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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by newbiecrg View Post
    EVO which I rate a lot more than Autocar has the S3 has the fastest hatch on a circuit.... Not that it is important but its their testing...

    Pedro

    Correct in Autocar the s3 was quickest followed by the r26, however on another circuit the r26 beat the new shape impreza sti!!!

    A well setup fwd can still perform well,4wd isnt the be all.

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  3. #42
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    I see there's a hatchback EVO in the offing
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  4. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowfer View Post
    Yeah, if you want to make efficient, undramatic, progress.
    There's more to driving than that though.
    There's fun to be had from driving a FWD/RWD car quickly in the wet.
    God knows electronics are taking all the skill away from driving as it is.
    4WD holds no interest to me at all, unless it's snowing.

    I doubt any driving enthusiast would disgree, all have their merits and not all appeal to everyone, Ive had FWD and RWD and Im enjoying my first 4wd right at the minute and its my preference as an allrounder.

    One of each in the garge would be nice but budget restricts that.......

    `undramatic progress` maybe?, 1000s of EVO and Sti drivers might have a different view on that.

    Paul

  5. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulAr View Post
    `undramatic progress` maybe?, 1000s of EVO and Sti drivers might have a different view on that.
    Paul
    I was specifically speaking about the S3, not all 4x4 sports saloons/hatchbacks.
    Subaru and EVO drivers would probably disagree but that's because, IMO, their cars are set-up to be more exciting than the S3.
    Don't they (or at least one of them) offer the ability to fiddle with the differential settings, for example?
    The S3 is set-up to be safe and undramatic, I stand by that statement.
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  6. #45
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    I would have to agree with Bowfer, my only criticism of the s3 is its lack of fun/involvement. It covers ground quick but thats down to the car not the driver.

    Subarus have an adjustable centre diff which can be as biased as 70/30 rear (i think) and the last generation evo's had 3 diff settings (hit gravel mode for some ass out action).

    Imo for fun you cant beat something like a 106 gti.

  7. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowfer View Post
    I was specifically speaking about the S3, not all 4x4 sports saloons/hatchbacks.
    Subaru and EVO drivers would probably disagree but that's because, IMO, their cars are set-up to be more exciting than the S3.
    Don't they (or at least one of them) offer the ability to fiddle with the differential settings, for example?
    The S3 is set-up to be safe and undramatic, I stand by that statement.
    EVO et al are certainly different beasts, you just said `4wd` that was the basis for my comment.
    And I reckon the S3 is probably safe and undramatic by comparison.

  8. #47
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    Said it many times... boring!

    The S3 is as Audi intended... they wanted a fast A-B no fuss everyday car... there you go S3! You can even see that in the service intervals!! If it was 100% performance biased it would need more maintenance/service to keep everything right (I mean things like suspension geometry, etc,etc) My car has covered 13k miles so far and never seen the dealership once... Only petrol stations and abou 1/4 liter of oil top up... that is it!! No fuss...

    Service in about 2500 miles... quite happy with it!

    S3 = speed, safety and good all round , all weather everyday car for the single professionals where diesel is not the preferred option and want a more sporty details/feel to the normal A3 range.

    Pedro
    FOR SALE: S3 Phantom Black, left hand drive, Xenons, FBMFSW, bucket seats, BOSE, rear parking sensors, armrest, interior light package, Symphony II+. Full Audi service history and 4 new Michelin Pilot Sport 2. 18500 miles PM for details! I want to give it away have a good family reason. For a quick sale around 19.5k PM only if interest is genuine! Thanks

  9. #48
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    We all know the S3 is not the most fun or the quickest car around...........................as a all round pacage the S3 is hard to beat..............thats why we bought one.

    Sure we could have had a Subaru,Evo,M3,R26,Ford,Honda , why didn't we?

    p

  10. #49
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    I've always been a fan of the RS and to be honest, it wouldn't suprise me if a stock RS ended up being a lot quicker than a stock S3 round a dry track. It'll have more power and once off the line it wont have to worry about scrabbling for grip. The old RS didn't have that much power and was still mighty round a track because of its clever LSD. I think it'll me more of the same from Ford. Lets face it, they know how to make a great handling chassis! I think the guess is that it'll be around 22K so it'll undercut the S3 by some margin. And before people get going, I've always wanted an S3 too! I just think thats how this one will play out...

