DSG (Top Gear mag latest take)

[Amchlolor]

"But I fear the DSG wouldn't impress lil' Lewis (Hamilton). See, even in Sport mode, the Leon won't let you get near the 7,100rpm rev limit. No matter how hard you try to take control of the shifts (the DSG cleverly works out how actively you're managing the gears and when to shift to auto' mode), it still overrides as soon as you get anywhere near the redline.

In fact, it's always just too keen to drop back into automatic mode and make all the shifting decisions for you. Very sensible from an efficiency/engine wear point of view, but it's all a bit nannying"

 

[DIABLO636]

What car you getting next bowfer ?

 

[Amchlolor]

Dunno,100%.
I can only tell you 100% what it WON'T be...
;-)

 

[C_Audiboy]

.....mmmm let me guess????

 

[Caesium]

Always, all day MANUAL

 

[sat1983]

I'd get a bike if i was you bowfer.:icon_thumright:

 

[TDI-line]

Come on, you must have some idea Bowfer?

 

[aiculedtzu]

159

 

[Caesium]

I'd get a bike if i was you bowfer.:icon_thumright:

Nice Avatar, never owned a mega reliable jap car then?

 

[DIABLO636]

Actually i think id have to seriously consider an alfa brera next time around....love the look of it. The front of the audi's look aggressive but the 159's and Brera's are something else - Loads of character.
They look fantastic. Anybody know if reliability has improved on the recent crop of alfa's ?

 

[steve184]

thing is going to the redline is pointless anyway - yeh its abit of a laugh and i know what bowfer is saying that there is no reason why audi/vw couldn't have set the electronics to allow you to sit on the redline if you so desired, just as you can with a manual. However from a practicality point of view i really feel it makes no difference to performance for the simple reason that to get the bets performance you need to shift a fair way before the redline. My TDI 170 is miles quicker when you shift it under 4000 than if you let the box change up at redline as that way your always at max torque. Every engine in the world loses torque abruptly near or at maximum revs which means its pointless.

 

[normski]

Actually i think id have to seriously consider an alfa brera next time around....love the look of it. The front of the audi's look aggressive but the 159's and Brera's are something else - Loads of character.
They look fantastic. Anybody know if reliability has improved on the recent crop of alfa's ?

Looks nice but performs like ***** in the latest issue of Evo...

 

[klauster]

Actually i think id have to seriously consider an alfa brera next time around....love the look of it. The front of the audi's look aggressive but the 159's and Brera's are something else - Loads of character.
They look fantastic. Anybody know if reliability has improved on the recent crop of alfa's ?

As the adverts says your buying it cos its an Alfa....

cos if you based your decision on common sense.... they wouldnt sell any

 

[Amchlolor]

I want a 159,but that remains to be seen.
Grumblings about the MD only giving limited choice now,based on VAG products.
If that's the case,I'll probably opt out rather than be dictated to.
Brera's no good,I need four doors.
I prefer the looks of the GT anyway,even though the Brera's far better built.
I'm not getting into an argument about perceived reliability,because we've been through it all before.
Alfa=unreliable is just as much of an old-wive's tale as Audi=reliable.
They don't appear to be any worse than any other make now.
You get a good one,great.
You don't,it sucks.
I believe their dealers get a hard time,but I never had a problem with the local one when I had my 156,even though it was an import.

 

[Amchlolor]

As the adverts says your buying it cos its an Alfa....

cos if you based your decision on common sense.... they wouldnt sell any

I think that's a wee bit unfair,as it suggests their products are inferior and can only trade on name.
In fact,all of their cars are perfectly competitive in their respective fields.
The 147 is a perfectly viable alternative to the Golf / Focus.
The 159 is a perfectly viable alternative to the A4 / 3 series.
The Brera is a perfectly viable alternative to the TT

Etc.etc.

It's just convincing people that's the problem !
Alfa's new marketing man (Bruno someone,ex BMW) is seeking to move the brand on a bit,with word of more Audi/BMW-like showrooms etc.
He also wants to stop the discounting you can get,so the likes of Arnold Clark (where my Alfa salesman mate works) are getting grief and may not get Alfas any more.

 

[klauster]

I think that's a wee bit unfair,as it suggests their products are inferior and can only trade on name.
In fact,all of their cars are perfectly competitive in their respective fields.
The 147 is a perfectly viable alternative to the Golf / Focus.
The 159 is a perfectly viable alternative to the A4 / 3 series.
The Brera is a perfectly viable alternative to the TT

Etc.etc.

It's just convincing people that's the problem !
Alfa's new marketing man (Bruno someone,ex BMW) is seeking to move the brand on a bit,with word of more Audi/BMW-like showrooms etc.
He also wants to stop the discounting you can get,so the likes of Arnold Clark (where my Alfa salesman mate works) are getting grief and may not get Alfas any more.

im sorry but my opinions are based on 4 friends Alfa ownership plus the fact we have had Alfas as company cars before.

