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  1. #41
    Ed
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    I've been through 2 of these cameras,one with a copper standing pointing a gun at me, one in a van.

    The 1st one i was going 36+ in a 30 and had just got my car so thought it was taking ages for my NIP to come through, but it never did!
    2nd was on the A3 doing about 60 in a 50 and never got a NIP for that.

    I guess I was lucky but it did make me slow down.

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  3. #42
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    I'm not sure it's worth making a distinction between driving at 30mph in a 30mph limit and not concentrating vs driving at 40mph in a 30mph limit whilst fully concentrating.

    Both are examples of poor driving, and one doesn't justify the other. You could argue that speed enforcement is trying to minimise the chances of somebody doing 40mph and not concentrating!

    I'm a realist, and yes, I do speed from time to time. But, my attitude to it IS changing as a result of the way it's being enforced these days, and that's a good thing IMO.

    I'd like to see more actual traffic cars too though, to catch people like the idiot reading some notes on his steering wheel this morning, whilst doing 70mph in the middle lane of the A1M...
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  4. #43
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    A few years back I was driving behind a Ford Focus in a country lane in a 30 zone, the road was dry and the visibility was good, the Focus was on or around the speed limit, but cars often exceed the limit down this road sighting that its a country road with no obvious reason for a 30 limit. However on that day for some reason, a driver on the other side of the road decided to overtake a vehicle he was following straight into the path of the Ford Focus. The Focus driver had at best less than a second to react before the head on impact. I still cant express my surprise at the situation, and the actions of the other overtaking vehicle.

    I was first on the scene, the overtaking car had four unrestrained children in the back and the front passengers where not wearing seat belts. The images shocked me, and at the time I was not a parent, now I am and they make me sick thinking about them. All survived, but it took six ambulances to deal with carnage.

    My point is the Focus driver was going to have that accident regardless if he was on the phone, doing 30, doing 40 etc. it was outside his control. The fact that he was doing 30 not 40 or more prob saved the lives of the children in the other car. He could have been the best driver in the world, but the laws of physics and the stupidity of the other driver cancelled that out on that day.

    Our cars will protect us in a 30mph impact, and pedestrians that are hit will survive, at 40 things start to get a bit more vague. How much to you value your life and the lives of others will determine your position on speeding.

    Chris.
    Last edited by HeliChris; 22nd January 2007 at 17:41.

  5. #44
    I could not agree more - More traffic cops and less cameras. Cameras can only pick up someone who is exceeding the speed limit. Traffic cops can pick up all sorts of things from dangerous driving to missing lights to using a hand-held mobile phone whilst they are driving as well as drivers under the influence of either drink or drugs.
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  6. #45
    My point is the Focus driver was going to have that accident regardless if he was on the phone, doing 30, doing 40 etc. it was outside his control. The fact that he was doing 30 not 40 or more prob saved the lives of the children in the other car. He could have been the best driver in the world, but the laws of physics and the stupidity of the other driver cancelled that out on that day.

    Our cars will protect us in a 30mph impact, and pedestrians that are hit will survive, at 40 things start to get a bit more vague. How much to you value your life and the lives of others will determine your position on speeding.
    Based on that logic 30 is 'safer' than 40. So 20 is 'safer' than 30 and 10 is 'safer' than 20 and 5 is 'safer' than 10. On that basis the speed limit on all roads should be say 30 just in case another road user decides to do something stupid and put kids in a car with or without seat belts! Perhaps while were at it would should restrict all lorries to 5mph on all roads because it takes then much longer to stop. Perhaps we should ban kids from travelling in cars just to be on the safe side.
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  7. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by h5djr
    Based on that logic 30 is 'safer' than 40. So 20 is 'safer' than 30 and 10 is 'safer' than 20 and 5 is 'safer' than 10. On that basis the speed limit on all roads should be say 30 just in case another road user decides to do something stupid and put kids in a car with or without seat belts! Perhaps while were at it would should restrict all lorries to 5mph on all roads because it takes then much longer to stop. Perhaps we should ban kids from travelling in cars just to be on the safe side.
    And thats the point of a speed limits, to set the acceptable safe speed taking into account all risks and benefits.

