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Thread: Golf GTI mk5 vs A3 2.0T FSI vs A3 2.0 TDI 170

  1. #41
    Ess_Three's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10blazin View Post
    but golf ain't a patch style wise with them big daft back lights
    I guess it's all down to presonal taste.
    I find the A3 bland...not a bad looking car, just a shade to 'safe' and boring.
    Same with the cooking Golfs.
    But the GTI, for me, has the external style that the A3 lacks.

    although i saw the new golf today very nice back lights are a miracle compared to a 5
    I'd agree...a decent tidy up of the Mk5 really.


    but the reason why a3 are more expensive period is the styling and looks that's why Audi is running the show its not rocket science to see why you pay more money for an a3
    Going to have to dissagree again here...
    I don't think Audi are running the show...not completely.

    Are they building the better interiors? Yes. If that's your prime consideration...then the A3 is better.
    But dynamically, the GTI is just better. More fun, more alive, better set up.
    That, to me, means the VW chassis Dept is running the show.

    You pay more for the Audi as it is the premium product.
    But when premium (fake alloy shiny bits and LED lit tat) means you don't get the chassis and fun...you can keep it.
    I'll take the 'lesser' badge, but better car, thank you.

    It's all down to personal taste...


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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ess_Three View Post
    You pay more for the Audi as it is the premium product.
    But when premium (fake alloy shiny bits and LED lit tat) means you don't get the chassis and fun...you can keep it.
    I'll take the 'lesser' badge, but better car, thank you.

    It's all down to personal taste...
    So its the `Emperors new clothes` scenario, `The Great AUDI Swindle`?

    Have we really all been foolled by the cheap shiny bits?
    That a lot of people to fool, is everyone JUST a badge snob?

    As far as fun goes, again, Ive not driven the 20TFSI but have owned a 2 x MK5 Gti and an S3 back to back and the Golf simply is not superior in the fun stakes. It really isnt.

    Agree personal taste does play a big part in such an evaluation as does the whole `premium branding` thing.


    cheers
    Paul
    Now:
    -MK2 Golf Gti 16V/VR6, Oak Green, Shrick, Intake, Decat, Kish Retrim, Lenso BSX..
    -BMW 335d Xdrive, Estoril Blue, fully loaded.

    Before:
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    BMW 320d M Sport
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    Golf MK5 GTi 20TFSI - REVO Stage1, Red.
    Golf MK5 GTi 20TFSI - Std, Shadow Blue
    Civic Type `R`
    Golf MK4 GTi 18T - 200bhp, MTM ECU, Forge DV
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  4. #43
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    I think ive found a VW 2.0t FSI GTI DSG!!!

    not sure if it is too pricey but is the perfect spec

    2005 30k miles grey
    light pack
    winter pack
    VW extended warranty (9 months left)
    VW Sat nav unit (similar to the RNS-E)
    Golf edition 30 alloys
    upgraded Stereo with 6 cd changer
    Full leather interior - 5 door

    asking 13.5k but would take 13k so im told

    too pricey? has got all the specs i want plus the VW warranty
    Last edited by Duncan; 2nd March 2009 at 09:01. Reason: extra info

  5. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan View Post
    I think ive found a VW 2.0t FSI GTI DSG!!!

    not sure if it is too pricey but is the perfect spec

    2005 30k miles grey
    light pack
    winter pack
    VW extended warranty (9 months left)
    VW Sat nav unit (similar to the RNS-E)
    Golf edition 30 alloys
    upgraded Stereo with 6 cd changer
    Full leather interior - 5 door

    asking 13.5k but would take 13k so im told

    too pricey? has got all the specs i want plus the VW warranty
    Very nice spec.

    Im not a huge fan of the MK5 in Grey but thats nothing more than personal taste, I also like the MONZAII Alloys even though they are high maintenence. That said, the ED30 looks good in grey so maybe think about colour coding the kit? (then remap it!)

    As a guide, I sold a 54 Plate (red 3 door), similar spec but without NAV, with onkly 20K miles for 13K.

    Assuming its in excellent order, 13K isnt a bad price, 13.5K sounds a bit too much.

    Good luck

    Paul
    Now:
    -MK2 Golf Gti 16V/VR6, Oak Green, Shrick, Intake, Decat, Kish Retrim, Lenso BSX..
    -BMW 335d Xdrive, Estoril Blue, fully loaded.