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  11. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by newbiecrg View Post
    Said it many times... boring!

    The S3 is as Audi intended... they wanted a fast A-B no fuss everyday car... there you go S3! You can even see that in the service intervals!! If it was 100% performance biased it would need more maintenance/service to keep everything right (I mean things like suspension geometry, etc,etc) My car has covered 13k miles so far and never seen the dealership once... Only petrol stations and abou 1/4 liter of oil top up... that is it!! No fuss...

    Service in about 2500 miles... quite happy with it!

    S3 = speed, safety and good all round , all weather everyday car for the single professionals where diesel is not the preferred option and want a more sporty details/feel to the normal A3 range.

    Pedro
    Very well put.

  12. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teejay View Post
    yeah, the RS range, R8 and new Clubsport concepts definitely prove that!!

    The new RS range - a grown up super fast car, the R8 a grown up supercar, the clubsport concepts - they are conepts, lets see what makes it too market.

    So I stand by my earlier comment. The VXR, the Focus ST, the golf Gti these are all aimed at a different market audiance than the audi brand. Like I said audi's attract a more mature audiance.

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  13. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by marriedblonde View Post
    Like I said audi's attract a more mature audiance.

    J.
    Are you calling me old J.? Ahah

    Pedro
    FOR SALE: S3 Phantom Black, left hand drive, Xenons, FBMFSW, bucket seats, BOSE, rear parking sensors, armrest, interior light package, Symphony II+. Full Audi service history and 4 new Michelin Pilot Sport 2. 18500 miles PM for details! I want to give it away have a good family reason. For a quick sale around 19.5k PM only if interest is genuine! Thanks

  14. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by marriedblonde View Post
    The new RS range - a grown up super fast car, the R8 a grown up supercar, the clubsport concepts - they are conepts, lets see what makes it too market.

    So I stand by my earlier comment. The VXR, the Focus ST, the golf Gti these are all aimed at a different market audiance than the audi brand. Like I said audi's attract a more mature audiance.

    J.
    absolutely - ably demonstrated by the "restrained" styling, especially when compared to the likes of the VXR etc

  15. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by marriedblonde View Post
    When you say Audi appear to believe that 200bhp is the optimum power do you mean that their target audiance is a more mature driver? Where as VW, Seat, The VXR brand is probably aimed at a different audiance altogether?

    J.
    Not sure I understand how you confuse a statement about FWD/4WD with the maturity of an audience.

    A Citroen Saxo is FWD - for an youthful audience.
    A Volvo is FWD - for a mature audience.

    A Mitsubishi Evo is 4WD - for a youthful audience.
    A VW Touareg is 4WD - for a mature audience.

    What's your point ?
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  16. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iggu View Post
    Not sure I understand how you confuse a statement about FWD/4WD with the maturity of an audience.

    A Citroen Saxo is FWD - for an youthful audience.
    A Volvo is FWD - for a mature audience.

    A Mitsubishi Evo is 4WD - for a youthful audience.
    A VW Touareg is 4WD - for a mature audience.

    What's your point ?
    I didn't and I haven't. Perhaps try reading the thread?

    My comments where around why audi chooses to put only 200bhp through their FWD cars when other manufacturers choose to put much more.

    No confusion over AWD and FWD on my part.

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  17. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by newbiecrg View Post
    Said it many times... boring!

    The S3 is as Audi intended... they wanted a fast A-B no fuss everyday car... there you go S3! You can even see that in the service intervals!! If it was 100% performance biased it would need more maintenance/service to keep everything right (I mean things like suspension geometry, etc,etc) My car has covered 13k miles so far and never seen the dealership once... Only petrol stations and abou 1/4 liter of oil top up... that is it!! No fuss...

    Service in about 2500 miles... quite happy with it!

    S3 = speed, safety and good all round , all weather everyday car for the single professionals where diesel is not the preferred option and want a more sporty details/feel to the normal A3 range.

    Pedro
    I totally agree on what Pedro said.

    S3 is still the fastest Hot Hatch you can buy at the moment and thats not just my opinion. All the reviews and hot hatch comparison has the S3 as the fastest car.
    And this hyper Ford is not gonna be faster then the S3. Look at the ST, it looses big time in every hot hatch comparison I have seen.

