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Thread: 4WD vs. RWD...

  1. #41
    windsurfer

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    sorry but that video is not a reliable comparison between 4WD and RWD....

    There is significance difference in power outputs, significant difference in weight and also in suspension setups...

    A new Subaru vs a M Sport 335i would be a fairer comparison between transmission systems... Even though cars are for different markets/targets...

    Pedro
    FOR SALE: S3 Phantom Black, left hand drive, Xenons, FBMFSW, bucket seats, BOSE, rear parking sensors, armrest, interior light package, Symphony II+. Full Audi service history and 4 new Michelin Pilot Sport 2. 18500 miles PM for details! I want to give it away have a good family reason. For a quick sale around 19.5k PM only if interest is genuine! Thanks

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  3. #42
    windsurfer

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    well Paul... just make sure you stay sober with that mate of yours around.... just a thought... you might wake up in a nightmare.... ahahahah

    Pedro
    FOR SALE: S3 Phantom Black, left hand drive, Xenons, FBMFSW, bucket seats, BOSE, rear parking sensors, armrest, interior light package, Symphony II+. Full Audi service history and 4 new Michelin Pilot Sport 2. 18500 miles PM for details! I want to give it away have a good family reason. For a quick sale around 19.5k PM only if interest is genuine! Thanks

  4. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNH80 View Post
    he caught the bus 15 miles back home. Quite superb.
    AHhh the David Banner walk home.......i know it well

    p

  5. #44
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    I bet the 4wd would have been significantly faster on a wet track.

    Thats where 4wd comes into its own, and seeing as the roads spend at least as much time wet as they do dry, for a road car 4wd makes sense (ie less than ideal or variable traction conditions).

    I bet the 2wd is more fun though, and I'd rather drive it round a dry track than the 4wd.

    Theres no right or wrong answer, I think as a means of getting from a-b with minimum fuss and a good amount of speed then 4wd is hard to beat, but if you want fun or excitement then choose rwd.

  6. #45
    windsurfer

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    I agree julians... that is why I start to prefer to have a 4WD car... for every condition all round car is the best option... For really enjoy driving and a race track... a proper rear wheel drive would be great.

    But in this country it makes lot of sense having a 4WD as a everyday car... just adds a little bit more of active safety.... But I know some racing drivers here don'y really need it... ahaha

    Pedro
    FOR SALE: S3 Phantom Black, left hand drive, Xenons, FBMFSW, bucket seats, BOSE, rear parking sensors, armrest, interior light package, Symphony II+. Full Audi service history and 4 new Michelin Pilot Sport 2. 18500 miles PM for details! I want to give it away have a good family reason. For a quick sale around 19.5k PM only if interest is genuine! Thanks

  7. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom View Post
    AHhh the David Banner walk home.......i know it well

    p
    LOL superb!!!!!

  8. #47
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    Just to set the record straight the BMW 335i SE Coupe has the same Sports suspension as the M Sport Coupe, as it is standard spec. The SE can be specced as standard with 17's, but with 18's and 19's has the same size tyres as the M Sport with the same tyre size. The 335 shown there has the 18" wheel option. So handling sould be the same

    I have driven an 335i and can say they feel a lot quicker than the figures say, with torque and power right accross the range. I had a mapped 335D before my S3, which would easily keep up with the 335i.......much to the 335i drivers disgust!!
    www.bmvs-camperhire.co.uk VW California hire and sales

  9. #48
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    Oh and good video by the way
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  10. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by julians View Post
    I bet the 4wd would have been significantly faster on a wet track.

    Thats where 4wd comes into its own, and seeing as the roads spend at least as much time wet as they do dry, for a road car 4wd makes sense (ie less than ideal or variable traction conditions).

    I bet the 2wd is more fun though, and I'd rather drive it round a dry track than the 4wd.

    Theres no right or wrong answer, I think as a means of getting from a-b with minimum fuss and a good amount of speed then 4wd is hard to beat, but if you want fun or excitement then choose rwd.
    Agree.
    A dry track, represents very small % of British roads. Roads and tracks are very different.
    As a test, It just doesnt tell you much aout how good the car is in real world driving.