    Before:
    S3 (8P), Ibis, DSG, Milltek, SHARK

    BMW 320d M Sport
    S3 (8P), Sprint, REVO, H&R Springs, BBS CHs,

    Golf MK5 GTi 20TFSI - REVO Stage1, Red.
    Golf MK5 GTi 20TFSI - Std, Shadow Blue
    Civic Type `R`
    Golf MK4 GTi 18T - 200bhp, MTM ECU, Forge DV
    Golf MK3 VR6 - Cat Back
    Corrado VR6 - JAMEX
    Corrado G60 - JAMEX, BRM Charger rebuild
    etc....

  6. #45
    Gti Jazz Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ess_Three View Post
    You pay more for the Audi as it is the premium product.
    But when premium (fake alloy shiny bits and LED lit tat) means you don't get the chassis and fun...you can keep it.
    I'll take the 'lesser' badge, but better car, thank you.
    Just to add my 2p, surely given that the A3 has the same basic chassis it can be made to handle as good as the Golf (all be it at extra cost using off the shelf kit) where as a dash and interior change in a Golf is a lot more involved ?

    Other thing I would say about a comparison of the 170TDi against a TFsi is the nose weight difference.

    Try and get a decent drive of both models is what I would recommend.

    Paul
    2011 (MY12) Skoda Octavia II FL VRS Manual Hatch 2.0Tsi in Race Blue.
    Gone not forgotten -
    2005 Black A3 (8P1) S-Line 2.0TDi DSG. Eibach Pro Springs, Koni FSD shocks and a few bling bits inside.
    Revo 99 GTi Turbo, too much to list mod wise.
    92 Golf Gti Mark 2 16V.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulAr View Post
    Very nice spec.

    Im not a huge fan of the MK5 in Grey but thats nothing more than personal taste, I also like the MONZAII Alloys even though they are high maintenence. That said, the ED30 looks good in grey so maybe think about colour coding the kit? (then remap it!)

    As a guide, I sold a 54 Plate (red 3 door), similar spec but without NAV, with onkly 20K miles for 13K.

    Assuming its in excellent order, 13K isnt a bad price, 13.5K sounds a bit too much.

    Good luck

    Paul
    just a thought - but could get one similar age and mileage for 11k, ok so no leather (not bothered about that) no VW warranty

    maybe im better off spending that 2k and getting:

    xenon light conversion
    retro-fit VW Sat Nav
    upgrade Stereo
    Buy a warranty from VW

    probably still have some change left over!!!

    is that a better move than spending 2k and it having all the specs i want?

  8. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan View Post
    I think ive found a VW 2.0t FSI GTI DSG!!!

    not sure if it is too pricey but is the perfect spec

    2005 30k miles grey
    light pack
    winter pack
    VW extended warranty (9 months left)
    VW Sat nav unit (similar to the RNS-E)
    Golf edition 30 alloys
    upgraded Stereo with 6 cd changer
    Full leather interior - 5 door

    asking 13.5k but would take 13k so im told

    too pricey? has got all the specs i want plus the VW warranty
    If you can stretch a little more you could get an Edition 30. Much more power potential from a remap if thats your thing
    Sold: A3 2.0 TDI 170 S-line | Full leather | BOSE | Phantom Black | Bluefin
    Now: Mini John Cooper Works

  9. #48
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    The GTI interior is poor when compared to the Audi, but bar that is a fair better drive, and the 2.0TFSI is capable of high 30's MPG when driven sensibly. And unless you do more than 15,000 miles a year , a petrol is going to be cheaper to run, due to themore expensive diesel at the pump.

    Drive them all back to back for a more accurate idea for yourself
    www.bmvs-camperhire.co.uk VW California hire and sales

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    If you can stretch a little more you could get an Edition 30. Much more power potential from a remap if thats your thing
    cheapest edition 30 ive seen is 14.5k and to be honest 13k is really stretching my budget + insurance costs will go up a fair bit since its group 18 not 17.

    think ill be content with the power of a remapped GTI, wont remap for a while though until i get used the GTI

  11. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gti Jazz Blue View Post
    Just to add my 2p, surely given that the A3 has the same basic chassis it can be made to handle as good as the Golf (all be it at extra cost using off the shelf kit) where as a dash and interior change in a Golf is a lot more involved ?
    They share a platform...not directly a chassis...so slight differences there.
    But, sure, an A3 can be improved...but do the same to a golf and the game changes again, although you'd expect them to be very similar on identical aftermarket suspension.

