Full blown racing start in mapped S3

I'm not out for an argument

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I find that very hard to believe. You keep agreeing with my comments and then tearing them apart in the same paragraph.

Again, my comments are generalisations, and they are my opinions. Again I know not every 4WD car is better than every FWD. But if you were to take those great FWDs like the ITR and make them 4WD, and I will again include the caveat of it being set up properly, they would be faster. In a straight line or around a bend.

But in the environment that we live in of course we can't drive our cars anywhere near the limit on british roads. The most common example of someone using trying to use all the power in their car is TLGP. Whether you agree with the concept or not you have to agree that in that situation, with similarly matched power outputs (although in the wet they don't have to be that similar lol) 4WD is king. And I am a bit of a fan of TLGPs, in the town I live it is literally a set every 200m on average, so it's pretty much the only way you can give it the beans, so again I'll say, in my opinion 200HP or more wastes a lot of power spinning the wheels so why bother.

If you drive on lots of sweeping A roads then yeah of course a high powered FWD car will still be great fun, but when it comes to TLGPs you won't do so well. So why not buy a car that's good at both? The only people who it wouldn't really effect is those who never do TLGP, they don't need the traction of a 4WD so much and a good FWD would do them fine. But there are not many of those about.

I'll use the focus RS example again though. They're planning to put up to 300bhp in it with FWD. Now yes of course if they develop it properly it'll be a great car, but how much of a better car would it be with 4WD? And if so then why not fit it with it? If audi can do it for a car only £2000 more expensive to buy (although I think most of that is the interior compared to a focus) why can't ford?

Before the S3 i bought a MK 2 Cupra ( the new one ) 20.5k inc options , side skirts and spoiler as well, i mainly bought the car becouse it had the same internals , turbo, engaine as the S3 ( which was out of my price range ) put out a steady 260bhp on the rollers and mapped to 300+bhp just like the S3.

The car was fun getting it's power down on the road , the TC light was never off if you floored it , spinning if you took off from lights/out of junctions without even trying to launch.

You hed to feed the power in or tickle the throttle even in second gear or the TC would be cutting in!

I was planning on keeping the car a good few years and modding and remapping when the time was right , but for me 300+bhp through the front wheels would of been a headache i could do without, and not enjoy my car , ive read reports of spinning in 3rd gear on remapped cars!

I sold up and spent more than i should have on a S3 and i'm very happy , ive had the TC light come on the S3 a couple of time also! LOL

p

phantom said:

Before the S3 i bought a MK 2 Cupra ( the new one ) 20.5k inc options , side skirts and spoiler as well, i mainly bought the car becouse it had the same internals , turbo, engaine as the S3 ( which was out of my price range ) put out a steady 260bhp on the rollers and mapped to 300+bhp just like the S3.

The car was fun getting it's power down on the road , the TC light was never off if you floored it , spinning if you took off from lights/out of junctions without even trying to launch.

You hed to feed the power in or tickle the throttle even in second gear or the TC would be cutting in!

I was planning on keeping the car a good few years and modding and remapping when the time was right , but for me 300+bhp through the front wheels would of been a headache i could do without, and not enjoy my car , ive read reports of spinning in 3rd gear on remapped cars!

I sold up and spent more than i should have on a S3 and i'm very happy , ive had the TC light come on the S3 a couple of time also! LOL

p

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A comment on this:
The TC system on a Cupra is crap. Basic, and cheap.
Give that car a decent TC system and an LSD, and it could be transformed...they don't to keep costs down.

Again...in general terms, FWD CAN be made to be as good as 4WD if there is enough money spent on the development of the chassis and the 4WD system being compared to isn't *that* great (Haldex!)

I'm just struggling to see how people can be so blinkered as to not acknowledge what's possible simply because they have a 'quattro'.
It's pathetic...(not aimed at you phantom..)

The statement "4WD is better than FWD" simply cannot be made with any conviction...unless the person making it is a blinkered, ignorant fool.
In my experience...

staz1000 said:

I find that very hard to believe. You keep agreeing with my comments and then tearing them apart in the same paragraph.

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Because much of them are valid and I agree with...but others I'm trying to offer an opposing view...which you seem incapable of seeing.
From a personal point of view, I've played with chassis set up, diffs, TC systems, launch control systems and 4WD systems...and there are plusses each way...
I don't believe that it's possible to state that 4WD is better than FWD. There are too many factors to consider.

Again, my comments are generalisations, and they are my opinions.

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...and all I'm trying to do is offer an example of why the generisation may not be true.

I'm not out to argue...merely offering an alternative view...I couldn't care whether you think a 4WD car makes the world go round or not...i'm merely presenting facts and experiences that support an alternative view.

Again I know not every 4WD car is better than every FWD. But if you were to take those great FWDs like the ITR and make them 4WD, and I will again include the caveat of it being set up properly, they would be faster. In a straight line or around a bend.

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I honestly don't believe a car like the ITR would be better with 4WD.
It would be heavier, loose the chassis balalnce and the adjustablilty...regardless of how you set it up...you can't hide extra weight.

My opinion...but I don't believe it would be faster round a bend, or in a straight line. Off the mark, over the first 20-30m perhaps...but after that, it would be no faster and the handling would be compromised.

But in the environment that we live in of course we can't drive our cars anywhere near the limit on british roads.

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Why?
There are trackdays...
And smoothly surfaced back roads miles from any other road users (at least up in Scotland there are)

The most common example of someone using trying to use all the power in their car is TLGP. Whether you agree with the concept or not you have to agree that in that situation, with similarly matched power outputs (although in the wet they don't have to be that similar lol) 4WD is king.

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In all honestly...I can't say from experience as I must have been 17 and driving a Nova last time I felt the need to 'race off traffic lights'.
Not for me, I'm afraid...