Gear boxes dropping out at 17k, clutch problems, alarm problems, brand new cars arriving with paintwork damage and stone chips, problems with brakes and electrics, really bad wind noise from the drivers door (which I was told - all 159's have LOL) All this on cars less then 2 years old! To be fair alot of the issues where on the Alfa 156, but the paintwork,windscreen and wind noise problems were on a new 159.

If the problems weren't bad enough they are backed up by a depleated Alfa dealership network of poor, amazingly unprofessional staff.

I do love the style and design of Alfa's but Im afraid the build quality is not as good as other car brands... and the dealerships seem to be rubbish around where I am. I am not saying Audi/VW/Volvo (cars I have had) had no problems at all, just not as many, infact nowhere near as many problems.

 

[Amchlolor]

im sorry but my opinions are based on 4 friends Alfa ownership plus the fact we have had Alfas as company cars before.

Gear boxes dropping out at 17k, clutch problems, alarm problems, brand new cars arriving with paintwork damage and stone chips, problems with brakes and electrics, really bad wind noise from the drivers door (which I was told - all 159's have LOL) All this on cars less then 2 years old! To be fair alot of the issues where on the Alfa 156, but the paintwork,windscreen and wind noise problems were on a new 159.

If the problems weren't bad enough they are backed up by a depleated Alfa dealership network of poor, amazingly unprofessional staff.

I do love the style and design of Alfa's but Im afraid the build quality is not as good as other car brands... and the dealerships seem to be rubbish around where I am. I am not saying Audi/VW/Volvo (cars I have had) had no problems at all, just not as many, infact nowhere near as many problems.

Sorry,but given the 2.5 years of hassle I've had,I'll take my chances with a 159 !
My 156 was certainly a damned sight less hassle than my supposedly better built A3.
The added trouble is,even when my A3 isn't acting up,it's a boring car.
No driving enjoyment at all.
I don't even get any joy looking at it's reflection as I drive past a shop.
Even if a 159 turned out to be as much of a pain in the *** as my A3,which I would find hard to believe,I think I'll get more enjoyment from other aspects of ownership,such as the looks and the better driver envolvement.

If you look at owner reports for the 159 on What car,they're pretty positive.
The odd glum report,but that goes for the A3 too.

 

[klauster]

Sorry,but given the 2.5 years of hassle I've had,I'll take my chances with a 159 !
My 156 was certainly a damned sight less hassle than my supposedly better built A3.
The added trouble is,even when my A3 isn't acting up,it's a boring car.
No driving enjoyment at all.
I don't even get any joy looking at it's reflection as I drive past a shop.
Even if a 159 turned out to be as much of a pain in the *** as my A3,which I would find hard to believe,I think I'll get more enjoyment from other aspects of ownership,such as the looks and the better driver envolvement.

If you look at owner reports for the 159 on What car,they're pretty positive.
The odd glum report,but that goes for the A3 too.

hmmm so Ive either been very lucky with my car ownership from VW and Audi or very very unlucky with Alfa's?

If the dealerships are good near you then great, Im not saying dont buy one, just saying I wouldnt, and some of that reason is on the aftersales in my neighbourhood.

I am not saying the A3 is a better car either, when it comes down to looks and feel of the car that is purely down to personal choice/differences etc...

Good luck with the 159 Bowfer, its a lovely looking motor

 

[Amchlolor]

I was softening towards a VAG car (Passat maybe) with the 170bhp tdi engine,but have you seen the size of the thread about DPF problems ??
Put me clean (sic) off that !
If Volvo were to come out with a 4 door C30,I'd entertain that.
I don't want a 1-series.
I can't stretch the budget to anything more than a basic 3-series.
The Honda Accord has a cracking diesel engine,but it's dull.
What else is there with 4 doors,decent looks and a diesel engine for around £23K ????

 

[cyanescent]

Only had my A3 (53 reg 2.0L TDI Sport) for a month or so, but I do like it. Having said that, I drove an Alpha 159 JTD (the 1.9L) last year on holiday, and the driver involvement and layout of the cabin was really good. The 1.9L was a tad underpowered for the car though. I went for the Audi in the end as I preferred the image. Sure it's a tad staid, but I think that with most of these cars it really comes down to the image that you want. Half of the cars on the market are all identical under the skin anyway..

Mind you, my previous car was a 1.1L Citroen AX, so most cars probably seemed amazing to me after that

 

[Amchlolor]

The 1.9L was a tad underpowered for the car though.