    Paul

  11. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNH80 View Post
    I know what you're saying but the point of me posting the video wasn't necessarily to compare these 2 cars inparticular but more to highlight the difference or lack of, on a track scenario between RWD and 4WD
    BMW with less bhp, putting the drive through the rear wheels was faster around a track and it wasn't even the M-Sport model which i guarantee would have been a second faster. That is the point i was highlighting and asking the queston why people think that is the case?
    Statistics are clearly only half the story and in this case all 4WD did for the S5 was throw away it's power advantage. So in a performance orientated car, if it can't do the business on the track... What's all the quattro trickery there for?

    If i was Audi (which i'm clearly not) i would consider looking at 'reverse' Haldex. Bang most of the drve to the rear, say 80/20 and then allow it to be up to 100% transferable to the front if and when needed. All the 50/50 balanced quattro seems to do is steal power and as this test proves, on dry tarmac it serves no real purpose.
    Ok, I get what your saying, but to truly compare the merits of 4wd v Rwd , you will need identical cars, engines, tyre prsssures, driver skills etc, but one would have have 4wd and the other Rwd.

    Different makes of car, different engines, chassis set-up etc etc....is far from a conclusive evaluation of whether 4wd is, or isnt quicker than Fwd. Without a level playing field then such a test is no more than a point of conversation point IMO.

    I think we would all agree that 4wd alone doesnt make it a quick car, there a many other elements to factor in..

    Agree though that Rwd is a laugh though, Ive driven my mates M3 a few times in the wet and dry and its brilliant, but a right handfull in the wet , even with TC on.

    Was watching an old Top Gear on Dave few weeks back and Clarkson made a good sumation of the M3 v S4.

    The M3 was a hoot and the one to have a laugh in and take to the track.
    But the S4 was the one top have day to day.
    Im guessing that was to do with the sure footed qualities of a powerful 4wd car.

    Cheers, and have fun giving those demo cars a work out.

    paul

  12. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oli.H View Post
    Just to set the record straight the BMW 335i SE Coupe has the same Sports suspension as the M Sport Coupe, as it is standard spec. The SE can be specced as standard with 17's, but with 18's and 19's has the same size tyres as the M Sport with the same tyre size. The 335 shown there has the 18" wheel option. So handling sould be the same
    Your right! Ignore my previous post, all the others make do with comfy suspension. Although would it not put in slightly better times with the 19"s?

    J.
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  13. #52
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    I'd actually say that Audi's in general probably make better every day cars than BMW's. The interior is a nicer place to be, safe predictable 4WD handling for wet and snow, cheaper servicing, cheaper parts, more independent VAG specialists than BMW, people let you out of junctions more often, no one smiles at you in a BMW....ever. And yet today i'm getting insurance quotes for a 335i. What can i say....I liketo make life difficult for myself.
    A3 2.0T FSI Quattro S-Line, 3 Door, Avus Silver (special ed.)

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  14. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom View Post
    AHhh the David Banner walk home.......i know it well

    p
    You gotta love the walk of shame, sunday mornings when I take Sam to feed the ducks you see the young ladies looking slightly battered in their going out gear. Heads hung low shuffling back home...

    J.
    Married and blonde yes, but still a guy with a poor taste in usernames!

    Mercedes Benze E-class 350 sport convertable, black, pacha grey leather, 19" AMG rims, HK stero and a few more toys
    VW Scirocco 2.0Tsi GT with Revo stage 2, evoms induction kit, lowered, short shift, miltek
    BMW 330 Coupe M sport Black, Black leather, Nav and a lot of other options.
    BMW Z4 Coupe Sport in black with a few toys - going friday and gonna be missed by my lad.
    A3 2.0Tdi S-Line DSG. Gone but not forgotten

  15. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNH80 View Post
    I'd actually say that Audi's in general probably make better every day cars than BMW's. The interior is a nicer place to be, safe predictable 4WD handling for wet and snow, cheaper servicing, cheaper parts, more independent VAG specialists than BMW, people let you out of junctions more often, no one smiles at you in a BMW....ever. And yet today i'm getting insurance quotes for a 335i. What can i say....I liketo make life difficult for myself.
    No your wrong My Bm is a lovely place to be, I spend 2-3 hours a day in it. It's comfortable, fast and can be a relaxing cruiser (just leave it in 6th and it'll happily go from 30mph to 160mph. Sevicing isn't cheap I agree but the level of service, I find, is a lot better than I had with my Audi.

    If AWD is so much safer and predictable why aren't all cars AWD...

