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  1. #41
    L60N
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom View Post
    The Phantom on the rollers



    Heres the plot , they couldn't do a flywheel/clutch reading running in 4WD.



    My car is std , so i'm very happy with the results

    p

    Im reading from this the car put out 250hp-ish & 280lb Torque. So where are you getting that your car is putting out 280 standard?

    Or am I totally missing somthing?

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  3. #42
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    Last edited by mitch78; 3rd March 2009 at 23:33.
    Ex 8L S3 driver

    also A3, 320, Golf, Clio, Astra, Focus, Mondeo, Laguna, Escort, Calibra, 220, others and now back to a Focus...

  4. #43
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    Awesome cannot measure flywheel figures in 4wd and the 8P's wouldn't run in 2wd (the 8L's will)

    As a comparison my 3.2 ran 200bhp ish atw
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  5. #44
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    Thats at the wheels mate, the only true way of testing the power of the car on a dyno, flywheel or clutch power are estimated readings.

    TBH i'v hit a brick wall in converting it to flywheel power , as i don't know if transmission losses have been taken into account, and if they haven't how much are they on a Haldex/Quattro which is mostly 2wd , but still has 4wd running gear!

    p

  6. #45
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    Phantom that pic of yours is my new background. Great looking motor!
    Ex 2006 A3 2.0 TDI owner

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  7. #46
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    If mines running spot on, which I've no reason to doubt looking at previous 3.2 plots at awesome, then I've got roughly 50bhp in losses as an A3 3.2 is booked at 247 fhp. The only difference between my running gear and an S3 is the dsg box.

    What was surprising on the day was the difference in standard and remapped S3's. Peak bhp wasn't anywhere near as big as suggested over a standard car. This doesn't mean the car doesn't perform much better than standard as it's the change in area under the curve that makes the difference. But when you are paying for a map under the impression that you're going to get almost a 50/70bhp increase when you're actually only getting 15/20 it would make a lot of people think twice.
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  8. #47
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    Ah, thanks for clearing that up. I was like

  9. #48
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    So for pub talk reasons what is the flywheel BHP on mine and mitch78 cars?

    p

  10. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom View Post
    So for pub talk reasons what is the flywheel BHP on mine and mitch78 cars?

    p
    Just think off any number you like TBH because that's what it is, a Guess!. Going off yesterdays figures, I'd say you would be looking at somewhere over 280bhp

    But then you've got the debate about the accuracy of the rollers etc. RR days are only any good for comparing different cars on the same day, same rollers, especially when the figures are repeatable between identical cars.
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  11. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitch78 View Post
    I think it's because none of the mapped S3s got more than about 10-15 bhp more than mine or Phantom's. Having said that, they did gain about 25-30 lbft of torque at the lower end of the range.

    I think it's more a matter of mine and Phantom's producing quite a lot more than they should. And I know people will think "well he would say that" but as the mapped cars were showing so little difference compared to ours, (and there was a guy from APR Australia in Awesome) they flashed an APR map onto mine and gave it another run to see what figures it got, and it was pretty much identical to all the other mapped S3s. Just a shame that they had to take it straight back off again.
    Most usefull test of the day before and after dyno,same car,same day,just different map

  12. #51
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    Before I had my S3 MTM remapped, I had dyno's done and my car was running standard at 282bhp, well over the standard figures Audi had given..

  13. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by klauster View Post
    Before I had my S3 MTM remapped, I had dyno's done and my car was running standard at 282bhp, well over the standard figures Audi had given..
    I assume that was based on guessing the drivetrain loss (most peoples guess on audi haldex setup seems to be 30-40 bhp loss) so your dyno plot was around 240bhp at the wheels?
    Did you have a dyno done after the remap?

  14. #53
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    I had before and after plots, I dont know if they were estimated or not, but remember Kim at QSTuning saying that the stock bhp was higher than it should be.

  15. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom View Post
    So for pub talk reasons what is the flywheel BHP on mine and mitch78 cars?

    p
    I wouldn't get to hung up on BHP figures, it's the torque figure that's important and the higher the better.


  16. #55
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    So if the pub talk guess is 280+bhp how does that affect the torque? does that get rounded down too?

    p

  17. #56
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    If you measurements were taken at the wheels then the readings at the flywheel would be higher or vice versa.

    You can use vagcom to take readings from the onboard sensors, this may give you a better idea of the flywheel to wheel losses. When I did some plots on my standard car I had 268 HP and 272 lbft or torque.

    My torque comment was aimed at comparing maps, but my fingers didn't get around to typing it!


  18. #57
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    So the torque on my plot upto 288lbft is right?

    p

  19. #58
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    As I understand it there are many variables when using rolling roads
    Ambient temp
    Stationary temps (my cooper s needed a big fan blowing into the front to keep the intercooler temps down or the ecu would retard the ignition)
    Wheel weight/size/tyre pressures
    Actual drivetrain loss (will vary between the same type of cars)
    Roller calibration

    I suggest that Phantom takes his engine out ,put it on a rig and gets clutch bhp output,then puts it back in the car and dyno it again,difference will be drivetrain loss

  20. #59
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    The data logging done with vag com before my remap showed 275bhp standard. Seems like they are definitely more than the quoted stock 262bhp
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  21. #60
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    I'm not hung up on flywheel figure , it's just i couldn't even TRY to explain it too the wife or friends who are asking what the car ran!

    p

  22. #61
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    So what did the GIAC Hammer map produce???
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  23. #62
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    Last edited by mitch78; 4th March 2009 at 00:11.
    Ex 8L S3 driver

    also A3, 320, Golf, Clio, Astra, Focus, Mondeo, Laguna, Escort, Calibra, 220, others and now back to a Focus...