    I hate the way speed limits are enforced in this country as much as the next man, but it's the law, I can't change it, so I have to live with it. If I break the limit, and I get caught then I will accept my punishment with good grace.

    Chris.

  8. #47
    And thats the point of a speed limits, to set the acceptable safe speed taking into account all risks and benefits.

    I hate the way speed limits are enforced in this country as much as the next man, but it's the law, I can't change it, so I have to live with it. If I break the limit, and I get caught then I will accept my punishment with good grace.
    I agree, except that I think that more and more of the limits are being set to raise revenue than to set an acceptable safe speed.

    I also agree that if I'm caught exceeding these silly limits, then I will have to accept my punishment with good grace.

    It just a shame that this countries whole attitude towards road safety seems to be based on speed limits and cameras and not much else.
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  9. #48
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    I agree the limits on your average town road which is 30,40 etc is fine and should be enforced(although not with cameras as they are clear money makign schemes that have no real regard for the safety of other road users or pedestrians.)

    I do however, get seriously pissed off at the motorway limits that switch from 70 to 60 to 50 to 70 to 50 within the space of about a mile. Why???? If people are joining the motorway from a slip road they should be perfectly capable of speeding up to about 60mph in the process.

    Which brings me to my next rant, why do people seem to be incapable of doing this!!!?? Usually some old person in their 15 yr old corsa/micra. Joining a motorway at 30mph is not a very good idea, and i dont want to be forced to do it either.

    I'm particularly bitter as i got done doing 70 in a 50mph section of motorway and got 4 points and a £250 fine, bahhh!


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  10. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by h5djr
    I agree, except that I think that more and more of the limits are being set to raise revenue than to set an acceptable safe speed.

    I also agree that if I'm caught exceeding these silly limits, then I will have to accept my punishment with good grace.

    It just a shame that this countries whole attitude towards road safety seems to be based on speed limits and cameras and not much else.
    Dave I think we are on the same wave length

    Chris.

  11. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by h5djr
    In Germany on the autobahns, because there is no overall speed limit and limits are only imposed where there are necessary, most of the traffic tends to stick to those limits because they know they are there for a reason. There are allowed to drive at a speed they consider safe where there is no reason not to.
    Indeed, and you very rarely see Police at all unless theres an accident, another good idea is that certain stretchs that are fine in the dry and lethal in the wet have a 80km/h limit when theres adverse weather conditions, a common sense idea that could be implemented in the UK.
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  12. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tooks
    bowfer, why would you do that, accellerate when cars try to go past? Isn't it better just to let them get on with it? (I speak as an ocassional motorcyclist myself here!) I'm not looking for an argument, just interested in the psychology.
    If it's a 30mph zone,no I won't let them 'get on with it'.
    Letting them 'get on with it' could mean them running a kid over further down the street.
    If I can do my bit to teach them a fecking lesson,I will.
    Urban speeders bug the hell out of me.
    They are the worst type of speeder,full stop.

    Whether anyone agrees with it or not,I couldn't care less,but I often go out of my way to drive the length of my village at 30mph,thereby slowing down the ratrunners that use it every night in their attempt to get home 3 minutes earlier.

    If it annoys them,great.
    If it puts them off using the ratrun again,even better.

    If I was deliberately driving under the speed limit to annoy people,that would be different,IMO.

    I'm not though,I just toddle along at bang on 30mph,fully aware of the fact that the half-dozen ratrunners behind me would rather be doing 45mph+.

    Call it 'being community minded'.
    I've already lodged my interest in setting up one of those community intiatives wherein local residents are given speed guns,with culprits being sent warning letters from the police.

    I make no apologies for taking as much action as I can against people who speed in urban 30mph zones.