    I think the whole "no one lets you out", everyone calls you a w4nker etc doesn't hold true any more. I get a lot of positive commenta about my car, thumbs up etc ad I never have problems getting let out of junctions. I'm always in the BMW lane on the motorway and dual carriage ways so can't comment about being let out to overtake

    Fair enough some people just don't like BMW's.

    J.
    Married and blonde yes, but still a guy with a poor taste in usernames!

    Mercedes Benze E-class 350 sport convertable, black, pacha grey leather, 19" AMG rims, HK stero and a few more toys
    VW Scirocco 2.0Tsi GT with Revo stage 2, evoms induction kit, lowered, short shift, miltek
    BMW 330 Coupe M sport Black, Black leather, Nav and a lot of other options.
    BMW Z4 Coupe Sport in black with a few toys - going friday and gonna be missed by my lad.
    A3 2.0Tdi S-Line DSG. Gone but not forgotten

  16. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by marriedblonde View Post
    You gotta love the walk of shame, sunday mornings when I take Sam to feed the ducks you see the young ladies looking slightly battered in their going out gear. Heads hung low shuffling back home...

    J.
    "Need a lift sweetheart??"
    A3 2.0T FSI Quattro S-Line, 3 Door, Avus Silver (special ed.)

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  17. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNH80 View Post
    "Need a lift sweetheart??"
    <shudder> sloppy seconds of thirds...
    Married and blonde yes, but still a guy with a poor taste in usernames!

    Mercedes Benze E-class 350 sport convertable, black, pacha grey leather, 19" AMG rims, HK stero and a few more toys
    VW Scirocco 2.0Tsi GT with Revo stage 2, evoms induction kit, lowered, short shift, miltek
    BMW 330 Coupe M sport Black, Black leather, Nav and a lot of other options.
    BMW Z4 Coupe Sport in black with a few toys - going friday and gonna be missed by my lad.
    A3 2.0Tdi S-Line DSG. Gone but not forgotten

  18. #57
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    I've read some of your posts MB, don't get all 'holier than thou'. Too late for that! Just think of it as someone warming up your seat for you.
    A3 2.0T FSI Quattro S-Line, 3 Door, Avus Silver (special ed.)

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  19. #58
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    LOL... your right, look at the positives, someones just laid the tracks for me, drilled a pilot hole so to speak
    Married and blonde yes, but still a guy with a poor taste in usernames!

    Mercedes Benze E-class 350 sport convertable, black, pacha grey leather, 19" AMG rims, HK stero and a few more toys
    VW Scirocco 2.0Tsi GT with Revo stage 2, evoms induction kit, lowered, short shift, miltek
    BMW 330 Coupe M sport Black, Black leather, Nav and a lot of other options.
    BMW Z4 Coupe Sport in black with a few toys - going friday and gonna be missed by my lad.
    A3 2.0Tdi S-Line DSG. Gone but not forgotten

  20. #59
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    I agree with MB.
    I'm finding the whole BMW ownership experience very pleasurable.
    The dealer is infinitely better than the frankly insulting Audi dealership.
    I also get favourable comments/questions/looks far more frequently.
    I do find people try to 'race' me more often, but that's either because they don't know what a D3 is and are curious as to what it can do, or they do know what a D3 is and are still curious as to what it can do.
    Either way, I'll give it a bash ( I know, I should let it go...)
    The rest of the stuff (junctions, indicators, blablabla) is all nonsense, in my experience.

    I'm not saying the car is faultless, as the paint is pissing me off (incredibly easily marked by bird crap) but I'm willing to forgive it's faults more than I did my A3, simply because I get a kick from driving it.
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  21. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by marriedblonde View Post
    You gotta love the walk of shame, sunday mornings when I take Sam to feed the ducks you see the young ladies looking slightly battered in their going out gear. Heads hung low shuffling back home...

    J.
    And the lads in there white shirts all sticking out at the back , and cheap black pants and shoes!



    p

  22. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by marriedblonde View Post
    <shudder> sloppy seconds of thirds...
    Yes but it would be moist
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  23. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowfer View Post
    I agree with MB.
    I'm finding the whole BMW ownership experience very pleasurable.
    The dealer is infinitely better than the frankly insulting Audi dealership.
    I also get favourable comments/questions/looks far more frequently.
    I do find people try to 'race' me more often, but that's either because they don't know what a D3 is and are curious as to what it can do, or they do know what a D3 is and are still curious as to what it can do.
    Either way, I'll give it a bash ( I know, I should let it go...)
    The rest of the stuff (junctions, indicators, blablabla) is all nonsense, in my experience.

