate who i a forum moderator on SEATCUPRA.net has his Leon Cupra Mk2 APR mapped (with APR fuel pump, full exhaust etc....), and he got the highest bhp figs of everyone at the last rolling road session on their site.

Timbo_S3 · Mar 12, 2009

I think RR dynos are a complete WOFTAM if you are trying to compare cars, especially different cars on different dynos. Even "shoot-out" competitions using the same dyno cause more arguments than they solve, because simple things like tyre pressure, tie-down pressure and heat soak can have measurable influences on output.

However, I am a strong supporter of using them, ie, the same dyno, to measure the deltas achieved with tuning. And the dyno used should not be that of the tuner :whistle2:

Again, there are risks of variations, but if you are aware of the factors you can try to minimise them, or take them into account.

Personally, I favour dynos that don't allow much in the way of operator intervention; that is, it is fundamentally a measurement device, which performs known calculations corrected for weather conditions automatically using an attached weather station that is calibrated according to ISO standards.

One thing I have noticed is that it seems UK RRs seem to provide a readout in terms of power at the flywheel. I'm a bit sceptical about this because I don't undertand the transmission loss (or "drag") correction calculation. It's not particularly transparent -- does it vary for each car, fwd vs rwd vs awd vs 4wd?

In Australia, we tend to relate to power at the wheels, as measured. Of course, people want to get back to a flywheel number, to see how they compare relative to the original spec. The problem with that is that the mfr's spec is usually generated on an engine dyno, and while there is an ISO/SAE standard covering this, it is different to that covering RRs

If you want to get a good measure of your car's power without dismantling it, there are some hub dynos around (remove wheels -- dyno attached to the wheel hub) that at least remove some of the friction issues.

Where would we be in internet car forums without the ubiquitous dyno debate?!! :blahblah1:

Iggu · Mar 12, 2009

Timbo_S3 said:
Where would we be in internet car forums without the ubiquitous dyno debate?!!

We'd be in work bored to death.
Meaningless dyno arguments are the bread and butter of any forum whose function is to relieve the tedium of the daily grind.
Anyone who takes them seriously is missing the point completely.

Timbo_S3 · Mar 13, 2009

Iggu said:
We'd be in work bored to death.....Anyone who takes them seriously is missing the point completely.

Exactly!

I wonder what dyno designers and builders argue about? :ermm:

crazylegscrane · Mar 13, 2009

Jamiekip said:
I agree - RR lottery, but always good to go to a RR day and see some comparative readings actross several cars.

My car has delivered:
314bhp and 313lb/ft on Regals Rollers
and
313bhp and 314lb/ft on prosports Rollers

Pretty consistent and both seemed to be pretty honest in their RR set ups.

Funnily enough, there is a RR day at Regal on Saturday 21st March - already 10 of us going. Room for more If there is enough interest over here???

Gawd Damm, had my S3 since last September and I want to get it on a RR day and get a GIAC remap on it now but I'm snowboarding in France and driving over there this Saturday.
:keule:

Are they doing any deals on the remaps??

I'm convinced that the S3 I had from the dealership for a two hour test drive was remapped, as it pulled much harder throughout the rev range. My missus took a fiesta for a test drive once and while chatting to the salesman, he told me his company car was an Focus ST which he had remapped. I thought that was very cheeky and couldn't believe he told me he'd done it, someone will have ended up with that as an ex-demo, no doubt with the remap off.

Let me know if any other RR days come up

liam · Mar 13, 2009

Iggu said:
Agree 100%.
Damned good for spicing up the working day with a forum argument though.

S3 tuning - article in latest EVO magasine

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