    Out of the box though, the GTI is a superior drivers car, in my opinion.

    Other thing I would say about a comparison of the 170TDi against a TFsi is the nose weight difference.
    I agree...
    The diesel must be heavier...unsure by how much.

    The thing is, the Golf GTI and A3 with the same engine are not marketed against each other directly, I don't believe.
    The Golf is more a 'Hot Hatch' type car...more show, more involvement at the expense of luxury and equipment.
    The A3 is the more upmarket car...more refined perhaps?
    But not as thrilling...


    Try and get a decent drive of both models is what I would recommend.
    That's the only way.


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  12. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oli. View Post
    the 2.0TFSI is capable of high 30's MPG when driven sensibly. And unless you do more than 15,000 miles a year , a petrol is going to be cheaper to run, due to themore expensive diesel at the pump.

    Drive them all back to back for a more accurate idea for yourself
    Is it though?
    30+ MPG from a TFSI vs 50+ from a TDI driven the same way?
    Hammer the TFSI and it'll drop to around 30 MPG...the TDI will still be doing mid 40s driven hard.
    Around 30% better from a diesel.

    I don't recall petrol being 25-30% cheaper than diesel.


    The main difference is how they deliver the power and torque though...
    Very different...and only the buyer can decide which is best for him.
    Markej likes this.


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  13. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulAr View Post
    So its the `Emperors new clothes` scenario, `The Great AUDI Swindle`?

    Have we really all been foolled by the cheap shiny bits?
    I don't think that's the case.
    But some people prefer the luxury, flash bells and whistles etc that the Audis get over the VW/Skoda/SEAT versions on the same platform.
    There is no doubt that Audis interiors are flasher...not so sure about better screwed together, but certainly using better spec materials. They tend to have more "nice to have's"

    In the case of a Golf GTI vs comparable Audi...the hot hatch market seem to prefer the 'go' and dynamics over the luxury aspect...so perhaps set their expectations a little lower interior wise, in order to have the chassis?
    I don't know...
    Nice to have's are just that, to many people. Nice if they are fitted standard...but would you buy an A3 simply because it had silver plastic, fake alloy air vents and a Golf didn't? (just to illustrate a point!)
    I doubt it...


    That a lot of people to fool, is everyone JUST a badge snob?
    No, not everyone.
    But there are those.
    Same can be said for GTI buyers though...the GTI badge is something many aspire to.


    As far as fun goes, again, Ive not driven the 20TFSI but have owned a 2 x MK5 Gti and an S3 back to back and the Golf simply is not superior in the fun stakes. It really isnt.
    A bit unfair comparing an S3 to a GTI though Paul.
    The S3 is a fine car...and offers many things the GTI doesn't...but at a cost.

    Comparing a cooking A3 with a GTI spec engine to the GTI, will leave you under no illusion that the GTI is the better drive...you know that in only a few minutes.


    Agree personal taste does play a big part in such an evaluation as does the whole `premium branding` thing.
    Of course it does...
    There is no right and wrong...as both are damn good cars.
    You buy what suits you at the price you can afford.


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  14. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan View Post
    just a thought - but could get one similar age and mileage for 11k, ok so no leather (not bothered about that) no VW warranty

    maybe im better off spending that 2k and getting:

    xenon light conversion
    retro-fit VW Sat Nav
    upgrade Stereo
    Buy a warranty from VW

    probably still have some change left over!!!

    is that a better move than spending 2k and it having all the specs i want?
    Leather - Ive had both leather and cloth. The leather looks nicer but the cloth felt more comfortable.

    Xenons - If it has them great, I wouldnt personaly pay for a retrofit. They are just lights!

    Retro fit NAV - Finishes the interior off nice, probably worth doing.

    Stereo - I found the std system adequate, better than most std fit systems.

    Warranty - Buy a good car. properly maintaned, with low miles and you wont need it. Most of the `problems` will have manifested themselves within the first 3 years and will have alreayd been addressed.

    And yes I reckon you should get a nice GTi for 10-12K, particularly an early 2005 example. Ive not looked at the classifieds for a while though so might be a bit out of touch.