    I'm not anti-speed at all,I'm anti-inappropriate speed.
    Last edited by Amchlolor; 23rd January 2007 at 09:42.
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    Bit off-topic but it might save somebody 3 points, if you are driving a commercial vehicle of less than 7.5 tonnes, the limits are:
    Single carriageways 50
    Dual carriageways 60
    otherwise as for cars
    What is not so well known is that these limits apply to 'commercial derived' vehicles eg Navara/Hilux/Mitsubish pickups even if you have a king cab with a top on the load area - as I know to my cost - doing bang on 70 on a dual carriageway & nicked!
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  14. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by rowansbank
    Bit off-topic but it might save somebody 3 points, if you are driving a commercial vehicle of less than 7.5 tonnes, the limits are:
    Single carriageways 50
    Dual carriageways 60
    otherwise as for cars
    What is not so well known is that these limits apply to 'commercial derived' vehicles eg Navara/Hilux/Mitsubish pickups even if you have a king cab with a top on the load area - as I know to my cost - doing bang on 70 on a dual carriageway & nicked!
    I got nicked for doing 71mph in a hired transit van about 16 years ago too.
    I honestly didn't know I should have been doing 60mph.
    I felt the hire company,who we gave a lot of business too,should have done more to tell me so I had a right go at them.
    I don't suppose I was the only catalyst for change but soon after they started putting stickers on the dashboards telling drivers the limits for vans.
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  15. #54
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    Oh,I notice some road safety organisation (possibly ROSPA) has suggested that the motorway speed limits should be raised to 78mph asap,but penalties should be increased for anyone straying over it,even by a little.
    Seems a bit silly,when most speedos aren't marked to show that speed.
    Can you imagine trying to hold the needle at 78mph ?
    Nightmare !
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  16. #55
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    Thanks for the reply bowfer, interesting, and speeders bug the hell out of me in my village too.

    I do find it a bit ironic that in order to teach them 'a lesson' in not speeding, by 'leaving them stranded' with a twist of the throttle, you are breaking the speed limit yourself?!

    Perhaps you'd be better leaving roads policing to the police?

    Or, in our village, we campaigned for traffic calming and got the whole lot thrown our way, pinch points, humps, advisory signs and, after it was found they were being ignored, 4 speed cameras. The cameras slowed people down more than any of the other measures, and there is a perverse pleasure to be had watching the speed camera going off as I walk back up the hill to my house from the pub!
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  17. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tooks
    Thanks for the reply bowfer, interesting, and speeders bug the hell out of me in my village too.

    I do find it a bit ironic that in order to teach them 'a lesson' in not speeding, by 'leaving them stranded' with a twist of the throttle, you are breaking the speed limit yourself?!

    Perhaps you'd be better leaving roads policing to the police?
    With regard to your first point,of course it can be argued that I will be breaking the limit for a short time,but I would argue that's better than having the twat that is attempting to overtake me (as I am doing bang on 30mph) actually manage his overtake and speed through the entire zone at 45 mph.

    With regard to your second point,I would argue this is the sort of attitude that means Britain is going to hell in a handcart.
    Far too many people 'turn a blind eye' to lawbreaking,with a shrug of the shoulders and a 'leave it to the police' attitude.
    Yeah ?
    What police would that be then ?
    Even if you do leave it to them,they're not interested.
    A girl here had a woman overtake her,in a 30mph zone,right outside a school as the school lights were flashing (actually meaning the effective speed limit was 20mph).
    They weren't interested in the slightest,they tried everything to put the girl here off making an official report.

    Sorry,but I'm a direct action kind of bloke.
    If I see someone trying to speed in a 30mph zone,I'll try and make it difficult for them to do so.
    If my neighbours are noisy,I'll see to them myself.
    Etc.etc.
    I could give further examples,involving bike thiefs for one,but I think it would prove too controversial for some on here ;-)
    Last edited by Amchlolor; 23rd January 2007 at 12:36.
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  18. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowfer
    If I see someone trying to speed in a 30mph zone,I'll try and make it difficult for them to do so.
    When someone does that to me then It just makes me more determined to pass them, and often get out and kick their cnut in just to illustrate the general public will not dictate conformity to me. Its only breaking the law if you get caught you see.

    Of course I agree with you about appropriate speed and not speeding in built up areas esp school areas but that still doesnt justify your actions. I could be quite happy doing 35mph but you could push me all the way yo silly speeds to proove MY point!

    unfortunately people try and employ the tactics you use in 60 and 70mph limits which raises the stakes in terms of risk, and there are people like me who are too willing to play both on the road and on the roadside!

    It seems Brown is missing a trick here, we could save a fortune not employing police at all with our self policing society.

