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  1. #41
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    Having been QUALIFIED in motor vehicle repair I would say my "speculation" is educated and therefore not classed as speculation.

    Its common sense that the very life blood of the engine, the liquid that cools the parts, lubricates the parts, traps the piston blow past combustion products in suspension, transports the metal fragments to the filter and keeps the parts inside clean would operate better when new.

    Would you keep the oil in your fryer at home for 6 months? no because it degrades with temperature and particulates in suspension. It will still fry your chips but it will taste disgusting.
    Because something just works it doesn't mean its the most perfect solution, changing the oil in your engine more regularly than you should will bring more benefits than leaving it in longer, it doesn't take an educated man to work that out. Just one with common sense and an understanding of the purpose of engine oil.
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  3. #42
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    I doubt you will find many people that will be put off buying a car thats had long life servicing instead of the normal one. Average Joe wont care as long as its been serviced in accordance with the relevant service schedule.

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    Personally I am often surprised at how much people focus on the engine these days. In my experience engines tend to be very reliable and seldom actually go wrong.

    More frequent and more expensive are the failures on the other 5000 components in the car. I can't recall ever having had an engine problem with the last 5 cars I've owned, but electrics, suspension components, steering, interior niggles, ceasing brake calipers - you name it.
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  5. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by A4Quattro
    Having been QUALIFIED in motor vehicle repair I would say my "speculation" is educated and therefore not classed as speculation.

    Its common sense that the very life blood of the engine, the liquid that cools the parts, lubricates the parts, traps the piston blow past combustion products in suspension, transports the metal fragments to the filter and keeps the parts inside clean would operate better when new.

    Would you keep the oil in your fryer at home for 6 months? no because it degrades with temperature and particulates in suspension. It will still fry your chips but it will taste disgusting.
    Because something just works it doesn't mean its the most perfect solution, changing the oil in your engine more regularly than you should will bring more benefits than leaving it in longer, it doesn't take an educated man to work that out. Just one with common sense and an understanding of the purpose of engine oil.
    Sorry,but your idea of common sense does not constitute proof.
    Your 'chip fat' argument is an extreme scenario,which does not tally with the engine oil/AVS argument.
    To be more accurate,one would have to know the recommended life of the cooking oil.
    If the manufacturers themselves say it will last 6 months without any ill-effects,then changing it more regularly is as arguably pointless as changing AVS oil more regularly.

    Until I see two physical proof (an article in a magazine will do) that changing AVS oil at 6000 miles is better for the engine than 12000 miles,I will say it is baseless speculation.

    Because it is.
    It's unproven,so its speculation.
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  6. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by A4Quattro
    Having been QUALIFIED in motor vehicle repair I would say my "speculation" is educated and therefore not classed as speculation
    .

    Had to chip in here. I've worked as an design engineer for a premium brand OEM and sorry to shatter your illusions, but I've been in meetings with the maintenance/service department and the service interval was not set on the oil condition, but the air filter life. And basically the service interval can vary between countries based purely on this (dust, avg. temperature). Oil was never even mentioned.
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  7. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by A4Quattro
    What sort of Journeys do you do then, full throttle all the way?
    I only drive it a couple of times a week then it gets some stick, my wife drives it the rest of the time to work which is heavy traffic and only about 6 miles away. Short stop/start journeys are where the oil will break down quicker as it never gets up to proper operating temperature. Hence AVS works out that my oil will be in a worse state than a car that has done lots of motorway journeys and come up to temp nicely over maybe 18k miles.
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  8. #47
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    i am not doubting that service intervals are set due to many variables, what I am stating is that if you change the oil before it is due then your engine would show less wear than one that was changed at the interval.

    As for the comparision I drew from cooking oil, if you used cooking oil for 6 months then your food must taste foul.


    I'm sure that no magazine or any other publication for that matter would bother to change oil earlier in an engine over its lifetime then compare it to one that had its regular intervals.
    Oil performs better when new, its simple physics. Oil degrades with time, thats why its packaged in a sealed container, and the longer its in your engine the less protection it gives over time.

    Its the same with just about EVERY product ever produced, the longer you use it the more worn/less effective it becomes.

    If you have ever drained the oil out of a car then you will see that its viscosity has changed from when it was first put in.
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  9. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw66
    .