But I get your point...if it's your thing.

And I am a bit of a fan of TLGPs,

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Ok...
I'm not.
I'll leave it for the young Chavs in their Saxos and Corsas...

in the town I live it is literally a set every 200m on average, so it's pretty much the only way you can give it the beans, so again I'll say, in my opinion 200HP or more wastes a lot of power spinning the wheels so why bother.

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I don't have any traffic lights in my town.

If you drive on lots of sweeping A roads then yeah of course a high powered FWD car will still be great fun, but when it comes to TLGPs you won't do so well. So why not buy a car that's good at both? The only people who it wouldn't really effect is those who never do TLGP, they don't need the traction of a 4WD so much and a good FWD would do them fine. But there are not many of those about.

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Looks like you are speaking to one!
I do most of my driving on A and B roads...I don't commute in my cars, I live 100 miles from a motorway...so I guess I'm someone who doesn't necesarily need the 4WD.
But I own a 4WD 911...

Regardless of my choices of cars...I still see that 200 BHP isn't the limit for FWD, and that with careful setting up, FWD can match the 4WD cars...loose out in some areas, gain in others.

I'll use the focus RS example again though. They're planning to put up to 300bhp in it with FWD. Now yes of course if they develop it properly it'll be a great car, but how much of a better car would it be with 4WD? And if so then why not fit it with it? If audi can do it for a car only £2000 more expensive to buy (although I think most of that is the interior compared to a focus) why can't ford?

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Many reasons...
Ford believe their chassis is good enough to deploy 300 BHP...whilst I have doubt that 300 BHP and suitable torque is easily put to the tarmac, with suitable electronics, I'm sure it will be.
Fords have great chassis...far better than the Audi equivelant.

Would it be 'better' with 4WD?
I don't know...it would be heavier, wear out clutches more...be faster over the first few meters...but better? I don't know.
It's not possible to say.

I guess they have to make a car down to a price (something Ford have always been good at)...so maybe it's too expensive to develop a bespoke 4WD system for it, based on the projected price?

The Audi system was developed years ago, so costs little to implement...and the costs are shared accross 4 makers (All VAG).


Anyway...this is going nowhere...
4WD is good...
But people shouldn't just assume that FWD is worse. That's all I'm aqttempting to suggest.

Ess_Three said:

The statement "4WD is better than FWD" simply cannot be made with any conviction...unless the person making it is a blinkered, ignorant fool.
In my experience...

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Good to see you're staying civilised mate.

At the end of the day, no decent car manufacturer puts that much power through the front wheels on a performance model. The highest A3 you can get FWD is 197. The highest golf 230. No BMW. No Merc. Sports cars are all RWD of course. The Japs go for 4WD when the power gets high. And a great example is the new Type-r! Honda could easily have boosted power to at least the same as the S2000 but they chose not to because there's no need to have more power through the front wheels.

Even if I didn't have a quattro I think I'd a least be able to agree with myself on this matter. But saying that if I look back I haven't stated anywhere on this page how much better my car is than every FWD car ever, as you seem to think I believe.

I'm getting tired of this though mate. I agree with everything you've said, apart from the last. If 4WD wasn't better than FWD, not that I've made that exact claim in so many words, then why on earth would all the performance car manufacturers like Porsche, Bugatti, Lambo, Mitsibushi, Subaru etc etc stick it in their cars instead of FWD? Or even RWD for that matter??

staz1000 said:

Good to see you're staying civilised mate.

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I try...
It's good to talk...as an annoying advert once said.

At the end of the day, no decent car manufacturer puts that much power through the front wheels on a performance model. The highest A3 you can get FWD is 197. The highest golf 230. No BMW. No Merc.

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Ahh...the old 'decent' term...
Others do...240+BHP FWD hatches are getting common.
VXR...some silly Mazda or other...
Leon Cupra?

BMW are RWD by ethos...same with Merc...so not really fair to compare.

Sports cars are all RWD of course.

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Christ on a bike!
Someone has been bluffing me for over 3 years...I could swear my 911 has a propshaft and 4WD!
Or maybe it's not a Sportscar?

The Japs go for 4WD when the power gets high. And a great example is the new Type-r! Honda could easily have boosted power to at least the same as the S2000 but they chose not to because there's no need to have more power through the front wheels.

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You may well be correct...

Even if I didn't have a quattro I think I'd a least be able to agree with myself on this matter. But saying that if I look back I haven't stated anywhere on this page how much better my car is than every FWD car ever, as you seem to think I believe.

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Didn't you make the statement along the lines of "4WD being better than FWD".
That sounds pretty sweeping, to me.

I'm getting tired of this though mate. I agree with everything you've said, apart from the last. If 4WD wasn't better than FWD, not that I've made that exact claim in so many words, then why on earth would all the performance car manufacturers like Porsche, Bugatti, Lambo, Mitsibushi, Subaru etc etc stick it in their cars instead of FWD? Or even RWD for that matter??

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On the whole, I totally agree...with 4WD is easier to use all the available power and torque.

All I'm pointing out is that it isn't always the poor relation to 4WD that people seem to think it is.

Ok not ALL sports cars lol sorry

Ess_Three said:

All I'm pointing out is that it isn't always the poor relation to 4WD that people seem to think it is.

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No you're right, advances is recent years have certainly helped matters. But there has to be a limit somewhere I'm sure you'll agree, we just disagree on where than limit is for the most part, which is fine. :thumbsup:

A4CAB said:

My standard S3 at Santa Pod vs M3 CSL

In my experience with a good start very little can keep up with the S3 from 0-40 with the more powerful cars starting to see a slight advantage from about 70 onwards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QY3jLkCgJO0

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Good start against the csl.Did you win i couldnt tell?