  19. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by nervus
    When someone does that to me then It just makes me more determined to pass them, and often get out and kick their cnut in just to illustrate the general public will not dictate conformity to me. Its only breaking the law if you get caught you see.
    Why would you be trying to overtake someone doing 30mph,in a 30mph zone ?
    ;-)

    Like I said,I really don't give a flying fig if anyone agrees with me or not,I will still stick religiously to 30mph,in a 30mph zone,and I will do my damndest to make it difficult for anyone who would rather do more.

    With regard to your self-policing society comment,I'm afraid I would argue it's been forced on us by Brown,rather than Brown using it to his benefit.

    Whole different thread though.
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  20. #59
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    bowfer - its idiots like you who cause accidents.... 'speeding up to put someone overtaking in a potentially dangerous situation' and your having a go at people who break the 30 limit - for god sake take a look at yourself - two wrongs do not make a right mate. If someone wants to overtake and break the limit in doing so then that is their risk to take and definately not your decision to try and stop them - the safest thing is to let them get on with it, not try and cause them to have an accident to teach them a lesson - at the end of the day it has absolutely nothing to do with you if they wanna overtake.

    Thats dangerous driving and far more serious than a few mph over the limit - and when you get caught doing that it certainly won't be dealt with by an SP30. If i were a copper and saw you doing that I would see it as you trying to race on the public highway and you get absolutely hammered for that.
    Last edited by steve184; 23rd January 2007 at 13:33.

  21. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowfer
    Why would you be trying to overtake someone doing 30mph,in a 30mph zone ?
    ;-)

    Like I said,I really don't give a flying fig if anyone agrees with me or not,I will still stick religiously to 30mph,in a 30mph zone,and I will do my damndest to make it difficult for anyone who would rather do more.

    With regard to your self-policing society comment,I'm afraid I would argue it's been forced on us by Brown,rather than Brown using it to his benefit.

    Whole different thread though.
    TBH, In most cases I probably wouldn't be trying to overtake someone doing 30 in a 30 zone. I find in most cases that its usually impossible to overtake in a 30mph.

    Even if someone is doing 20mph, it is rarely safe to get past without exceeding the limit. I'll only pass someone in such an environment if I know at the next junction or roundabout im going to be stuck behind them for another 10 mins as I know they are incapable of getting out again.

  22. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve184
    bowfer - its idiots like you who cause accidents.... 'speeding up to put someone overtaking in a potentially dangerous situation' and your having a go at people who break the 30 limit - for god sake take a look at yourself - two wrongs do not make a right mate. If someone wants to overtake and break the limit in doing so then that is their risk to take and definately not your decision to try and stop them - the safest thing is to let them get on with it, not try and cause them to have an accident to teach them a lesson - at the end of the day it has absolutely nothing to do with you if they wanna overtake.

    Thats dangerous driving and far more serious than a few mph over the limit.
    The overtaking in a 30mph zone scenario doesn't come up very often.
    Far more often is the 'hard up my backside as I stick to 30mph' scenario,trying to intimidate me into breaking the limit.

    How dare I stick to the limit when their tea is on the table,after all.

    Well I won't be intimidated into doing so,ta very much.

    Save the 'you're an idiot,you could cause an accident' tag for someone who deserves it.

    Christ knows what sort of images/scenarios you've conjured up in your mind,but it must involve watching 'death race 2000' one too many times.
    Last edited by Amchlolor; 23rd January 2007 at 13:35.
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    not saying your wrong for sticking to 30 - because you are definetely not - and i for one would never contemplate overtaking someone doing 30 - i'm happy to sit behind them at that same speed - but yes i'm sure there are plenty who would - but they are not your responsibility just leave them to it don't try and mess them up - is has nothing to do with you whatsoever, concentrate on your own affairs not that of others.

  24. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve184
    not saying your wrong for sticking to 30 - because you are definetely not - and i for one would never contemplate overtaking someone doing 30 - i'm happy to sit behind them at that same speed - but yes i'm sure there are plenty who would - but they are not your responsibility just leave them to it don't try and mess them up - is has nothing to do with you whatsoever, concentrate on your own affairs not that of others.
    The scenario I mentioned happens on the bike,presumably because people either assume I'm on some sort of moped that can only do 30mph flat out (the government's fault,not theirs) or they see me as some sort of 'easy meat' that can be forced into the gutter.

