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Thread: Lag

  1. #121
    Eeef's Avatar
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    Re: Lag

    To be fair, that wasn't your best effort Dave [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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  3. #122

    Re: Lag

    The purpose of the comment seems to have been lost on you guys. Perhaps it would have made more sense if I had included S-Line previous comment.

    All I was meaning was that following the previous post where S-line said 'Turbo cars have lag' and Non Turbos cars do not was...

    Diesel cars have turbos and Lag but do 45-50mpg
    Petrol cars without turbos do not suffer from Lag, which is true but they only do 20-25mpg. If I had not mentioned that some petrol cars also have turbos some clever dick would have almost certainly said 'What about the 2.0T petrol engine.'



    You can have 45-50mpg and accept some Lag or you can have a large petrol non-turbo engine with No Lag but you will only get 20-25mpg. You pays your money and takes your choice.


  4. #123
    Amchlolor's Avatar
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    Re: Lag

    [ QUOTE ]
    From those figures you will see there is little point in revving the engine much past 4000rpm.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Any well-designed engine should be able to rev past peak power,preferably without it's power dropping like a stone in the process.

    An engine that hits a 'brick wall' at peak power is a badly designed engine.

    My car is evidently different from yours David,as mine is still pulling very strongly at the auto-change point.

    If it wasn't,I wouldn't be so bothered,as I certainly am not some sort of mechanical masochist,determined to eek every last wheezing rev out of a car that stopped accelerating ages ago.

    At the top end of it's rev range,my car actually behaves in a very petrol-like manner.

    Far revvier than my 8 valve 1.9tdi.

  5. #124

    Re: Lag

    Not sure if my engine is any different from yours Bowfer, because when it's in manual mode I never rev it past about 3500-4000rpm. Don't see the point.

  6. #125

    Re: Lag

    With all this talk about turbo lag and earlier in the thread about adapting your driving to suit the car you are driving has reminded me about the when I changed from a Golf VR6 with a non-turbo 2.8 engine to an A3 1.8T Sport with a turbo charged 1.8 engine. Both petrol of course. Took a little getting used to but was well the effort in the end.

  7. #126
    imported_CurryMilkShake
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    Re: Lag

    From Fourtitude - March 6th 2006

    "Audi GB today announce the next generation of their super-smart electronically controlled gearboxes, guaranteed to be better at deciding when to shift than any driver could ever be. Designed using the principle of ' Shifting? only Morons Use Gears' or SMUG, this follows close in the heels of the previous 'Dogmatic Smug G1t' or DSG box, but no more will anyone have to adapt their driving style, as with the S.M.U.G. box they wont be doing the driving anyway!"

    Have a sense of humour - could be worse - mine only has fake gears, but its still fun!!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/****_you.gif[/img]

  8. #127
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    Re: Lag

    [ QUOTE ]
    From Fourtitude - March 6th 2006

    "Audi GB today announce the next generation of their super-smart electronically controlled gearboxes, guaranteed to be better at deciding when to shift than any driver could ever be. Designed using the principle of ' Shifting? only Morons Use Gears' or SMUG, this follows close in the heels of the previous 'Dogmatic Smug G1t' or DSG box, but no more will anyone have to adapt their driving style, as with the S.M.U.G. box they wont be doing the driving anyway!"

    Have a sense of humour - could be worse - mine only has fake gears, but its still fun!!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/****_you.gif[/img]

    [/ QUOTE ]


    Oh crikey! Batten down the hatches, DSG is in the thread again..............

  9. #128

    Re: Lag

    Be fair, if Audi didn't offer the DSG we have very little to talk about !

  10. #129
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    Re: Lag

    [ QUOTE ]
    Be fair, if Audi didn't offer the DSG we have very little to talk about !

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Maybe you don't but plenty of us have..

    Fuel flaps
    Rattles
    Dodgy steering
    Dodgy dealers
    Door handles that fall off
    Bonnets that need moving to make sure the wipers fit
    Windscreen trim that pops off (as mine did this morning)

    Any more ?

  11. #130

    Re: Lag

    I suppose I could talk about how good and reliable my A3 has been....

    No problems with the fuel flap
    No rattles
    No doggy steering
    A very good dealer
    No Door handles have fell off
    No problem with the wipers hitting the bonnet
    No windscreen trim popping off

    But then that would be just boring - no moans or complaints, just boringly doing what I want it to do.

  12. #131
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    Re: Lag

    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Be fair, if Audi didn't offer the DSG we have very little to talk about !