    Here are some stats for you guys:

    Hockhenheim Track times:

    Audi S3 : 1.17,5

    Renault Megane R26 : 1.18,6

    BMW 130i : 1.19,2

    Leon Cupra : 1.19,2

    Mazda 3 MPS : 1.19,6

    Golf V GTI : 1.19,6

    All cars where tested by the german car mag Sport Auto

    Oschersleben Track times:

    Audi S3 : 1.49,2

    Mazda 3 MPS : 1.52,34

    VW Golf V R32 : 1.52,44

    RMS Ford ST ( 255 HP) : 1.52,69

    BMW 130i : 1.52,76

    Ford Focus RS : 1.53,92

    All cars where tested by german mag Autobild

    Bedford Autodrome Track times:

    Audi S3 : 1.30,4

    Mazda 3 MPS : 1.31,3

    BMW 130i : 1.31,7

    VW Golf V R32 : 1.32,55

    VW Golf V GTI : 1.33,75

    Tested by car mag EVO

    And I could continiue the list with other tracktimes and comparisons, where the S3 win, but for me the only true HOT HATCH is the Audi S3.
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  18. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by marriedblonde View Post

    My comments where around why audi chooses to put only 200bhp through their FWD cars when other manufacturers choose to put much more.


    J.
    Ah - the answer to that has nothing to do with target marketing or audience maturity.

    Its MONEY. Like the other German manufacturers (BMW, Mercedes, Porsche) VW/Audi are rolling in cash and have been for some years. Ford and General Motors, on the other hand, are virtually bankrupt having sold off Jaguar, Aston and Land Rover just to pay the bills.

    So how do Ford go about making a new hot hatch with 200bhp+? They borrow a 5 pot engine from sister company Volvo and dump it into an existing chassis with the cheapest set up possible (FWD). Then they chip it up (cheap to do) to 280bhp and hope that that headline figure plus the RS badge will sell enough units to keep the creditors at bay. The fact that, like the previous Focus RS, it will be a torqe-steering mess won't bother their accountants or creditors.

    How do VW/Audi do it when building the R32/S3 ? Do they get the Golf GTi and just chip it up ? No. They fundamentally change the engine, turbo, intercooler (in the S3) and transmission and change the set up to 4WD knowing (as Ford know but don't have the cash to do anything about it) that this is the most effective way of deploying 200bhp+.

    Both companies KNOW how to build performance cars (great Fords of the past were always either RWD or 4WD - not FWD) but only one has the financial means to do it.
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  19. #58
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    big difference is Audi have had a quattro setup in the A3 whereas the focus wasn't built this way, so it was cheaper for Audi to deploy 4WD in the S3

  20. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iggu View Post
    Its MONEY. Like the other German manufacturers (BMW, Mercedes, Porsche) VW/Audi are rolling in cash and have been for some years. Ford and General Motors, on the other hand, are virtually bankrupt having sold off Jaguar, Aston and Land Rover just to pay the bills.
    Very true, and under those conditions would you really want to part with 27k for an RS?
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  21. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by bacardi View Post
    big difference is Audi have had a quattro setup in the A3
    Because they've had the money to do that. Ford haven't - hence they're stuck with a FWD second best option as a platform for their big guns version.
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  22. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by staz1000 View Post
    Very true, and under those conditions would you really want to part with 27k for an RS?
    I wouldn't part with 2.7k for one !
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  23. #62
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    I think the price of the RS will be about 24k , anymore and it'll be out of reach for there target market.

    I for one will NOT be chopping in my S3 for a RS no matter how good it is , and i don't think many ( if any ) owners on here will do either.

    Most of us would of test drove the other hot hatches i drove the R26, ST and bought the Cupra.

    The St felt big and handled like a barge IMO , the interior was nothing special with it's tacky boost gauge's , and if the old RS is anything to go by the new one will be worse with it's rancid blue seats and door cards.

    If i wanted to step down in quality i'd buy a used R26 and pocket 10k.

    p

  24. #63
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    Even at 24k I wouldn't want one.

    The S3 might not be the most amazing car but it's not like we get to drive it to its limits much anyway. For me it goes like stink, handles very well, looks great (only in sprint blue though) and it's great inside.