    A wee blast of the throttle to show them I'm perfectly capable of doing more,but won't,hardly rates me as someone who will deliberately endanger life by forcing them into oncoming traffic,swerving towards them or other such shennanigans.

    If I ever came across someone who was absolutely determined to get past me,I'm sure I would let them.

    Then I'd follow them home and burn their house down....only joking...
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    "I'm a realist, and yes, I do speed from time to time. But, my attitude to it IS changing as a result of the way it's being enforced these days, and that's a good thing IMO."
    No it's not, it is creating a whole generation of drivers who think as long as they don't break the speed limit then they are safe drivers, which the law would apparently agree with as there's bugger all else out there that'll catch them texting while driving, or drunk behind the wheel. The obsession with speed as the only possible cause of any accident is not only completely bogus but totally misleading. We know it only accounts for less than 7% of serious accidents (that's a fact published by the TRRL, and bourne out by insurance companies who no longer put up premiums for SP30's).
    This is a very dangerous route to go down, it is actually making the standard of driving in the UK even worse with people asleep at the wheel but supposedly "safe" because they're not speeding. Criminally gullible morons who believe the hype are just contributing to the problem. 30mph residential areas aside, I'm talking about fast, safe roads that are home to the majority of camera's and more importantly mobile traps.
    They have 2 effects, they either turn everyone into a zombie behind the wheel, or create a total disregard for any motoring law, neither of which is contributing to reducing accidents. Have accidents decreased since the introduction of 2 million speed cameras in the UK over the last 10 years? No they haven't, they've stayed the same or gone up. Those are the facts, not opinion. Fine & point the idiots having accidents not the ones who might potentially have one, especially HGV drivers who seem happy to create havoc on our motorways and never seem to be punished.

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    With our powerful Audis it takes only a momentary lapse in concentration to exceed the 30 / 40 mph limits without intending to. That's how I got my last 3 points. Since then I've driven with at least half my attention focused on the speedo. Which can't be a good thing.

    For this reason I specified cruise control on my latest A3. It works really well - especially coupled with the big LED digital speed display in the DIS. You can easily adjust speed up and down to cope with traffic flow, and the resume function is as intuitive as dipping headlights. My left hand manages my speed, leaving me free to watch the road ahead.

    Does anyone else use cruise control like this? I've found it helps me to concentrate on the traffic rather than my speed.
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  27. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by trims

    Does anyone else use cruise control like this? I've found it helps me to concentrate on the traffic rather than my speed.
    Absolutely.
    I wish I'd ordered it on my car,although it should really be standard equipment on all but the most basic models.
    Even cheap Golfs (the Golf Match,for example) come with it standard.

    When I do drive cars with it fitted,I find myself using it all the time.
    It's not the 'motorway only' thing I thought it was before.
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    Yes cruise has saved my licence, although I only tend to use it on the motorway, which is where I got all my previous points (before I had it).

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    Personally, I think its a load of rubbish that enforcing speed limits is turning drivers in the uk into a bunch of zombie like bad drivers - they were bad already, it's just that now a lot of them are racking up points for speeding too, which hopefully will take some of them off the roads for a bit.

    And, I'm sorry, but if you can't drive and check your speedo to ensure you're within the posted limits without feeling safe, then you probably shouldn't be driving at all. Think about it, it's really not that difficult.

    Road deaths, as pointed out above, have remained pretty static over the last 10 years, but that's against a tremendous rise in the number of cars and journeys made over the same period. Who can say whether the number of cameras and camera vans has contributed to helping that stay down or not? It's probably more to do with the way cars protect their occupants better in all honesty.

    But, I'm not sure why speed limit enforcement is looked upon so unfavourably on here, and is there any evidence at all that if all speed cameras were suddenly turned off, roads would become safer places as the moronic drivers we've all quoted seeing recently suddenly become better drivers? It's not going to happen is it.