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Maybe you don't but plenty of us have..

    Fuel flaps
    Rattles
    Dodgy steering
    Dodgy dealers
    Door handles that fall off
    Bonnets that need moving to make sure the wipers fit
    Windscreen trim that pops off (as mine did this morning)

    Any more ?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    All car manufacturers have their faults, and these particular or similar faults will afflict other marques. Majority of the time we get a good one, sometimes not, but on forums like these we will only ever moan about the faults rather than say 'hey my car has done 80k miles and not had a single problem.

  13. #132

    Re: Lag

    We seem to have drifted onto the quality or not of Audi cars again - not really anything to do with 'Lag'

    Perhaps we should reserrect the Audi quality thread ?

  14. #133
    marriedblonde's Avatar
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    Re: Lag

    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]

    The gti versus A3 thread got to a fair old number of pages befroe being removed...

    [/ QUOTE ]

    why was it removed! seemed healthy to me! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

    [/ QUOTE ]

    LOL...it got a little bit personal towards the end

  15. #134
    imported_S_Line
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    Re: Lag

    Goodness me, you guys dodnt know what lag is until you drive a Ford Mondeo 2.0 Turbo Derv ( the old version)

    The Turbo is so Laggy you have to put your foot hard down when comming up to a corner, [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif[/img] by the time it spools up and starts to pull , you are out of the corner [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif[/img] Perfect timing !!

  16. #135
    imported_S_Line
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    Re: Lag

    [ QUOTE ]
    The red-line starts at 4400rpm on my 2.0TDI. The maximum power of 103kW is produced at 4000rpm and the maximum torque 320Nm at 1750-2500rpm.

    From those figures you will see there is little point in reving the engine much past 4000rpm.



    [/ QUOTE ]

    Well thats why the DSG changes gear when it Does !
    Case Closed [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif[/img]
    Wahts the point of over reving and loosing power before a gear change, i know many Saxo and Corsa boys do this, but its only to show off [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif[/img]

  17. #136
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    Re: Lag

    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    The red-line starts at 4400rpm on my 2.0TDI. The maximum power of 103kW is produced at 4000rpm and the maximum torque 320Nm at 1750-2500rpm.

    From those figures you will see there is little point in reving the engine much past 4000rpm.



    [/ QUOTE ]

    Well thats why the DSG changes gear when it Does !
    Case Closed [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif[/img]
    Wahts the point of over reving and loosing power before a gear change, i know many Saxo and Corsa boys do this, but its only to show off [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif[/img]

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Not case closed at all.

    For example,as I have said before and anyone with DSG can check themselves,the gearchange from 3rd to 4th at 60mph bogs the engine down something rotten and the car realy struggles to pick up from there.

    If you were able to hold onto the revs in third a wee bit longer,it would mean the change to fourth would be less of a struggle.

    If people still choose to change up at 4000rpm,that's fine,but give people the choice for god's sake !

    Another example of where over-rev can come into play is a short straight between two corners,the type of driving which I encounter every day.

    I will accelerate out of the first corner in third and the next corner is also a third gear corner.

    So,I want to stay in third.
    I don't want a needless gearchange up to fourth,just for me to instantly ask it to change back down again.

    Yet it does it.

    Basically,the DSG removes choice and full control from the driver.It replaces choice and full control with semi-control and pedantry.

    I have no problem with those that choose to keep the revs down,just as those same people shouldn't have a problem with me wanting to rev the hell out of it,if I choose.

    Even if some like the auto change-up,make it an option that can be switched off for us that don't.

  18. #137

    Re: Lag

    [ QUOTE ]
    I have no problem with those that choose to keep the revs down,just as those same people shouldn't have a problem with me wanting to rev the hell out of it,if I choose.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I do not have a problem with people who want to rev the hell out of it [their engine], providing my DSG still changes up at maximum power revs in any gear. For me personally that would remove one of the main advantages of the DSG. Namely being able to put the car in 'manual', pull out of a junction or away from traffic lights in first, for the change up to second, which comes up very quickly, to be handled by the DSG and the same for the change up to third.

    I would have not problem with the software in the DSG being made swichable between these 2 modes, but I would not want it to do it as standard. If you particulary want a gearbox that does that, then Audi already make one that gives complete freedom to change at whatever point you like - it's called a manual gearbox as opposed to a DSG. Horses for courses.

  19. #138
    imported_S_Line
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    Re: Lag

    I now see your Point Bowfer, that 3 rd gear over two corners is true and i would feel the same way as you do.