    18" Wheels are a must too, 17s look lost and ride too `soft`. 18s have much better sporty feel. (Ive had both)

    Dont forget the REVO map, its fantastic.

    Hope this helps, even if some of it is my own opinion.

    cheers
    Paul
    Now:
    -MK2 Golf Gti 16V/VR6, Oak Green, Shrick, Intake, Decat, Kish Retrim, Lenso BSX..
    -BMW 335d Xdrive, Estoril Blue, fully loaded.

    Before:
    S3 (8P), Ibis, DSG, Milltek, SHARK

    BMW 320d M Sport
    S3 (8P), Sprint, REVO, H&R Springs, BBS CHs,

    Golf MK5 GTi 20TFSI - REVO Stage1, Red.
    Golf MK5 GTi 20TFSI - Std, Shadow Blue
    Civic Type `R`
    Golf MK4 GTi 18T - 200bhp, MTM ECU, Forge DV
    Golf MK3 VR6 - Cat Back
    Corrado VR6 - JAMEX
    Corrado G60 - JAMEX, BRM Charger rebuild
    etc....

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    so sounds like it could be worth holding out for a model that has is around 11k-12k, do like the sound of the VW extended warranty though - complete peice of mind for 9 more months and will probably be able to extend it for another year when it runs out.

    i agree, 18's look much better! at the moment it has the Edition 30 alloys fitted which i think are 18's - not 100% sure though..

    i just like the idea of having every extra i could possibly want already fitted! not sure if i would prefer a 5 door or a 3 door, 3 door looks better but would probably find the 5 door more useful over time!

    is a tricky one - might put a deposit down tonight since it is such a good spec, maybe if he went down to 12.5k i shoudl go for it otherwise buy a 11k one?

    cheers for the advice!

  16. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan View Post
    so sounds like it could be worth holding out for a model that has is around 11k-12k, do like the sound of the VW extended warranty though - complete peice of mind for 9 more months and will probably be able to extend it for another year when it runs out.

    i agree, 18's look much better! at the moment it has the Edition 30 alloys fitted which i think are 18's - not 100% sure though..

    i just like the idea of having every extra i could possibly want already fitted! not sure if i would prefer a 5 door or a 3 door, 3 door looks better but would probably find the 5 door more useful over time!

    is a tricky one - might put a deposit down tonight since it is such a good spec, maybe if he went down to 12.5k i shoudl go for it otherwise buy a 11k one?

    cheers for the advice!
    Worth a squeeze on the price if its the car you want.
    Make sure the warranty is transferable though.

    I started mine at 15K and let it go for 13K after 6 weeks of advertising. If hes had as many scammers and mongs emailing him as I did, he will already be softened up and ready to get rid!

    Oh, and the ED30 wheels are 18"s

    Good luck.

    Paul
    Now:
    -MK2 Golf Gti 16V/VR6, Oak Green, Shrick, Intake, Decat, Kish Retrim, Lenso BSX..
    -BMW 335d Xdrive, Estoril Blue, fully loaded.

    Before:
    S3 (8P), Ibis, DSG, Milltek, SHARK

    BMW 320d M Sport
    S3 (8P), Sprint, REVO, H&R Springs, BBS CHs,

    Golf MK5 GTi 20TFSI - REVO Stage1, Red.
    Golf MK5 GTi 20TFSI - Std, Shadow Blue
    Civic Type `R`
    Golf MK4 GTi 18T - 200bhp, MTM ECU, Forge DV
    Golf MK3 VR6 - Cat Back
    Corrado VR6 - JAMEX
    Corrado G60 - JAMEX, BRM Charger rebuild
    etc....

  17. #56
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    40-50 in a 170 quattro!! i must get mine into the dealer more like 30-40!! since i got it i have averaged 31.3mpg with a 50/50 split of town out of town driving i plan to drive from Perth to inverness on Friday so will work out that MPG but i bet it is closer to 35 than 45!

    unless you buy the Edition 30 or S3 you are going to get better re-sale value from an A3. (another can of worms?)

    How about a leon 150 bhp Diesel you will get a new model for your money....

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    have found another golf gti - it has had a WALD conversion - anyone heard of these??

  19. #58
    APL TDi's Avatar
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    The new seat leon fr has the same 170bhp engine as the A3...