I didn't find that when I test drove the 159.
The 1.9jtd puts out 150bhp,with the car weighing 1535 kgs.
My sportback puts out 140bhp and weights 1395 kgs.
Pretty comparible bhp/kg.
Their claimed performance figures are pretty similar too.
Out and out performance isn't my bag.
I could always get it chipped (up to 180bhp for £499).
My Alfa selling mate claims you can buy a power-up kit from the factory,but there's no mention of that on the website.
I'll have to go see him at his work.

 

[cyanescent]

I dunno.. I found it was a bit underpowered, but then I was driving it around the Sud Tirol in Italy.. Really steep winding mountain roads.. and it definitely hated moving off from a standstill on those.. was quite tricky at times.. I really needed to rev the engine hard to move off without stalling on some of those roads.. Didn't have the same problem in my cousin's A3.. Maybe it was the Hill Hold function.. All that said, I absolutely loved the Alpha on the motorway.. amazing cruiser..

 

[Matt]

DSG is the only Automatic I've driven so I cant really make a comparison to other auto's. Was quite relaxing in the short space of time I had it for driving normally. But when you put your foot down it didn't 'feel' like it went aswell as a manual. I only had a drive of it for about 45 mins so not long enough really to make a proper judgement but a manual is so much better for me as I can have it in the gear I want it in. If I want to waft along using the torque I can, if I want to scream its head off I can. Plus auto gearchanges sound naff whether its a diesel or a petrol engine.

 

[steve184]

i know its an older model now but everytime i see a 156 on the road i just look and thing what a rubbish looking car - not nec cos of the shape but because the paint quality on these is awful - it looks matt and dull and orange peely as hell - horrible - i just think what a waste of money!

If you havent driven other autos then you can't comment cos 'autos' are two completely different kettles of fish as far as i am concerned and as far as i know (as i have driven normal autos, DSG's and manuals) you can't even compare a dsg to a normal 'hydraulic' auto they are just two completely different things. How you can say a DSG doesn't feel the same as a manual in terms of performance i dont know - because they are both connected directly between the wheels and engine via cogs!

Auto gear changes sound naff?. Never knew gear changes had sounds! Apart from the odd 'if you can't find em, grind em'

 

[Amchlolor]

i know its an older model now but everytime i see a 156 on the road i just look and thing what a rubbish looking car - not nec cos of the shape but because the paint quality on these is awful - it looks matt and dull and orange peely as hell - horrible - i just think what a waste of money!

Good grief,their paint is crap now too....
Red is about the worst colour you can get for ageing,yet my mate's 1999 156 paint looks lovely.
Just the odd application of Meguire's crystal paint cleaner and Collinite wax.
He's only had the car 3 years as well,so it's not as if it's had particular car all it's life.
*Edit* - see photo below,taken last summer.
9 year old car remember.
Not bad for "crap paint".
No rust on it,unlike my other mates 2000 Merc SLK,which is going for a full respray courtesy of Merc.

 

[Matt]

If you havent driven other autos then you can't comment cos 'autos' are two completely different kettles of fish as far as i am concerned and as far as i know (as i have driven normal autos, DSG's and manuals) you can't even compare a dsg to a normal 'hydraulic' auto they are just two completely different things. How you can say a DSG doesn't feel the same as a manual in terms of performance i dont know - because they are both connected directly between the wheels and engine via cogs!

Auto gear changes sound naff?. Never knew gear changes had sounds! Apart from the odd 'if you can't find em, grind em'

I can say it cos thats how it 'FELT' to me. I dont know why, it just did. I'm not saying it was or wasn't.

As for your 2nd comment, no need for the cockyness. I think you know what I mean, your just trying to be pedantic as I haven't worded it aswell as I could of done (can only assume you own a DSG and have taken it to heart for some reason when my post wasn't a dig at anyone!) Its not against the forum rules to have an opinion albeit one formed on a short test drive which I did mention in my 1st post.

 

[marriedblonde]

I actually spotted my first 159 the other day and it did look lovely.

As a company car I would certainly be tempted, not a fan of the brera tho' looks good from some angles but awful (IMO) from others.

I think we can all name someone who has had a dodgy alfa, but if you read the threads on here there is also plenty of people who have dodgy Audi's.

There are only a couple of cars that I have owned that didn't require several trips to the dealers for warrenty work. And neither of them are VAG... My MCS covered 23K miles in 6 months and only needed one service, my coupes covered 10K miles in 3 months and is spot on.

Claires B-Class seems to be ticking along nicely and is coming up to a year old so fingers crossed that is a good un! Although she doesn't do a great deal of miles (around 7K I think) in it so not really a fair comparison.

Quality of paint is an interesting one, if you look at the paint on an audi/vw you will see a orange peel effect...

J.

 

[h5djr]

Grumblings about the MD only giving limited choice now,based on VAG products.
If that's the case,I'll probably opt out rather than be dictated to.

