New S3 not quattro
- Thread starter Distant Sun
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Not really a huge surprise though given the old one is the same and so are all the other "small" vag group cars, 272BHP does make it sound more interesting though - as long as it's true!
d3fy
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Ess_Three
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Whats the differance then between the two?
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quattro in the accepted Audi sense means torsen Diffs.
These diffs are constantly working and constantly adjusting front to rear torque split.
This is a sort of 'active' set up, if you like...it just gets on with it, is progressive and predictable and needs no outside interference to get it working.
Haldex uses an electronically adjustable centre diff that sends power to the rear of a predominantly FWD car, when it needs torque to the rear.
So, it needs the front wheels to slip, before it gets a signal to send torque rearwards.
This is a more 'reactive' system as it needs to see front slip to decide to send torque rearwards...so you get a less predictable and less progressive system.
Whats the differance then between the two?
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quattro in the accepted Audi sense means torsen Diffs.
These diffs are constantly working and constantly adjusting front to rear torque split.
This is a sort of 'active' set up, if you like...it just gets on with it, is progressive and predictable and needs no outside interference to get it working.
Haldex uses an electronically adjustable centre diff that sends power to the rear of a predominantly FWD car, when it needs torque to the rear.
So, it needs the front wheels to slip, before it gets a signal to send torque rearwards.
This is a more 'reactive' system as it needs to see front slip to decide to send torque rearwards...so you get a less predictable and less progressive system.
Thats correct of the generation of Haldex in the original S3 Glen, but the newer ones can use throttle inputs etc to transfer torque to the rear even before wheel slip - here's hoping that Audi fully implement all the latest Haldex features this time!
Distant Sun
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Not really a huge surprise though given the old one is the same and so are all the other "small" vag group cars
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There you go, you learn something new every day. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif I was under the impression that if it said quattro on it it was the quattro system, in that quattro was a specific trademarked system. I knew there was some sort of difference between quattro and Haldex in the way that the power was transferred through the wheels (thanks for the explanation Ess_Three) but I wasn't aware that the existing S3 (or A3 1.8T quattro) was actually using Haldex like the R32. Have I got that right now? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
I just assumed because in the few details given in the article the fact that Haldex not quattro was being used, that this was something new. Oh well, perhaps one of the mods could amend the title to 'New S3, nothing new to see here, move along'.
Not really a huge surprise though given the old one is the same and so are all the other "small" vag group cars
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There you go, you learn something new every day. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif I was under the impression that if it said quattro on it it was the quattro system, in that quattro was a specific trademarked system. I knew there was some sort of difference between quattro and Haldex in the way that the power was transferred through the wheels (thanks for the explanation Ess_Three) but I wasn't aware that the existing S3 (or A3 1.8T quattro) was actually using Haldex like the R32. Have I got that right now? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
I just assumed because in the few details given in the article the fact that Haldex not quattro was being used, that this was something new. Oh well, perhaps one of the mods could amend the title to 'New S3, nothing new to see here, move along'.
Ess_Three
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(thanks for the explanation Ess_Three)
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My pleasure...
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but I wasn't aware that the existing S3 (or A3 1.8T quattro) was actually using Haldex like the R32. Have I got that right now? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
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Yeah...that's right. R32 & S3 = Haldex.
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I just assumed because in the few details given in the article the fact that Haldex not quattro was being used, that this was something new.
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Nah...same basic simple...different software though.
Just as the R32 has 'better' software than the S3...it seems to send power to the rear sooner than the S3.
(thanks for the explanation Ess_Three)
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My pleasure...
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but I wasn't aware that the existing S3 (or A3 1.8T quattro) was actually using Haldex like the R32. Have I got that right now? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
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Yeah...that's right. R32 & S3 = Haldex.
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I just assumed because in the few details given in the article the fact that Haldex not quattro was being used, that this was something new.
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Nah...same basic simple...different software though.
Just as the R32 has 'better' software than the S3...it seems to send power to the rear sooner than the S3.
Ess_Three
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Thats correct of the generation of Haldex in the original S3 Glen, but the newer ones can use throttle inputs etc to transfer torque to the rear even before wheel slip - here's hoping that Audi fully implement all the latest Haldex features this time!
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I'm sceptical...
Haldex is still a reactive system...so it needs to know how much torqe to send where, and when.
Although current software may send more rearwards under hard throttle openings, it still needs to monitor slip to decide how much to send...or you could end up spinning the rear wheels coming out of a corner...which Audi would never allow!
Haldex looks at steering angle too doesn't it...so it may send more rearwards as the default, until steering angle, yaw angle or wheel slip are calculated...then it amends.Regardless of how it does it...it's not as predictable as Torsen diffs...or viscous diffs...because it needs to see something happen before it makes a decision.
Unlike quattro proper which is continually transferring torque to the wheel which can best use it.