    But the interior is NASTY!!!
    2004 140 TDi sport 3dr (new turbo)

  20. #59
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    The whole diesel vs petrol debate I remember was summed up quite well in a mag i read once. They were testing the 335D and the previous gen M3 (hadn't released the new one) and all but on the track the 335d ticked every box to keep up with the M3 they weren't trying to say either was better and they knew it wouldn't be the same type of customer their argument was that for "real world" driving the 335D could live with an M3 and cost a lot less to run.

    No two people are the same (ok maybe some identical twins haha!) so it all comes down to what you like and it has to be your thoughts alone. For me its the exact fact that the GTi looks more flashy that I'd have the A3, if I wanted a car to show off then I'd buy an old porsche 928. I have to say tho if I can make the cheddar i'll show off a GT3 in yellow every day of the week!
    Biggie Biggie Biggie can't you see!
    2008 a5 3.0TDi Quattro. And for when I wanna go fast.... Suzuki B-King (Hayabusa with no fairing, think 0-100 in 5.1 seconds!)

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    if talking about gti and 2.0t (sline)
    3dr version audi looks better
    5dr gti looks better

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    Just to chip in on price things - I picked up an 05 2.0tfsi s-line quattro with 28k on the clock for 10.5K a couple of weeks ago (from a dealer). You can do a lot better than the 12-13K being advertised.

    Can't comment on the GTi as I've never driven one, but I much prefer the power delivery on the tfsi vs the tdi - I kept running out of revs on the tdi, while the tfsi will pull all the way from 2000ish to the redline. For me being able to complete an overtake in one gear is nicer than having buckets of torque.

  23. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flibble View Post
    For me being able to complete an overtake in one gear is nicer than having buckets of torque.
    Isn't that the point of a diesel?
    You don't need to change gear?
    You leave it in 6th and just pull out and go...


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  24. #63
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    WALD GTIs are usually all high spec interior, have a 240BHP remap and are covered under warranty. Im pretty sure the majority are black too, unless someone has had the conversion in after-market

  25. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ess_Three View Post
    Isn't that the point of a diesel?
    You don't need to change gear?
    You leave it in 6th and just pull out and go...
    The TDIs can do 25 in 6th now?

  26. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flibble View Post
    The TDIs can do 25 in 6th now?
    And doing 25 in 6th has got what to do with pulling out to overtake, exactly?
    Who sits in 6th at 25 MPH?

    Actual on road overtaking flexibility is where a diesel scores over a petrol.

    Although, my diesel will happily tick along at idle in 6th...so yes, a diesel will do 25MPH in 6th....and I think you'll find they are happier doing so that the petrol variants.


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  27. #66
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    Because when you pull out to overtake you're often at 25-35 mph and hence not in 6th, so your comment about leaving it in 6th is a bit... odd.
    But fine, misinterpret what I said if you like, as long as you're happy with your car it doesn't much matter.

  28. #67
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    Whatever...

    I really don't understand what point you are tyring to make.

    Your comment:
    For me being able to complete an overtake in one gear is nicer than having buckets of torque.
    Is a contradiction. The diesel is more able to make real world overtakines in the same gear than the petrols, due to so much more immediate torque...so surely being able to complete an overtake in one gear is an indication of torque? Buckets of it, in fact.


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  29. #68
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    correct but it still sounds like farmer jiles comin down the road gimi a petrol anyday just the sound alone puts me off for life my mate was trying to tell me to get diesel but after dirving both cars i went for petrol more fun sounds lovely and bloody quick if diesels are so good why are all rs models or top of the range audis are all petrol and manuel because its a drivers car and better period s3 s4 rs4 s5 rs6 r8 alright there bringing out and r8 diesel but petrol is better if not ,,all top of the range audis would be deisel were always gone get the argument diesels are better an all that coming from diesel drivers but every car manufactor in the worlds top cars are petrol you dont see jeremy clackson screwing a diesel or the stig i think ive made my point and a good one i just got to wait for all the diesel owners to start retaliating with nonsence now lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Ess_Three View Post
    Whatever...

    I really don't understand what point you are tyring to make.

    Your comment:


    Is a contradiction. The diesel is more able to make real world overtakines in the same gear than the petrols, due to so much more immediate torque...so surely being able to complete an overtake in one gear is an indication of torque? Buckets of it, in fact.

  30. #69
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    Aahhh, The great derv v petrol debate.