    Thats probably the best way to descibe your Niggles witth the DSG.

    And yes thats a very good idea to have a switch to either have the auto change at teh red line on or turn it off so it wont change gear at 4000 rpm.

    I now fully understand now [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

    Im sure this can be accessed in the ECU, if not now or if not very soon indeed.

    But back to the Oil Burner side of things, these engines do not produce more power high up the rev range, its teh Torque that Pulls you along not overall BHP. So why red line driving in a Oil Burner in the first place ?

    I bet you top dollor that those corners you are talking about can be driven just as fast in 4th [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif[/img]

  20. #139
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    Re: Lag

    [ QUOTE ]
    I now see your Point Bowfer, that 3 rd gear over two corners is true and i would feel the same way as you do.

    Thats probably the best way to descibe your Niggles witth the DSG.

    And yes thats a very good idea to have a switch to either have the auto change at teh red line on or turn it off so it wont change gear at 4000 rpm.

    I now fully understand now [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

    Im sure this can be accessed in the ECU, if not now or if not very soon indeed.

    But back to the Oil Burner side of things, these engines do not produce more power high up the rev range, its teh Torque that Pulls you along not overall BHP. So why red line driving in a Oil Burner in the first place ?

    I bet you top dollor that those corners you are talking about can be driven just as fast in 4th [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif[/img]

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I did an entire evening of acceleration tests S_line,and tried 'all the colours and all the sizes'.

    The best acceleration times were done by letting it rev,not changing up early.

    Them is the facts,so anyone that tells me changing up early is 'faster' is,as far as I'm concerned,talking out of their rear orifice.

    If they tell me it's more relaxing,or gives better mpg,or suits the car better,then fair enough.

    If they use the word "faster",they're wrong.

  21. #140
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    Re: Lag

    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    I now see your Point Bowfer, that 3 rd gear over two corners is true and i would feel the same way as you do.

    Thats probably the best way to descibe your Niggles witth the DSG.

    And yes thats a very good idea to have a switch to either have the auto change at teh red line on or turn it off so it wont change gear at 4000 rpm.

    I now fully understand now [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

    Im sure this can be accessed in the ECU, if not now or if not very soon indeed.

    But back to the Oil Burner side of things, these engines do not produce more power high up the rev range, its teh Torque that Pulls you along not overall BHP. So why red line driving in a Oil Burner in the first place ?

    I bet you top dollor that those corners you are talking about can be driven just as fast in 4th [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif[/img]

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I did an entire evening of acceleration tests S_line,and tried 'all the colours and all the sizes'.

    The best acceleration times were done by letting it rev,not changing up early.

    Them is the facts,so anyone that tells me changing up early is 'faster' is,as far as I'm concerned,talking out of their rear orifice.

    If they tell me it's more relaxing,or gives better mpg,or suits the car better,then fair enough.

    If they use the word "faster",they're wrong.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    And you timed it how, bowfer.......very scientific I presume [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

    Actually tried out your comment about 'hole' when changing from 3rd to 4th this morning. Punched it out of a corner at 50mph in 3rd, going up a long straight incline. Let it rev out and change itself, no hole in mine. So either the extra weight of the SB is exaggerating this or Audi
    lowered 3rd gear ratio in SB. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

  22. #141
    marriedblonde's Avatar
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    Re: Lag

    [ QUOTE ]

    The best acceleration times were done by letting it rev,not changing up early.

    Them is the facts,so anyone that tells me changing up early is 'faster' is,as far as I'm concerned,talking out of their rear orifice.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    When booting it mine also seems to be a lot faster if I let the engine rev out, although I normally change up before the cars decides I should but only by 200rpm maybe.

    These are seat of the bum though nothing against the clock.

    J.

  23. #142
    Amchlolor's Avatar
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    Re: Lag

    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    I now see your Point Bowfer, that 3 rd gear over two corners is true and i would feel the same way as you do.

    Thats probably the best way to descibe your Niggles witth the DSG.

    And yes thats a very good idea to have a switch to either have the auto change at teh red line on or turn it off so it wont change gear at 4000 rpm.

    I now fully understand now [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

    Im sure this can be accessed in the ECU, if not now or if not very soon indeed.

    But back to the Oil Burner side of things, these engines do not produce more power high up the rev range, its teh Torque that Pulls you along not overall BHP. So why red line driving in a Oil Burner in the first place ?