  24. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by S3-Nick View Post
    The data logging done with vag com before my remap showed 275bhp standard. Seems like they are definitely more than the quoted stock 262bhp
    This rings true with the TTS coming out as having 272bhp as standard....

    Looks like the Audi marketing department have been "playing" again giving the S3 lower figures on paper to what it really has.

    Anyone remember back when the first TT came out it had more than the S3 (8L) even with the same engine then all of a sudden they had the same power after a while....
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  25. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitch78 View Post
    about 258bhp and 300lbft
    If that's the hammer I wonder what the 310bhp map actually produces
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  26. #65
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    Any 2.0T's run their cars?

  27. #66
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    No mate only 4 S3's and 1 3.2 in the 8P's
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  28. #67
    S3IZZO
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    The revo map on my car produced slightly higher BHP than the "Hammer" map but slightly lower Torque figures.

    The real difference is the way the car drives though after a remap, it certainly feels much much more than the indicated 15-20bhp difference.

  29. #68
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    ^^^^^^Hiya mate, spin took me out for a drive ( he offerd me the wheel , but i said no " it's not my car " )

    It did feel faster , and more eager when he floored it, but to be honest it wasn't night and day compared to my car when i floor it.

    Me and spin were talking about trying another rolling road , to make sure these figures are correct , if they are i don't think i'll bother with a remap untill my warrety runs out!

    Thanks

    leon - aka Phantom

  30. #69
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    Some interesting results there. Like has been said even though the figure arent overly different - +20BHP +40ft lb - Its the driveability that makes all the difference.

    And on the subject of RR's, they all seem to produce different figures, so actual figures can be taken with a pich of salt - but comparing mapped to stock is very important - are there any actual prinouts/ploting graphs comparing this?
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  31. #70
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    Last edited by mitch78; 4th March 2009 at 00:11.
    Ex 8L S3 driver

    also A3, 320, Golf, Clio, Astra, Focus, Mondeo, Laguna, Escort, Calibra, 220, others and now back to a Focus...

  32. #71
    S3IZZO
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom View Post
    ^^^^^^Hiya mate, spin took me out for a drive ( he offerd me the wheel , but i said no " it's not my car " )

    It did feel faster , and more eager when he floored it, but to be honest it wasn't night and day compared to my car when i floor it.

    Me and spin were talking about trying another rolling road , to make sure these figures are correct , if they are i don't think i'll bother with a remap untill my warrety runs out!

    Thanks

    leon - aka Phantom
    Hi Leon,

    I did some testing myself on the drive back (turning Revo on and off with the Revo select device) and this IMO confirmed it was worth every penny paid for it.

    To be honest I was expecting a little more from the GIAC map in terms of numbers on the rollers. I would be happy to attend a different RR with you guys to compare

    Good to meet you all

    Jordan

  33. #72
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    Last edited by mitch78; 4th March 2009 at 00:11.
    Ex 8L S3 driver

    also A3, 320, Golf, Clio, Astra, Focus, Mondeo, Laguna, Escort, Calibra, 220, others and now back to a Focus...

  34. #73
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    Are you gonna scan your plot up Lee?

    Do you know the results of the other S3 , the red one? Louay? i had gone by that point.

    Thanks

    p

  35. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom View Post
    ^^^^^^Hiya mate, spin took me out for a drive ( he offerd me the wheel , but i said no " it's not my car " )

    It did feel faster , and more eager when he floored it, but to be honest it wasn't night and day compared to my car when i floor it.
    I think you would need to drive the car yourself to really feel the difference thats why I offered you the wheel, I've ran mine back on standard map over the weekend and there is no doubt The mapped car is far, far quicker, in fact very much night and day when pressing on. Don't get hung up on the figures from saturday - I'm not convinced there even worth discussion because clearly something was very wrong with the figures achieved by all 8P S3's on the day. I enjoyed the day and meeting all the Guys but am disappointed to say I don't think we got value for money on the day, RR days are always a little hit and miss figures wise and I was obviously surprised by the results but the lack of continuity is very suspicious, if you Guys with the standard cars want to go on believing that 2 reputable companies like GIAC and Revo can only offer a 15/20 bhp advantage over standard then thats your perogative but seriously..................
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  36. #75
    N8
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    Agreed. A mapped S3 should feel night and day. A mapped 225bhp TT feels night and day so should a new S3...

  37. #76
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    ^^^^^^^I hear what your saying spin , and thats why i said i would/will like to go on another rolling road with you to get a second opinion on these figures.

    I was all set to get the GIAC remap put on my car after you blew us all away, but it didn't turn out like that , so if the runs were correct ( still willing to go somewhere else with you ) then i have to way up the options.

    Thanks mate

    p

  38. #77
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    Really interested to see what another set of rollers say guys. As I am changing my mind day to day on whether to go GIAC Hammer or go with Revo again when I get my Ed30..


  39. #78
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    Aren't the most accurate rolling roads the ones where they machine goes straight to the hub?

  40. #79
    S3IZZO
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    Phantom,

    Figures aside, i'd urge you to actually drive a car with switchable settings to get a feel for it yourself. (You're welcome for a go in mine)

    Infact who cares about figures - anyone up for a 1/4 Mile session at Santa Pod?
    Last edited by S3IZZO; 10th March 2008 at 12:10.

  41. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by S3IZZO View Post
    Phantom,
    Infact who cares about figures - anyone up for a 1/4 Mile session at Santa Pod?
    Now that's what i'd like to see...
    I'd be expecting a mapped S3 to run mid 13's @ around 103-4mph mark..


 

 
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