    I'm not saying the car is faultless, as the paint is pissing me off (incredibly easily marked by bird crap) but I'm willing to forgive it's faults more than I did my A3, simply because I get a kick from driving it.
    I would consider a D3 coupe but i'm just not prepared to wait the quoted 7 months to get one quite frankly! Looks a great car though.
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  24. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNH80 View Post
    I would consider a D3 coupe but i'm just not prepared to wait the quoted 7 months to get one quite frankly! Looks a great car though.
    Who quoted you that, out of interest?
    If it was the leasing company, try giving Sytners (the importer) a call.
    If Sytners tell you the same, try giving John Clark in Aberdeen a call.
    Sytners told me I'd no chance of getting a D3, but John Clark had two in stock!
    I suppose Sytners were 'correct' in that their system showed they'd none left, so it just shows what phoning around can do.

    http://www.sytner.co.uk/
    http://www.johnclarkaberdeenbmw.co.uk/

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  25. #64
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    I understood 7 months was just the standard waiting time currently? Anyway cheers for that i'll have a butchers...
    A3 2.0T FSI Quattro S-Line, 3 Door, Avus Silver (special ed.)

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    S-Line gear knob, stick and gator.
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  26. #65
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    Bowfer, on the Alpina register link you posted last week with details of the D3 coupe it said on there it was a 7 month wait.

    J.
    Married and blonde yes, but still a guy with a poor taste in usernames!

    Mercedes Benze E-class 350 sport convertable, black, pacha grey leather, 19" AMG rims, HK stero and a few more toys
    VW Scirocco 2.0Tsi GT with Revo stage 2, evoms induction kit, lowered, short shift, miltek
    BMW 330 Coupe M sport Black, Black leather, Nav and a lot of other options.
    BMW Z4 Coupe Sport in black with a few toys - going friday and gonna be missed by my lad.
    A3 2.0Tdi S-Line DSG. Gone but not forgotten

  27. #66
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    I wouldn't take that as gospel though.
    Where there's a will, there's a way.
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  28. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowfer View Post
    Who quoted you that, out of interest?
    If it was the leasing company, try giving Sytners (the importer) a call.
    If Sytners tell you the same, try giving John Clark in Aberdeen a call.
    Sytners told me I'd no chance of getting a D3, but John Clark had two in stock!
    I suppose Sytners were 'correct' in that their system showed they'd none left, so it just shows what phoning around can do.

    http://www.sytner.co.uk/
    http://www.johnclarkaberdeenbmw.co.uk/

    If you're calling John Clark, as for Scott Miller.
    Sound lad.
    Sytners blow for sales... John Clark rocks. Service tho... Sytners has some fine ladies on the service desk.

  29. #68
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    My local Stratstones BMW dealer had some fine ladies on the desk. Problem was she was so far up her own ass it was untrue. Made me stand and wait literally 15 minutes while she finished a personal phone call!
    Needless to say i told the manager his staff were dog sh*t. Maybe it's because i look quite young but thats no excuse!
    A3 2.0T FSI Quattro S-Line, 3 Door, Avus Silver (special ed.)

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  30. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNH80 View Post
    . Maybe it's because i look quite young but thats no excuse!
    You are 100% right... same happened to me on Park Lane BMW in London and in Aberdeen Porsche... what a bunch of arseholes the salesmen...

    I am sure there are good ones though... but they mistake is that they assume things... imagine if I did the same with my costumers... I find that a rather pompous and arrogant manner!

    If I was one of them I would treat them the same if they were on a suit or just came from work with plaster in theur clothes... you would be surprised who actually has the real cash!!!!

    Pedro
    FOR SALE: S3 Phantom Black, left hand drive, Xenons, FBMFSW, bucket seats, BOSE, rear parking sensors, armrest, interior light package, Symphony II+. Full Audi service history and 4 new Michelin Pilot Sport 2. 18500 miles PM for details! I want to give it away have a good family reason. For a quick sale around 19.5k PM only if interest is genuine! Thanks

  31. #70
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    I had a very poor experience with my local AUDI dealer and Ive 2 good friends who have had bad (and expensive) experiences with both Porsche and BMW.
    On balance I would guess there is little to pick between them all.