    For those arguing that we need to focus on other things apart from speed, the following might be of interest. I attended the 2007 Roads Policing Conference this year, and believe me when I say that there is a strong move from the Police Force traffic units, until recently in decline, to move away from the unhealthy focus on speed and more towards tackling bad driving and criminal use of the roads. They will of course remain committed to tackling the roads biggest cause of deaths and serious injuries - Drink and Drug driving.

    You should also see a move towards tackling the problem of young (under 27) drivers killing themselves, and others, with alarming regularity, some of that due to outright speeding, and some due to innapropriate speed, inexperience and the aforementioned drink and drugs problem. The Home Office and the Police are working on ways to tackle this as we speak, but there is a move towards more funding for the traditional traffic units, supported by chief constables.

    I drive 40,000 miles a year in the uk and europe, and witness everyday the most terrible driving, admittedly not all of it above the speed limits. Aggressive tailgating, undertaking, sudden lane changing, drivers distracted by kids/partner/changing cds/texting/reading maps, road rage, selfish driving, and people just generally thinking they have the god given right to get where they want, at whatever speed they want, and damn the rest of us and god help you if you get in my way type attitude.

    I know speed cameras don't tackle much of the above, but they are a good way of getting at some of them, and maybe, just maybe, having an impact on the rest of their driving. More traffic units are a preferable solution, but we only want to pay so much tax to fund them, and the limited numbers can't be everywhere.

    Education is part of it, but please, no more posts saying you wouldn't have been 'caught speeding if it hadn't have been for x or y idiot getting in my way', or my 'powerful car creeps over the limit so easily, and now I'm criminalised' as quite simply YOU are in control of the car, or at least should be, and nobody else is responsible so don't try and kid yourself otherwise.

    If speed cameras mean one less knock on the door to tell a relative that they'll never see their loved one again, or fewer roads are closed for hours as body parts are searched for and remains extracted from mangled cars, then that can only be a good thing. You may feel perfectly safe driving at 90 on a motorway, but if you have a crash, or get caught up in one caused by the 'other morons' the facts are that you'll be in a considerably worse position than if you'd been doing 70.

    Yes, statistically, Motorways are our safest roads, but the vast majority of speed cameras and vans are not on Motorways, despite what you may read in other posts, and are in fact placed on A and country roads, which claim many many lives each year through people failing to negotiate a corner or performing ill advised overtakes etc etc.

    Driving a car is a huge responsibility, and part of that responsibility is sticking to posted speed limits, or lower if conditions demand it.

    Enthusiast drivers may be up to that task, but a lot of other people seem to struggle with it, hence the need for speed enforcement. I've seen pictures from static cameras on the A14, where cars have triggered the camera which was set to 79mph. It was so foggy, the car couldn't even be seen, and the worrying thing was there were more than 20 occurences during the day...

    Finally, if you don't want the stress of looking for speed cameras, then stay within the limit - it's easy!
    Last edited by Tooks; 24th January 2007 at 12:11.
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    "I'm not sure why speed limit enforcement is looked upon so unfavourably on here, and is there any evidence at all that if all speed cameras were suddenly turned off, roads would become safer places as the moronic drivers we've all quoted seeing recently suddenly become better drivers? It's not going to happen is it."
    No, but similarly if we erradicate speeding do you think we'd see a reduction in accidents? Obviously not, in fact they would increase, as the number of cars on the road at any one time would increase. Our motorways actually rely on speeders otherwise we'd be gridlocked.
    The main point here is while the focus and investment is being made in catching speeding motorists, nothing is being done to address the other 93% of factors that cause accidents. The UK public is being brainwashed into thinking that "speed kills", to the exclusion of everything else.
    They are treating the symptom not the cause, it really is that simple.
    I agree with much of what you've said, and it's encouraging that the police seem to be doing something about it. I don't have any problem with speeders being prosecuted. It is the manner in which they are targetted that is the issue here.
    Totally indescriminate prosecution of anyone breaking the limit regardless of the circumstances, and usually in locations where they can get a good return on their investment rather than having anything to do with increasing road safety. Camera's are decreasing road safety as drivers react to them by slamming brakes on even though they may not be speeding at the time. I drive 30k miles a year and consistently speed on the motorway and will continue to do so. Sitting at 70 or less on the motorway is downright dangerous and stupid unless you want to be mashed by a lefthand drive HGV.
    Driving is a huge responsibility and it should be a damn sight harder to get behind the wheel than it is at the moment. We need some stringent changes to the laws governing the roads. We need retesting every 5 years, OAP's every year, HGV's limited to nearside lane in rush hour, young drivers to wear green L plates and maybe restricted in some way, traffic lights on roundabouts erradicated except at rush hour, drivers causing accidents to be fined and pointed, motorway speed limit raised to 80-85 for cars etc etc. No one can expect to increase road safety by changing one simple thing, it's far more complicated, which is why it'll never happen.
    You cannot base your road safety strategy on pandering to the incompetant, that's just a road to disaster.
    Last edited by AndyMac; 24th January 2007 at 12:25.