    Always an interesting one, there was a great thread on UKMIVs.net a while back. But it all got a bit daft as most Golf GTTDI owners truly believed they had stumbled on motoring Nirvana...which they hadnt.
    Anyway, without wanting stoke this old fire again, Ive always taken a similar vew to Blazin here, in that the flagship/performance versions, of most performance model are always petrol. For a reason.
    How long for?
    Who knows.

    Cheers
    Paul
    Now:
    -MK2 Golf Gti 16V/VR6, Oak Green, Shrick, Intake, Decat, Kish Retrim, Lenso BSX..
    -BMW 335d Xdrive, Estoril Blue, fully loaded.

    Before:
    S3 (8P), Ibis, DSG, Milltek, SHARK

    BMW 320d M Sport
    S3 (8P), Sprint, REVO, H&R Springs, BBS CHs,

    Golf MK5 GTi 20TFSI - REVO Stage1, Red.
    Golf MK5 GTi 20TFSI - Std, Shadow Blue
    Civic Type `R`
    Golf MK4 GTi 18T - 200bhp, MTM ECU, Forge DV
    Golf MK3 VR6 - Cat Back
    Corrado VR6 - JAMEX
    Corrado G60 - JAMEX, BRM Charger rebuild
    etc....

  31. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10blazin View Post
    correct but it still sounds like farmer jiles comin down the road gimi a petrol anyday just the sound alone puts me off for life my mate was trying to tell me to get diesel but after dirving both cars i went for petrol more fun sounds lovely and bloody quick if diesels are so good why are all rs models or top of the range audis are all petrol and manuel because its a drivers car and better period s3 s4 rs4 s5 rs6 r8 alright there bringing out and r8 diesel but petrol is better if not ,,all top of the range audis would be deisel were always gone get the argument diesels are better an all that coming from diesel drivers but every car manufactor in the worlds top cars are petrol you dont see jeremy clackson screwing a diesel or the stig i think ive made my point and a good one i just got to wait for all the diesel owners to start retaliating with nonsence now lol
    I think I get your point...through that barely readable jibberish...

    I have petrol cars too...so you don't need to convince me!

    But here's a thought:
    In todays 'Green' society, with emissiobns based tax and high fuel costs...what won Le Mans?
    Were all the Touring Cars powered by petrol engines?
    Hasn't Audi produced a range topping R8 with a compression ignition engine?

    The times are changing...

    I'm not going to get into the whole petrol vs diesel willy waving bull****...but there are benefits each way. To say you don't like one because it sounds like a tractor is blinkered...and to be blunt, bull****.
    Go drive a 330D BMW or a Merc diesel and tell me you can hear it at all, never mind hear it rattle.
    Oh...but they doesn't have 4 rings on the grille, so it doesn't count.

    As I said, the times are changing...

    Oh, and the petrol/manual argument doesn't hold water...
    I'm afraid many range topping Sportscars/Supercars don't even have a manual option.

    Didn't Clarkson take a diesel Jag round the 'ring?
    Maybe you missed that episode?

    Or maybe you choose to continue ignoring progress and reality?
    I don't care either way.


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  32. #71
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    i knew that comment would stoke the fire lol but either way essthree you can argue all you want but car manufacturers don't take your view all the top marks are petrol even if with tiptronic i no diesel is getting better and until farmer jiles leave the engine and you get the same performance as petrol i wont be owning one i agree on the bmw diesels do sound ok but on the next street this guy got a sport back diesel and every time i go past it and its running i think thank god

  33. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ess_Three View Post
    The times are changing...
    Indeed, whether we like it or not.

    I still think that Dervs in motorsport (however impressive), are a product of a wider R&D exercise with all the marketing benefits that come with it.

    Im not a big derv fan, but Ive come to respect the capabilty of modern dervs cars, and that, heaven forbid, I might have to own one in the future.

    RS4 Tdi Anyone?

    Make a derv sound and rev like a petrol and I will have one tomorrow.

    Paul
    Now:
    -MK2 Golf Gti 16V/VR6, Oak Green, Shrick, Intake, Decat, Kish Retrim, Lenso BSX..
    -BMW 335d Xdrive, Estoril Blue, fully loaded.