Perhaps you would be better off to opt out, then if you make another mistake with your choice of car, you will not have to wait 3 years before you can change it.

 

[normski]

How you can say a DSG doesn't feel the same as a manual in terms of performance i dont know - because they are both connected directly between the wheels and engine via cogs!

How is there anyway on this planet that driving a DSG can feel like a manual gearbox? There is no where near the same amount of control...and therefore not the same performance

 

[Amchlolor]

Perhaps you would be better off to opt out, then if you make another mistake with your choice of car, you will not have to wait 3 years before you can change it.

I doubt I'd make such a big mistake again.
Wouldn't touch a playstation,barstool F1 gearbox again if you paid me.
Opting out interests me,but I don't know if I can be bothered.
Insurance,roadtax....bleeeurgh...
I like all that being someone else's problem.

 

[batwad]

Gosh yes, owning a car is such a chore. I employ a butler to sign a couple of forms for me once a year just to make it bearable.

 

[h5djr]

How is there anyway on this planet that driving a DSG can feel like a manual gearbox? There is no where near the same amount of control...and therefore not the same performance

If you use the DSG in 'tip-tronic' mode as I do almost all the time, the you have a very similar experience to a maunal gearbox, but without the need to keep pressing the clutch pedal. Yes I know the DSG will change up automatically at max revs for each gear and down and minium revs but other than that you can change gear as and when you like, as you would with a manual box. If anything the 'perforance' can be slightly better because, when you want to accelerate quickly, there is no loss of power between changes. I personally like the way the DSG changes up at max revs. It means I can accelerate away quickly, and because the rev band on a diesel is small, the change to second and indeed to third come around so quickly it nice when the box handles these and the I decide after that. Also whenever I stop it automatically selects first for me.

I know a lot of people say they much prefer a manual, but really you are getting a manual clutch rather than the auto clutch of the DSG. The gears are still engaged in the same way, unlike any 'ordinary' auto with it's torque converter or even Audi's own 'multi-tronic' with it's moving metal belt drive.

I shall be off to Austria on Sunday and will be doing a lot of driving whilst I am there on twisty and steep mountain roads and the DSG is much better on this type of road. Just a quick flick of a paddle or level to change up and down - no silly clutch to have to keep pressing.

But as I always say - each to his own. At least Audi give us the choice!

 

[Caesium]

Manual all the way for me boys, might need the occasional clutch but at least you have total control over the car, I had an auto in my Supra and that was a joke, it did what it liked and i felt detached from the car. If you want a driving experience then go manual, if you just want to get about then auto is the way.

 

[Amchlolor]

If you use the DSG in 'tip-tronic' mode as I do almost all the time, the you have a very similar experience to a maunal gearbox, but without the need to keep pressing the clutch pedal. Yes I know the DSG will change up automatically at max revs for each gear and down and minimum revs but other than that you can change gear as and when you like, as you would with a manual box. If anything the 'perforance' can be slightly better because, when you want to accelerate quickly, there is no loss of power between changes.

As ever,you don't mention the..........................................delay when pulling away.

 

[sjahS3]

Have to agree with A4Quattro..

Had a B7 S4 for a weekend a while back which admittedly didn't have the DSG but the tiptronic box. Enjoyed the clutchless changes which I'm sure were miles faster than I could ever do it manually but just lacked the ultimate driver involvement and feeling of control that comes with a manual box. So, even though I was being offered it at a discounted price I didn't go for it in the end..

-Sal-

 

[Amchlolor]

Didn't Audi reckon,at one point,that DSG would be the 'gearbox of choice' on the majority of cars sold ?
I'm guessing that's pretty wide of the mark.
I'm guessing whomever predicted that will be skulking back to his flat,to watch his betamax video and listen to his minidisc stereo.

 

[batwad]

***yawn*** Not this one again

 

[Amchlolor]

***yawn*** Not this one again

Hey,I can could say the same about your motor.
Yawn,not another silver A3...

;-)

If you're not happy,g'way back to your own forum.

 

[h5djr]

As ever,you don't mention the..........................................delay when pulling away.

Second DSG - personally no 'delay' on either one. Must be the way I drive!

When I'm at the Audi Neckarsulm plant next week I will try and find out what percentage of A3s are sold worldwide with the DSG gearbox. Could be interesting.

***yawn*** Not this one again

I agree with Bowfer, the thread he started has DSG in the title, so if your not interested - don't bother to read it!
Personally I'm not really interested in the S3, so I don't bother to read threads with S3 in the title.

 

[Gti Jazz Blue]

You most be very lucky to get no delay, there is a definate pause once you take your foot off of the brake. I've learnt to drive round it and it is only very ocasionally these days that I get caught out going for a gap.

Paul