  32. #71
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    As we know, the more money you have, the less you have to prove to other people. Roman Abramovich (spelling?!) favours jeans and a black plastic casio at all times. If he stepped foot into most prestige car showrooms he'd be stood like an idiot for half an hour.
    A3 2.0T FSI Quattro S-Line, 3 Door, Avus Silver (special ed.)

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  33. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNH80 View Post
    As we know, the more money you have, the less you have to prove to other people. Roman Abramovich (spelling?!) favours jeans and a black plastic casio at all times. If he stepped foot into most prestige car showrooms he'd be stood like an idiot for half an hour.
    yeah but with uncle Roman... the manager actually goes to his home... he doesn't have to step on the dealerships at all....

    Pedro
    FOR SALE: S3 Phantom Black, left hand drive, Xenons, FBMFSW, bucket seats, BOSE, rear parking sensors, armrest, interior light package, Symphony II+. Full Audi service history and 4 new Michelin Pilot Sport 2. 18500 miles PM for details! I want to give it away have a good family reason. For a quick sale around 19.5k PM only if interest is genuine! Thanks

  34. #73
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    Personally I never make the effort to go car shopping. I turned up at MB in camo shorts, flipflops and a dirty t-shirt. The sales staff couldnt have been more helpful. Same with BM.

    I don't dress up for work (if I did everyone would assume I didn't know what I was doing) so why should I when I go shopping.

    I think the whole attitude thing has nothing to do with a particular marque more to do with the sales staff. I've been ignored in audi, ford, renault and vauxhall garages...

    J.
    Married and blonde yes, but still a guy with a poor taste in usernames!

    Mercedes Benze E-class 350 sport convertable, black, pacha grey leather, 19" AMG rims, HK stero and a few more toys
    VW Scirocco 2.0Tsi GT with Revo stage 2, evoms induction kit, lowered, short shift, miltek
    BMW 330 Coupe M sport Black, Black leather, Nav and a lot of other options.
    BMW Z4 Coupe Sport in black with a few toys - going friday and gonna be missed by my lad.
    A3 2.0Tdi S-Line DSG. Gone but not forgotten

  35. #74
    Spin140's Avatar
    6th Gear

    Status
    Offline
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Derbyshire, England
    Posts
    2,013
    I'm afraid if I was made to wait for 15 mins whilst she finished a personal call I would interupt and remind her I am a customer, I hate rude people but its amazing how rude I can be in return.

    Likewise in all dealerships for all marques you get good and bad people.
    Wife - 12 BMW 320D 181 bhp, 8 Speed Auto, Melbourne Red, Heated Leather, privacy.
    10 S3 SB, Phantom, Buckets,Int light Pack, Privacy. (Sold)
    Golf GTi MK6 - Revo stage 2, ITG, Milltek Race TBE, AP Racing 4 pot BBK - Sold.
    10 S3 SB, Phantom, Buckets,Int light Pack, Privacy,Nav, Park sensors, 6 disc, Revo Stage 1, ITG Enclosed Intake - Sold
    BMW M135i F20 - Bloody good straight from the box !

    "Fast Cars are Safer...."

  36. #75
    jamiekip
    Guest
    Like all things it depends where you go.
    The Audi garage close to my parents un north sucks for service.
    My dad had called and said he wated to have a look at some A4 cab's for my mum. We arrived, had a look at the nearly new stock outside selected a few in the right price/spec. Then popped in to the showroom. Took 30 mins before a sales person even acknowledged our presence, then kept on wandering by saying "won't be a minute" for another 30 mins!
    My dad gave up in the end!

    The Service desk isn't much better.
    My old Audi was in to have the cluthc, master cylinder and peddle assembly replaced. A day and a half job and 900 bill. Only they forgot to start the job when the car arrived. I was visiting the North East and went to collect the car at 4:30 Sat afternoon to see my car still in bits in the workshop.
    They knew I was from London and they knew I needed it back. They kept a mechanic on the job until 1am to comlete and I had to wait for the car to be completed.... no compo and they accused me of taking the old clutch assembly and charged me for it..... eh!

    However, I've used a few other dealers now who have restored some faith, stand up and take a bow Harrogate Audi, Parklands Audi and West London Audi!

    Anyway, getting back on topic.

    I think given a choice of one car i'd try and stick with 4WD. I use my car to get tot he alps and all sorts and it just means I ahve less to wrorry about.
    Don't get me wrong, if I had the money, I'd love a rear wheel drive 'toy' and then an 4WD 'run around'!

 

 
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