    Had to chip in here. I've worked as an design engineer for a premium brand OEM and sorry to shatter your illusions, but I've been in meetings with the maintenance/service department and the service interval was not set on the oil condition, but the air filter life. And basically the service interval can vary between countries based purely on this (dust, avg. temperature). Oil was never even mentioned.
    I do not get the relevance of your quote or post.
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  10. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by A4Quattro
    I do not get the relevance of your quote or post.
    Well you claim that being QUALIFIED mechanic makes your opinion worth more and not purely speculation. And I'm suggesting you don't have all the facts and it IS speculation. Your concept of automotive engineering does not extend to actually understand what drives the design process.

    Sure it might show some reduction in wear, but so small that it does not affect the life of the engine past the point where the rest of the car has already fallen to bits.
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  11. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by A4Quattro
    Oil performs better when new, its simple physics. Oil degrades with time, thats why its packaged in a sealed container, and the longer its in your engine the less protection it gives over time.

    Yes,but the point being argued here is whether the slightly increased mileage of AVS is enough to make a difference.
    I say no.
    You say yes.
    Audi think AVS is fine,so the burden of proof to say it isn't lies with you.
    You have no proof though,other than assumption and,to be frank,pretty old-school thinking based on old-school oil and car technology.
    It's entirely feasible that,one day,oil and car technology could become so good that engines are effectively 'sealed' and the stuff will never need changing.
    That'll give you palpitations !
    ;-)
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    It's entirely feasible that,one day,oil and car technology could become so good that engines are effectively 'sealed' and the stuff will never need changing
    That's exactly what has happened with many other friction-prone car parts. I am old enough to remember when a 3000 (sic) mile service involved greasing suspension joints, universal couplings etc. And aren't some gearboxes now sealed for life? Of course, the combustion process and its byproducts make the engine a special case but there's no doubt the way things are heading on service intervals in general.
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  13. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowfer
    That'll give you palpitations !
    ;-)
    Palpitations? Coronary more like!

    Maybe I am too old-school.
    Chris

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  14. #53
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    Hey,it's a moot point where my car's concerned anyway.
    It burns it so quickly that it must get a complete oil change every 6000 miles anyway,whether I bleeding like it or not !
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  15. #54
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    err.. as much as i'd rather not admit to it, mines much the same also. its incredible how much oil it goes through.
    Chris

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    I looked into this about a year ago when the oil in my A3 was 12 months/10K miles old, yet the AVS was still reading 10 months/8k miles til the next service. I've always been taught to change oil every 10k miles or yearly, whichever is sooner, and found Audi's claim of 2 year intervals dubious. See http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/faq.htm?id=13 which is quite clear about the pitfalls of AVS. I also phoned several garages, and the first question nearly all asked me was "is it turbo?". I concluded that I could probably get away with the 2 yearly oil change on mine (2.0 FSI), but that turbo engines should be changed yearly given the extreme temperatures that the oil reaches. I changed mine anyway for peace of mind. I do agree though that oil colour isn't a reliable indicator as two weeks after the change it was as black as ever. As an aside, I've concluded that the whole AVS system is a con. The only variable part of the service is the oil - everything else is fixed - 20k, 40k, 50k, etc... just look at your service book. So you simply have to hope that when your AVS display says it's time for a service that it's at one of these intervals - which defeats the object of the system. It should be more correclty called variable oil indicator rather than variable service indicator.

  17. #56
    RD350YPVS - Loves 2 stroke oil

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    I do agree though that oil colour isn't a reliable indicator as two weeks after the change it was as black as ever
    I changed my oil 2 months and 1300 miles ago and its still as clean as when i put it in, i'm not saying oil colour is a reliable indicator just saying it can stay cleaner for longer

  18. #57
    I've always been taught to change oil every 10k miles or yearly, whichever is sooner, and found Audi's claim of 2 year intervals dubious.
    I was always taught that there were 12p in the shilling and 20 shillings in the pound, but the world moves on. With the original Beetle the oil needed to be changed every 3,000 miles. My first cars required oil changes at 6,000 miles. My first Golf GTi needed it's spark plugs changed every 5,000 miles but now spark plugs quite happily last 40k.