    Before:
    S3 (8P), Ibis, DSG, Milltek, SHARK

    BMW 320d M Sport
    S3 (8P), Sprint, REVO, H&R Springs, BBS CHs,

    Golf MK5 GTi 20TFSI - REVO Stage1, Red.
    Golf MK5 GTi 20TFSI - Std, Shadow Blue
    Civic Type `R`
    Golf MK4 GTi 18T - 200bhp, MTM ECU, Forge DV
    Golf MK3 VR6 - Cat Back
    Corrado VR6 - JAMEX
    Corrado G60 - JAMEX, BRM Charger rebuild
    etc....

  34. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10blazin View Post
    and you get the same performance as petrol i wont be owning one
    Perhaps you should remove your Audi blinkers and go drive a 3 Series 320i vs 320D or D3?

    320i - 170 BHP / 210 nm. 0-60 in 8.1. 143 MPH top end. 50-75 (4th) = 8.1
    320d - 177 BHP / 350 nm. 0-60 in 7.9. 144 MPH top end 50-75 (4th) = 6.6
    Faster 0-60, faster top end, faster 50-75.
    Or, what's this...? A High performance version...the D3 ? Same basic 2.0 diesel engine)
    D3 - 214 BHP / 450 nm. 0-60 in 6.9. 152 MPH top end.

    Only an example...
    But times are changing!

    Go drive a D3 and tell me that it either sounds like a diesel or isn't a performance version of the 3 series!


    Don't get me wrong...I'm not arguing that diesels are better. I'm merely offering an alternative view that goes against much of the accepted thinking about diesels.
    VAG diesels have a long way to go to be up there with the best...


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  35. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulAr View Post
    Indeed, whether we like it or not.

    I still think that Dervs in motorsport (however impressive), are a product of a wider R&D exercise with all the marketing benefits that come with it.
    I agree.
    There are advantages (less fuel stops/fuel carried) less gearchanges etc...but on the whole, I'd agree they started out as a marketing ploy. Now though, the dominance has made it impossible to go back!


    Im not a big derv fan, but Ive come to respect the capabilty of modern dervs cars, and that, heaven forbid, I might have to own one in the future.

    RS4 Tdi Anyone?
    I always said I'd never own one...
    But taking your head out of your arse, and actually going to see what the fuss is about opened my eyes.
    So I bought one...as it suited what I wanted.
    Would I want one as a weekend plaything? Nope...
    Do I see the advantages as an everyday car? Yup.

    RS4 chassis with 300BHP and 600 lb-ft?
    Mmm.....


    Make a derv sound and rev like a petrol and I will have one tomorrow.
    They do sound poor, don't they.
    Even if you get rid of the rattle...you only get a drone off them.
    No matter...it's no worse than a 1.8T!


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  36. #75
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    yeah probably the only example... im not saying diesels are ****e and there not there better for everyday driving economy etc at the moment but in about 2 years they wont with the price of diesel rocketing there was a 5th gear program they had a diesel and a petrol i think lupo's did you see it it turned out cheaper to run the petrol and he was nearly crying in the diesel at the performance that's just one example ... having said that Ive been in a golf 2 tdi and it was rapid and like paul ar says get it sounding right and good performance through all the gears then i would probably own one myself by the time they do that it will be cheaper to run petrol and you can still hear the BMW's diesels they maybe quieter but still sound a bag o ****e il stick to petrol thanks with a remap there's plenty of torque

    Quote Originally Posted by Ess_Three View Post
    Perhaps you should remove your Audi blinkers and go drive a 3 Series 320i vs 320D or D3?

    320i - 170 BHP / 210 nm. 0-60 in 8.1. 143 MPH top end. 50-75 (4th) = 8.1
    320d - 177 BHP / 350 nm. 0-60 in 7.9. 144 MPH top end 50-75 (4th) = 6.6
    Faster 0-60, faster top end, faster 50-75.
    Or, what's this...? A High performance version...the D3 ? Same basic 2.0 diesel engine)
    D3 - 214 BHP / 450 nm. 0-60 in 6.9. 152 MPH top end.

    Only an example...
    But times are changing!

    Go drive a D3 and tell me that it either sounds like a diesel or isn't a performance version of the 3 series!


    Don't get me wrong...I'm not arguing that diesels are better. I'm merely offering an alternative view that goes against much of the accepted thinking about diesels.
    VAG diesels have a long way to go to be up there with the best...

  37. #76
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    IMO the difference in ability between petrol and modern dervs is little or nothing and there are a million different scenarios and situations where one will have the edge over another.