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    I agree with a lot of what you just said there, particularly with regard to some of the ideas you mention around initial driver training and limiting new drivers in some way. These things are being seriously looked at by the Home Office and Police Service.

    Of course, make it tougher to get a licence, and some people just won't bother, and the numbers of unlicensed drivers is a growing problem. That's why electronic monitoring of vehicles is not going to go away any time soon, and a lot of police patrol vehicles you see trundling along at 60mph in the nearside lane are actually using Automatic Number Plate Recognition via roof mounted cameras to trap uninsured/untaxed/unregistered vehicles.

    The Police Service dislike the Governments fixation with speed these last few years just as much as you do, and that's why the balance is changing.

    But, cameras are not going to go away I'm afraid, because they enforce the law in an area which is a growing problem. As I said earlier, don't get fixated with Motorways, as that is not where the problem is. Some Police Forces actually support an increase in the limit to 80mph, so don't be surprised if that happens sometime in the future.

    Regarding the point that speeding helps keep the Motorways flowing, I'm afraid all of the evidence I've seen goes against this. Millions of pounds have been spent monitoring traffic flows over thousands of miles of road, and speeding cars cause the 'concertina effect' where eventually, maybe miles after a group of fast moving and close together cars all have to late brake, a 'stall' happens in the traffic flow. The best traffic flow is seen to happen with cars travelling at the same speed, currently somewhere between 50 and 60 mph, which is why we're starting to see variable speed limits over here. The reason they don't seem to work so well is again the mentality of drivers who insist that speed limit gantrys are things to be got between as fast as possible with late braking in case they are 'live' with cameras, before booting it the other side.

    No, I agree cameras do not cure all motoring ills, but they play a part.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyMac
    young drivers to wear green L plates and maybe restricted in some way,
    Hear hear !
    As a motorcyclist and car driver it really grips my sh** that young bikers have to go through various power restrictions on their way to a bigger bike,yet the only thing that restricts young drivers in their choice of car is the size of their wallet.

    Sorry,but you see it on here.
    20 year old's driving S3's !

    Bloody ludicrous.

    I would suggest a 1300cc and/or 60bhp restriction for young drivers,for a minimum of a year,at which point they can go through another,harder,test to allow them to drive more powerful cars.

    I'd also like the police to take as much interest in illegal car exhausts as they do illegal bike exhausts,but that's a whole different thread..sorry..
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    "As I said earlier, don't get fixated with Motorways, as that is not where the problem is" - sorry but that's exactly where the problem is as all of my 9 points were mobile traps on bridges across motorways. One of them was on the M3 on a clear summers evening, with little traffic. Real accident blackspot!
    I hear what you say about traffic flow on motorways, but to my simple mind, if you can knock 30 minutes off a 4 hour journey by doing 85mph on the motorway then you will be on the road for less time, leaving more room for all the other vehicles. If we all do 70 on the motorway all the time then there will be 10% more cars on the road at any one time as everyone's journey will take longer.
    Just to add to the argument, it'll be interesting to see how the new electric cars will add to the road safety of pedestrians - totally silent= totally deadly.
    I guess we already see it to a certain extent with iPODs. It's about time we got a bit tougher on pedestrians and cyclists as well. The road is a dangerous place, and jay walking should be illegal.

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    Speaking from experience, a journey of four hours in this country takes about the same time at 70 or 85 mph once you take into account congestion, and comfort breaks etc. On a clear road, obviously your journey would be quicker, but how often is that the case? The potential time savings, as small as they are, certainly aren't worth getting points for.