    Manufacturers talk to suppliers and ask them to develop products to better suit the market and with research and development they come up with all sorts of improvements. It's called progress.

    VW/Audi worked with Castrol for a long time to come up with an oil that would last a lot longer than the normal oil and Castrol came up with a fully synthetic 'longlife' oil that would do just that. Other suppliers have also now come up with synthetic oil that meet VW oil specifications.

    As far as I'm concerned this is progress and if Audi are happy with the oil being changed at 15-20k or 2 years then so am I.
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    Simple questions .......

    Why is that all you Turbo worryers are picking 10k as a suitable benchmark to change oil at??

    Not so many years ago 5-6K was the norm to best proteect the high performance turbo engine.......... why for maximum protection are you not changing at 5k?? Why is 10k such a magical figure?
    Perhaps you are driving so hard and degrading the oil sooooo much that 10k is faaaaaaaaar tooooooo lonnnnnnnng.

    As has been said some of you changing oil at a fixed 10k may have needed an oil change far earlier on the avs schedule!!!

  20. #59
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    I used to change my oil (Valvoline Synpower) in my Supra every 6000 miles, and it looked just like the new stuff when I drained it out. But the engine was near silent running and showed barely any signs of wear on the cams, and no turbo smoke whatsoever despite having done 90,000 miles.
    Chris

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  21. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by coupe-se
    Simple questions .......

    Why is that all you Turbo worryers are picking 10k as a suitable benchmark to change oil at??

    Not so many years ago 5-6K was the norm to best proteect the high performance turbo engine.......... why for maximum protection are you not changing at 5k?? Why is 10k such a magical figure?
    i do change mine every 5-6k

    i know oil colour is no inducation of its condition, but on my A3 it does seem to go black fairly fast,
    whereas on my mini, which only ever gets HAMMERED right up to 8k all the time, being a weekend/trackday car, after 3k the oil is exactly the same colour as when it went in....
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  22. #61
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    According to many an article in bike mags,if you're going to change oil regularly then you're as well using cheaper oil.
    They do regular articles about oil,given that bikes are tuned to the hilt and rev to 16000rpm+ these days.
    Using fancy oil AND changing regularly is total (sic) overkill,according to the articles.
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    Just to stick in my 2p worth.

    I changed our A4 to fixed servicing after the first AVS service for one simple reason. Our usage characteristics (8-9k a year and plenty of shortish journeys) don't fit in with those recommended for AVS. There's a document on the Audi or VW website that gives recommendations as to when you should use AVS and it seemed reasonable so I went with it. I don't think the dealer did the job properly though as the service warning is saying service after 9k rather than 10k.

    I don't think comparing car usage to van usage is reasonable as delivery vans tend to be on the road 8-10 hours a day and only have 1 cold start in that timeframe.

    Finally, anyone changing their oil as frequently as every 6k may actually be doing their engine more harm than good. There have been cases of engines not bedding in properly due to over enthusiastic oil changes which results in higher oil consumption and poorer performance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bowfer
    It's entirely feasible that,one day,oil and car technology could become so good that engines are effectively 'sealed' and the stuff will never need changing.
    That'll give you palpitations !
    ;-)
    Didn't Cadillac produce an engine that could go 100k between changes?

    I did read a few years back about changing oil filtration so that 10% went through and extremely fine filter while the remainder was filtered as normal. This allowed the oil to be used for MUCH longer although you still get the issues associated with short journeys and time degradation.

    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw66
    Had to chip in here. I've worked as an design engineer for a premium brand OEM and sorry to shatter your illusions, but I've been in meetings with the maintenance/service department and the service interval was not set on the oil condition, but the air filter life. And basically the service interval can vary between countries based purely on this (dust, avg. temperature). Oil was never even mentioned.
    Maybe with some brands but VAG made a big deal out of their oil monitoring sensors so I doubt they'd design them and then not used the data they provide.

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    I subscribe to the school of thought that the fewer times it has to go into the garage the better, I only do low mileage and the car will be sold after say 5 years to a member of the public who will probably be attracted by AVS in order to keep costs down.

    I got mine to 'last' the full 2 years by whch time it had done about 8500 miles.

    Mind you, the amount of oil some people have to top up (and the fact mine was leaking oil!) means there is an awful lot of clean oil going in between services for some people anyway! LOL
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