    Going on the past RS the interior will be hideous, and since that's where you spend most of your time it's a no brainer.

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  25. #64
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    I just puked.
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  26. #65
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    For sure! I completely agree...

    If the Focus RS was 4 wheel drive (to continue rallying heritage?), had a 2.0 liter Turbo (maybe using some parts from the rally car), be lightweight and properly setup... than it would have made it very special indeed.... Like this if not the S3 I get a Golf GTI please...


    Pedro
    FOR SALE: S3 Phantom Black, left hand drive, Xenons, FBMFSW, bucket seats, BOSE, rear parking sensors, armrest, interior light package, Symphony II+. Full Audi service history and 4 new Michelin Pilot Sport 2. 18500 miles PM for details! I want to give it away have a good family reason. For a quick sale around 19.5k PM only if interest is genuine! Thanks

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    that is one sweeeeeet interior
    its got everything, curves, angles, straight lines, subtle smattering of blue highlights,

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    Still a Ford I have had RS's over the years and would never buy another Ford again since I moved to VAG Ford is never a car I would buy again no matter how good a write up it gets.
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  29. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iggu View Post
    Ah - the answer to that has nothing to do with target marketing or audience maturity.

    Its MONEY. Like the other German manufacturers (BMW, Mercedes, Porsche) VW/Audi are rolling in cash and have been for some years. Ford and General Motors, on the other hand, are virtually bankrupt having sold off Jaguar, Aston and Land Rover just to pay the bills.

    So how do Ford go about making a new hot hatch with 200bhp+? They borrow a 5 pot engine from sister company Volvo and dump it into an existing chassis with the cheapest set up possible (FWD). Then they chip it up (cheap to do) to 280bhp and hope that that headline figure plus the RS badge will sell enough units to keep the creditors at bay. The fact that, like the previous Focus RS, it will be a torqe-steering mess won't bother their accountants or creditors.

    How do VW/Audi do it when building the R32/S3 ? Do they get the Golf GTi and just chip it up ? No. They fundamentally change the engine, turbo, intercooler (in the S3) and transmission and change the set up to 4WD knowing (as Ford know but don't have the cash to do anything about it) that this is the most effective way of deploying 200bhp+.

    Both companies KNOW how to build performance cars (great Fords of the past were always either RWD or 4WD - not FWD) but only one has the financial means to do it.

    So according to you ford, Seat, VW, Vauxhall, Mazda, Alfa are all aimed at the same market as Audi, Marc and BM?

    And dont VW, Audi, Seat, Skoda all share the same running gear...

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  30. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by marriedblonde View Post
    So according to you ford, Seat, VW, Vauxhall, Mazda, Alfa are all aimed at the same market as Audi, Marc and BM?
    Eh? My points are to do with FWD, RWD and 4WD. I've made no observation about market segmentation at all so this statement must be according to you rather than me.

    I think my comments (and those of others in this thread) show that if Ford are aiming their cars at Audi owners they have truly lost the plot as we're just not interested ....
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  31. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveTDCi View Post
    I'm sure the Focus RS will be a great car and i would pick one over an S3, it'll be more exclusive and no doubt a better car.
    Ford will lean heavily on the exclusivity of the car plus the RS heritage to sell it. In my opinion though, and I say this as a fan of the RS marque, the spec is something of a disappointment. As someone else has already pointed out, you can remap an ST to 300bhp easily and who cares about exclusivity when you've got essentially the same car?With Ford's experience of chassis tuning, a 4x4 280bhp (or even 300bhp) version would have wiped clean the competition but they've chickened out on cost (to be fair, they are virtually bankrupt). A real pity - the S3 is still out in front as a result.
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  32. #71
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    I can confirm, my last car was a Focus ST-2, with Dreamscience Race + re-map. Car was dyno'd at 271.3 bhp. Which is a damn bit more than the prescribed 223 bhp which comes from factory!!!

    After all my audi troubles - I have gone back to Ford again - and have ordered a ST-3 this time, and will be doing exactly same portable mod to the Ford again. It would easily Eat a standard S3, there is no reason for it not to! Just because it is FWD, it is the best handling FWD Car in its class.... There has to be a reason ford haven't ported there 4wd chassis across from the Kuga.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcyboy View Post
    I can confirm, my last car was a Focus ST-2, with Dreamscience Race + re-map. Car was dyno'd at 271.3 bhp. Which is a damn bit more than the prescribed 223 bhp which comes from factory!!!