Don't get me wrong..torsen isn't perfect...but it's more predictable and progressive than Haldex.
I'll be intrigued to see how the new S3 deploys it's torque though...I too hope it's got a bit more rear bias...if for nothnig else than to try to kill some understeer.
Thats correct of the generation of Haldex in the original S3 Glen, but the newer ones can use throttle inputs etc to transfer torque to the rear even before wheel slip - here's hoping that Audi fully implement all the latest Haldex features this time!
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I'm sceptical...
Haldex is still a reactive system...so it needs to know how much torqe to send where, and when.
Although current software may send more rearwards under hard throttle openings, it still needs to monitor slip to decide how much to send...or you could end up spinning the rear wheels coming out of a corner...which Audi would never allow!
Haldex looks at steering angle too doesn't it...so it may send more rearwards as the default, until steering angle, yaw angle or wheel slip are calculated...then it amends.Regardless of how it does it...it's not as predictable as Torsen diffs...or viscous diffs...because it needs to see something happen before it makes a decision.
Unlike quattro proper which is continually transferring torque to the wheel which can best use it.
Don't get me wrong..torsen isn't perfect...but it's more predictable and progressive than Haldex.
I'll be intrigued to see how the new S3 deploys it's torque though...I too hope it's got a bit more rear bias...if for nothnig else than to try to kill some understeer.
Distant Sun
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Yep basically all I'm hoping is that Audi use the haldex system to the full this time, as I think even for the other cars that use the newer haldex systems in the VAG group they are still not using all the features they can. I think if the new S3 does end up being lighter than the 3.2Q and does have 272 or more BHP it could be quite a good car as long as they don't ruin the handling which after recent S and RS cars does look hopeful!
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Let's hope...
The public have proved there is a market for lairy audis (new RS4) and there is certainly a market for a suitably lairy A3...
But, as usual, I expect a let down... safe, uninspiring, etc...
The public have proved there is a market for lairy audis (new RS4) and there is certainly a market for a suitably lairy A3...
But, as usual, I expect a let down... safe, uninspiring, etc...
hopefully they've listened to the praise of the new RS4 having a rear bias too, and decided to adopt it for further new models.
The 8l series Used Haldex generation 1 and you could upgrade the controller to give the torque transfer quicker. The 8p uses gen 2 haldex which is an improved version of gen 1 and needs less slip to transfer torque. There is also Haldex gen 2 with Pre-X that Volvo use on some of their cars. Pre-X can give you maximum torque transfer without the wheels even needing to slip i believe it learns the driving style and pre-empts any occasion where there could be slip.
More info can be found at http://www.haldex-traction.com/
More info can be found at http://www.haldex-traction.com/
Ess_Three
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The 8l series Used Haldex generation 1 and you could upgrade the controller to give the torque transfer quicker. The 8p uses gen 2 haldex which is an improved version of gen 1 and needs less slip to transfer torque. There is also Haldex gen 2 with Pre-X that Volvo use on some of their cars. Pre-X can give you maximum torque transfer without the wheels even needing to slip i believe it learns the driving style and pre-empts any occasion where there could be slip.
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It is still a reactive system though...and as such needs outside influences to make decisions...as such it's relatively easy to get a Haldex car to do something unexpected.
don't get me wrong...the system works and works well. But, it's not as predictable on the limit...as dependant on grip, throttle angle, slip and steering position it can decide to look for better grip, and upset the balance of the car mid bend.
I had my S3 scare me 3 times with this...it's just a part of the Haldex operation.
Not as predicatable as Torsen...
The 8l series Used Haldex generation 1 and you could upgrade the controller to give the torque transfer quicker. The 8p uses gen 2 haldex which is an improved version of gen 1 and needs less slip to transfer torque. There is also Haldex gen 2 with Pre-X that Volvo use on some of their cars. Pre-X can give you maximum torque transfer without the wheels even needing to slip i believe it learns the driving style and pre-empts any occasion where there could be slip.
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It is still a reactive system though...and as such needs outside influences to make decisions...as such it's relatively easy to get a Haldex car to do something unexpected.
don't get me wrong...the system works and works well. But, it's not as predictable on the limit...as dependant on grip, throttle angle, slip and steering position it can decide to look for better grip, and upset the balance of the car mid bend.
I had my S3 scare me 3 times with this...it's just a part of the Haldex operation.
Not as predicatable as Torsen...
Ess_Three
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Haldex would seem to work well though, never had any problems with mine, on the R32 I had or the A3.
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No doubt...
But on the limit it can do strange things that a more organic sort of 4WD system doesn't. That's my point.
Haldex would seem to work well though, never had any problems with mine, on the R32 I had or the A3.
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No doubt...
But on the limit it can do strange things that a more organic sort of 4WD system doesn't. That's my point.