    I bet you top dollor that those corners you are talking about can be driven just as fast in 4th [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif[/img]

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I did an entire evening of acceleration tests S_line,and tried 'all the colours and all the sizes'.

    The best acceleration times were done by letting it rev,not changing up early.

    Them is the facts,so anyone that tells me changing up early is 'faster' is,as far as I'm concerned,talking out of their rear orifice.

    If they tell me it's more relaxing,or gives better mpg,or suits the car better,then fair enough.

    If they use the word "faster",they're wrong.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    And you timed it how, bowfer.......very scientific I presume [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

    Actually tried out your comment about 'hole' when changing from 3rd to 4th this morning. Punched it out of a corner at 50mph in 3rd, going up a long straight incline. Let it rev out and change itself, no hole in mine. So either the extra weight of the SB is exaggerating this or Audi
    lowered 3rd gear ratio in SB. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

    [/ QUOTE ]

    It's not a 'hole' as such,just there is quite a leap from 3rd to 4th,which obviously accounts for the poor 0-100mph time.

    0-60 in under 9 seconds is fine,but another 17 seconds from 60-100 is an age.

  24. #143
    imported_S_Line
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    Re: Lag

    What i cant understand is, if Bowfer wanted a Sports car with Sports car performance why buy a Oil Burner ?
    Or have i missed something along the way ?

  25. #144
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    Re: Lag

    Bud [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

  26. #145
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    Re: Lag

    [ QUOTE ]
    What i cant understand is, if Bowfer wanted a Sports car with Sports car performance why buy a Oil Burner ?
    Or have i missed something along the way ?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    26 seconds to 100mph is poor,even by "oil burner" standards.

    That's the point.

    They've geared 1,2 + 3 to get an impressive 0-60 mph time for the all- important brochure.

    They've also altered the 1,2,3 gearing in the DSG to make it beat the manual to 60mph,presumably so they can sell the DSG as a 'performance enhancement'.

    It's very clever,but deceiving.

    The BMW 320D trounces the A3 to 100mph,by some 5 seconds or so.

    I haven't been able to find 0-100 times for the 1 series yet,but I suspect it would be even quicker.

    They needn't have made the A3 struggle to 100mph though.
    It has 6 gears,so they could have been spaced in such a way that the change from 3rd to 4th didn't kill the acceleration.

  27. #146

    Re: Lag

    But surely all this would have shown up during a simple test drive. Buying a car without test driving it first and then complaining about it's gearing and performance is shutting the door after the horse has bolted. For whatever reasons Audi decided on the gearing is up to them. If people think they have made a serious mistake then surely those people do no buy the car.

    According to the current A3 brochure, a 2.0TDI with the 6-speed manual 0-62 is given as 9.5secs. The similar model with a DSG is 9.2secs. Do you honestly think people are going to be influenced by 0.3 secs.

  28. #147
    arthurfuxake's Avatar
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    Re: Lag

    Besides, where do you live that you get to accelerate to 100mph anyway? One barely gets a chance to accelerate to 70mph, never mind 100mph, and then it's onto the brakes as the slip road joins the motorway which is crawling along at 40mph anyway! This is a real-life car and gearbox for real-life motoring, not for quarter mile sprints. I'm willing to bet that once you've gotten rid of it, and swapped it for a manual petrol car, you'll be complaining about the fuel economy! You pays your money and makes your choice.

  29. #148
    marriedblonde's Avatar
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    Re: Lag

    [ QUOTE ]

    According to the current A3 brochure, a 2.0TDI with the 6-speed manual 0-62 is given as 9.5secs. The similar model with a DSG is 9.2secs. Do you honestly think people are going to be influenced by 0.3 secs.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    And Audi driver timed the manual at 7.8 secs to 62mph

    J.

  30. #149
    Amchlolor's Avatar
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    Re: Lag

    [ QUOTE ]
    According to the current A3 brochure, a 2.0TDI with the 6-speed manual 0-62 is given as 9.5secs. The similar model with a DSG is 9.2secs. Do you honestly think people are going to be influenced by 0.3 secs.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Well can you offer any other explanation as to why they've altered 1st,2nd and 3rd to benefit a quick 0-60 time ?

    People may not be influenced by it being 0.3 of second faster to 60mph,but Audi evidently thought sales would suffer if the DSG were slower to 60mph than the manual.

    Then again,they don't want to make it miles quicker to 60mph than the manual,so they chose gearing that would get it there around the same time,with a wee bit quicker being a bonus for the salesman.

    "..oh and it's actually faster to 60 sir"

    People will rarely ask by how much.