    After all my audi troubles - I have gone back to Ford again - and have ordered a ST-3 this time, and will be doing exactly same portable mod to the Ford again. It would easily Eat a standard S3, there is no reason for it not to! Just because it is FWD, it is the best handling FWD Car in its class.... There has to be a reason ford haven't ported there 4wd chassis across from the Kuga.
    No it's not , the Megane R26 is the best handling FWD car in the hothatch market.

    A 271.3bhp remapped ST will NOT eat a Std S3 , mine ( and others ) have been Dyno'd at 280+bhp and up to 300lbft some if not all put out more than book figures.

    In the dry it will be close ( down to driver ) in the wet the only thing the ST will be eating is my exhaust fumes.

    p

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcyboy View Post
    Just because it is FWD, it is the best handling FWD Car in its class.... There has to be a reason ford haven't ported there 4wd chassis across from the Kuga.
    That's an interesting point - I hadn't considered that. The Kuga is based on the Focus platform, and this was designed at the start to support 4WD.
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    There is a lot of figures being quoted but they only tell half the story, going back to the autocar review if the r26 had the same power as the s3 im pretty confident the lap times would have been prety much identical.

    The old focus rs only had 212bhp but that was a seriously quick car although i couldnt get on with so got an ep3 instead.

    Power, weight, traction and handling all come into play. I will put money on it that the RS will handle a lot better than the s3!!1

    Lets not forget though the s3 does it all with style, would i want to go meet a client in an s3 or an RS??? No brainer

    Which would i take for a sunday drive into the hills?? Probably the RS

  36. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcyboy View Post
    it is the best handling FWD Car in its class....
    Hahaha
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sohrob View Post
    There is a lot of figures being quoted but they only tell half the story, going back to the autocar review if the r26 had the same power as the s3 im pretty confident the lap times would have been prety much identical.

    The old focus rs only had 212bhp but that was a seriously quick car although i couldnt get on with so got an ep3 instead.

    Power, weight, traction and handling all come into play. I will put money on it that the RS will handle a lot better than the s3!!1

    Lets not forget though the s3 does it all with style, would i want to go meet a client in an s3 or an RS??? No brainer

    Which would i take for a sunday drive into the hills?? Probably the RS
    I don't think the S3 handles as bad as you say.

    Sure it's not as nible as the R26 , but it's no VXR either.

    My last long term car before the S3 was a Clio 182 , yep it's not as fun and it's not as flighty , over all you would say it's not as good , but it's not a million miles away either , the grip and the Haldex make up the ground where the Clio chassis excels.

    Try putting more air in the rear tyres to help reduce understeer and a set of H&R's help too

    p

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    The S3 is no trackday kit car to get your heart racing. A trip out in my friends DC2 Integra yesterday proved that. But the S3 is amore capable all rounder. Soo capable you feel a bit detached from the whole experience.

    I got a lift in my car yesterday after a few drinks, on the way home I was telling my Girlf "put yer hoof down" " "lets ave some thrills, were were still in 4th". She said "Im doing 80". I had to look at the clock, it felt more like 50 tops!

    Mind you, I just love the quality, build and surety of the whole package, so wouldnt have anything else.
    Just ma 2p worth.

    Please dont compare non mapped cars with mapped cars, talk about clutching at straws.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iggu View Post

    I think my comments (and those of others in this thread) show that if Ford are aiming their cars at Audi owners they have truly lost the plot as we're just not interested ....
    I guess that depends on if you are after the fastest hatch out there or after something else?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcyboy View Post
    I have gone back to Ford again - and have ordered a ST-3 this time, and will be doing exactly same portable mod to the Ford again. It would easily Eat a standard S3, there is no reason for it not to!
    I'm no Jason Plato but I've "eaten" STs and old style Focus RS's on numerous track days (Anglesey, Silverstone, Oulton Park, Cadwell) in my S3. Don't think this is at all true. And I'm not trying to big myself up here - it was the car (rather than my average skill level) which was the reason.
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    Who was comparing mapped cars to standard?

 

 
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