    Because of this, the choice is becoming one of personal taste rather than just economy or performance.
    Its often down to the `characteristics` and `sensation` delivered by each type of car that influences ownership rather than `which is faster` `which is cheaper` debate anymore.

    As a petrol fan I will still take some convincing into a derv yet, but my blinkers have been off for a while now.

    cheers
    Paul
    Now:
    -MK2 Golf Gti 16V/VR6, Oak Green, Shrick, Intake, Decat, Kish Retrim, Lenso BSX..
    -BMW 335d Xdrive, Estoril Blue, fully loaded.

    Before:
    S3 (8P), Ibis, DSG, Milltek, SHARK

    BMW 320d M Sport
    S3 (8P), Sprint, REVO, H&R Springs, BBS CHs,

    Golf MK5 GTi 20TFSI - REVO Stage1, Red.
    Golf MK5 GTi 20TFSI - Std, Shadow Blue
    Civic Type `R`
    Golf MK4 GTi 18T - 200bhp, MTM ECU, Forge DV
    Golf MK3 VR6 - Cat Back
    Corrado VR6 - JAMEX
    Corrado G60 - JAMEX, BRM Charger rebuild
    etc....

  38. #77
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    I think VAG diesels helped bring it more to the mainstream to be honest, i mean think back to the horrible taxi's there were and thats all people remember about diesels. I think the new common rail engines are amazing I bet with a non resonated exhaust you'd get a petrol burble from it.

    If your talking about a remap to get as much torque as the diesel then re map the diesel and get more torque back again?

    I love the sound of the petrol engine in my bike but I can actually use the power of the rev range on a bike because you don't have to have clear road on the other side to use it. On the motorway I much prefel a diesel never having to leave 6th gear and still pulling away from most stuff after a slowdown.

    Its all about what you want and like best when you have driven it. I presonally don't like ragging a car to get the best from it and save it for the bike because its so so much easier to use but as with everything its all down to personal preference!
    Biggie Biggie Biggie can't you see!
    2008 a5 3.0TDi Quattro. And for when I wanna go fast.... Suzuki B-King (Hayabusa with no fairing, think 0-100 in 5.1 seconds!)

  39. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by biggiep View Post
    Its all about what you want and like best when you have driven it. I presonally don't like ragging a car to get the best from it and save it for the bike because its so so much easier to use but as with everything its all down to personal preference!
    Valid point, and I can relate to this as owning a CTR became a bit tiresome. Great car but hard work in the end.

    But many car enthusiasts dont have, or aspire to bike ownership, and a revvy petrol car ticks the box for them. Hence the strong Vtec following.

    For me Ive found a good comprimise, REVO`d S3, lots of torque but keeps delivering when revved hard.

    Not the sweetest sounding lump at low revs by any means, but great when blowing like a whore at 5000rpm and pulling like a train.
    Nice.

    Paul
    Now:
    -MK2 Golf Gti 16V/VR6, Oak Green, Shrick, Intake, Decat, Kish Retrim, Lenso BSX..
    -BMW 335d Xdrive, Estoril Blue, fully loaded.

    Before:
    S3 (8P), Ibis, DSG, Milltek, SHARK

    BMW 320d M Sport
    S3 (8P), Sprint, REVO, H&R Springs, BBS CHs,

    Golf MK5 GTi 20TFSI - REVO Stage1, Red.
    Golf MK5 GTi 20TFSI - Std, Shadow Blue
    Civic Type `R`
    Golf MK4 GTi 18T - 200bhp, MTM ECU, Forge DV
    Golf MK3 VR6 - Cat Back
    Corrado VR6 - JAMEX
    Corrado G60 - JAMEX, BRM Charger rebuild
    etc....

  40. #79
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    Thanks for everyones input!

    have just put a deposit down on a Candy White Golf GTI (with WALD conversion) 240bhp
    15k
    2006
    xenons
    18' monza II's
    color coded
    6 cd changer
    electric sunroof
    5 door
    DSG

    paid a little over odds but has everything i want and is from a VW garage so comes with 1 year warranty!

    should be picking it up on monday although do have a long drive to get it - driving from east sussex to north yorkshire and back on the same day lol

    Cheers

    Duncan

  41. #80
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    Nice spec Duncan!
    Enjoy it...lovely car.
    5dr and DSG...my sort of spec!


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