  31. #150
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    Re: Lag

    DSG would be faster, same engine, ultra rapid gear changes, it's not rocket science.

  32. #151
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    Re: Lag

    [ QUOTE ]
    Besides, where do you live that you get to accelerate to 100mph anyway?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    All the time.

    Rarely above 100mph,but I can get to 100mph within a mile or so of my house.

    The road I used to do my acceleration tests is two minutes drive away.

    Must be a mile or so straight with no junctions. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/groovy.gif[/img]

    Then it's hard braking for a roundabout and another great long straight.

    Want to buy my house ? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

  33. #152

    Re: Lag

    Another reason why the BMW 320d gets to 100mph 5 secs quicker than the Audi 2.0TDI could be that the BMW's engine produces 163bhp whereas the Audi 2.0TDI only has 138bhp.

    Also the 320d has a 0-60 figure of 8.1secs and the Sportback 9.6secs, a difference of 1.5secs. The top speed for the 320d is 136mph and the 2.0TDI Sportback 128mph. All Autocar figures using sophisticated timing and speed systems.

  34. #153
    Amchlolor's Avatar
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    Re: Lag

    [ QUOTE ]
    DSG would be faster, same engine, ultra rapid gear changes, it's not rocket science.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    It's evidently not that simple though,is it.

    They've had to alter the gearing to make it only a bit quicker.

    DSG,whilst giving "ultra-rapid" changes obviously has other side-effects that mean they have to alter the gearing.

    Weight,perhaps ?

  35. #154
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    Re: Lag

    Never have taken much notice of manufacturers claims on 0-60 etc. What I have said before and i'll mention it again for reference that my A3 DSG is noticeably quicker than my Golf 1.9TDI 150bhp. Real world quicker, now this may be down to better traction or better gearing or faster changes but it sure isn't more powerful - power / weight ratio wise.

    Anyone know what times the PD150 in the golf used to post.......i'd say sub 8secs for sure.

  36. #155
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    Re: Lag

    [ QUOTE ]
    Another reason why the BMW 320d gets to 100mph 5 secs quicker than the Audi 2.0TDI could be that the BMW's engine produces 163bhp whereas the Audi 2.0TDI only has 138bhp.

    Also the 320d has a 0-60 figure of 8.1secs and the Sportback 9.6secs, a difference of 1.5secs. The top speed for the 320d is 136mph and the 2.0TDI Sportback 128mph. All Autocar figures using sophisticated timing and speed systems.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I'm aware of that David,but the BMW is also heavier.

    The A3 sportback is 1410 kgs.
    The 3 series is 1520 kgs.

    Given the extra weight,the extra 20bhp is not,in itself,enough to explain the much better 0-100 time,or the higher top speed.

    Both can be explained by better choice of gearing and,for the top speed,better aerodynamics.

    Not that I'm a fan of the 3 series,just that the A3 should be closer to it at 100mph than 5 seconds behind.

  37. #156
    simonl's Avatar
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    Re: Lag

    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    DSG would be faster, same engine, ultra rapid gear changes, it's not rocket science.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    It's evidently not that simple though,is it.

    They've had to alter the gearing to make it only a bit quicker.

    DSG,whilst giving "ultra-rapid" changes obviously has other side-effects that mean they have to alter the gearing.

    Weight,perhaps ?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Out of curiosity, how do you know for sure the gear ratios are different and that the extra turn of speed just isn't down to the 0.2 second gear changes?

  38. #157
    Numptie of the highest order

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    Re: Lag

    [ QUOTE ]
    Out of curiosity, how do you know for sure the gear ratios are different and that the extra turn of speed just isn't down to the 0.2 second gear changes?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I was thinking the same... does anyone know what the actual ratios are?

  39. #158
    Ibis S3 Fan Club

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    Re: Lag

    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Out of curiosity, how do you know for sure the gear ratios are different and that the extra turn of speed just isn't down to the 0.2 second gear changes?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I was thinking the same... does anyone know what the actual ratios are?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I did post them some time ago, based on a manual golf tdi and a DSG version, and the DSG is geared lower. I'll try and dig out the info again.

  40. #159

    Re: Lag

    I have email Audi Customer Services asking if they can let me know the gear ratio of the DSG and the mph/1000rpm. I am still waiting for a reply !

    They could well be different for different models - may be different between the 3-door and Sportback as well as between different engines.

  41. #160
    5th Gear

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    Re: Lag

    Bowfer - you going to buy a bimmer next then?

 

 
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