    Plus, you could relax and concentrate on driving as you wouldn't have to keep your eye out for those camera vans on the bridges if you stuck to the speed limit!

    The 'silent car' is indeed another debate, but I'd always argue that as stupid as some pedestrians and cyclists can be, I think it's up to us car drivers to be responsible for them as well - I don't want to kill anybody!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tooks
    Speaking from experience, a journey of four hours in this country takes about the same time at 70 or 85 mph once you take into account congestion, and comfort breaks etc.
    I regularly do Aberdeen to Manchester in 4.5 hours.
    Never stop,don't have to refuel.
    You can probably work out the average speed required,yet I have a clean licence.

    S'great !
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    "a journey of four hours in this country takes about the same time at 70 or 85 mph once you take into account congestion, and comfort breaks etc."
    Well that's a ridiculous claim, it saves me at least 10%, probably more on a clear run. I regularly travel from Southampton to Warrington and it can save me 40 minutes. Congestion just makes it more necessary to go faster when you get clear air.
    My motorway points were all accrued above 85mph. Generally you're pretty safe at 85mph, so I set the cruise control on 85 against GPS.
    Travelling at 70mph on the motorway is far more dangerous as well as fairly difficult.
    I'm not suggesting we ignore pedestrians and cyclists, just that they have to take some responsibility for their behaviour on the road. It could be argued that travelling at 40mph would make it harder for them to time their stupid manoevour so that it caused an accident (joke).
    I would argue that making something appear more dangerous can actually make it safer, e.g. having a 10" spike sticking out of the steering wheel would focus the drivers behaviour a little more than making cars more comfortable and quiet. Driving around in my sisters old style Mini Cooper makes speeding pretty uncomfortable and the hood on my old GTi convertible would balloon out over 80mph and make a horrendous noise so you did tend to keep the speed down.

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    So, why not just leave 24 minutes earlier, don't risk any points, and save some fuel to boot?

    I will never, ever, be convinced that it's worth speeding to get somewhere (unless a medical emergency!). I learnt that years ago.

    I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, you do your thing, and I'll do mine!
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  38. #77
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    I agree with Andymac.
    Attempting to sit at 70mph on a motorway,whilst not being impossible,is probably more difficult than simply keeping with the flow,which (in my experience) errs towards 80-90mph.
    I must admit,I'm amazed to hear that people get done for 85mph on motorways,as I always thought they would turn a blind eye to it,unless you're drawing attention to yourself in the process (the only one doing that speed,or driving like a twit).
    I always work on what I call the 'wingman' method.
    I wait for someone to go past and I become their shadow for as long as they're going my direction.
    Seems to work well !
    I never 'take the lead'.
    Cowardly,I know !

    I tell you something,I dread to think how long Aberdeen to Manchester would take at 70mph.
    All bloody day.
    As for comfort breaks on a 4 hour journey....good grief...
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    I'm obviously not as macho as you guys! Or, is it my weak bladder...

    My autoroute just said about 6 hours for Aberdeen to Manchester. To do it in 4.5, you'd have to average 77.5 according to my maths... (EDIT: Which isn't too bad actually! I'd thought you said 4 hours, not 4.5..)

    Why do you and Andymac keep trying to justify speeding on the motorway, and then complaining that it's not fair when you get nicked? I just don't get it. I'd rather take longer and keep a clean licence thanks.

    Also, it's just bloody ridiculous to say it's more difficult to stick to the speed limits or thereabouts on a motorway than go with all the other self proclaimed top gun drivers! You certainly can, and without going over 80mph ocassionally to stay with the flow where you may be getting a bit boxed in.

    It's called a commute, not the bloody Gumball 3000....
    Last edited by Tooks; 24th January 2007 at 16:20.
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  40. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tooks
    Why do you and Andymac keep trying to justify speeding on the motorway, and then complaining that it's not fair when you get nicked?
    I haven't moaned about getting nicked.
    I can't,I've got a clean licence.
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    Because at 70mph you will be a hazard, holding up everyone behind you or constantly having to weave in & out of the lorry lane. Neither appeals to me. You may be that middle lane road hog, but personally I cannot stand having traffic up my arse.

 

 
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