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Thread: Lazy ESP?

  1. #81
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    Re: Lazy ESP?

    TC is a little different sir - if you can brake individual wheels to avoid a spin then you are a better driver than me...and somewhat of a genius

    of course the F1 boys are also worse drivers than yourself, they don't rely on TC at all do they?

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  3. #82
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    Re: Lazy ESP?

    [ QUOTE ]
    TC is a little different sir - if you can brake individual wheels to avoid a spin then you are a better driver than me...and somewhat of a genius

    of course the F1 boys are also worse drivers than yourself, they don't rely on TC at all do they?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    What did you do before ESP ?
    Spin everywhere ?

    There are thousands of cars on the road,new and old,without the benefit of ESP.I don't recall my journey in this morning ( in -1.5C ) being a hazardous affair with cars littering the road and only Audi's soldiering through.

    It's an AID,not the be-all-and-end-all.

    One day,I might be grateful for it I suppose,but I've managed to avoid disaster for 20 years without it,including driving in atrocious weather.

    Does you partner's car have it ?
    Would you avoid buying a car just because it doesn't have it ?


  4. #83
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    Re: Lazy ESP?

    no -i've managed to drive for 16 years with no spins either, although there was one incident in a celica that i'd rather forget.

    Countless track days and Driving days, 4 rounds of advanced training under my belt- however and I am greatful for ESP and I am not too much of a hero to say I would do better without it, anyone saying so is just foolish.....................

  5. #84
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    Re: Lazy ESP?

    This is thread is going slightly mad - ESP is a driver aid, 99.9% of the time (aside from Traction control perhaps) we would never know it was there.

    ESP exists for those exceedingly rare (the sensible amongst us) moments when the whole thing goes pear shaped. As has been suggested before we don't re-assess the situation 30,000 times a second - ESP does.

    Personally speaking another driver aid (and again part of ESP), ABS saves my bacon about one a year (25,000+miles).

    Am I good driver? Probably not, my ego says I'm probably no more than average. There are clearly some people on this board who are truly gifted in the driving department - I thought you lot drove BMWs........ [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh_roll.gif[/img]

  6. #85
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    Re: Lazy ESP?

    LOL!!!

  7. #86
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    Re: Lazy ESP?

    You hardly need to be a gifted driver to do fine without ESP.

    It's certainly not something I would ever deliberately look for in a car.

    If it has it,fine (as long as it's not overly pedantic).

    If it doesn't,fine again.

    ABS is an essential,but traction and ESP is not.

  8. #87
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    Re: Lazy ESP?

    Actually, F1 doesnt have ABS, so they're driving cars without an essential feature but with girlie TC? Sheesh, you contradict yourself!!!

  9. #88
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    Re: Lazy ESP?

    Double post.

  10. #89
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    Re: Lazy ESP?

    F1 is an extreme scenario (an intensely boring one at that).

    I bet if you asked the drivers,a fair few would want all control passed back to them.

    On the road,I would class ABS as an essential,whereas ESP/TC is not.

    You mention you take your car onto ther track.

    Surely you switch the ESP off ?

    Taking a car on track has always seemed dull to me (bikes are infinitely more fun),but leaving the ESP on would just make it worse.

    No chance of the car getting out of shape ?
    On a track ?

    What the hell is the point... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/snore.gif[/img]

  11. #90
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    Re: Lazy ESP?

    Agree on F1 being boring [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

    I find taking cars on tracks good fun as it lets me explore the limits with and without ESP (And ABS on some cars i've had) Some of the event days i've been on has allowed me to drive my cars on skid pans and simulated ice pans, where believe me ESP did wonders, which is why I choose cars with it on rather than without. In my mind it is as essential as ABD (Which although essential does actually increase stopping distances marginally)

    The point is that ESP does a better chance of saving you when things get badly wrong than 99.99% of most drivers...........

    And where's the obsession with "getting a car out of shape" you sound like Tiff Needell "Hand the back end out" but have you ever noticed that this may not be the fastest way from point A to point B?

    Oh and have track day'd a couple of bikes in my time too, one British superstock Honda 600 which was a bit of a laugh

  12. #91
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    Re: Lazy ESP?

    [ QUOTE ]
    And where's the obsession with "getting a car out of shape" you sound like Tiff Needell "Hand the back end out" but have you ever noticed that this may not be the fastest way from point A to point B

    [/ QUOTE ]

    It's not an obsession.
    It's called 'having fun'. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] (and before anyone mentions it,I don't endorse sliding cars around in busy traffic).

    It's something that has been discussed in other threads in the past.
    The Audi's handle in a very predictable and efficient manner,but it would take a wild imagine to say they're either involving or entertaining.
    Very few average cars are these days though.
    They cater for those that want to get from A to B efficiently,rather than enjoy themselves in the process.

    Years ago,I owned an RS2000 Escort (the rear wheel drive 'Professionals' one).There's zero doubt that I'm faster over my favourite road in my A3 (by miles) but I certainly don't smile in the process,like I did with the Escort.

    I have the bike for kicks though,so my senses aren't completely numbed.

  13. #92
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    Re: Lazy ESP?

    [ QUOTE ]


    [ QUOTE ]
    Then again, if it something the ESP can't handle, you are going way to fast or the accident is too sudden, so you haven't got a cat's chance in hell no matter how skilled you are.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    That kind of comment scares me.You're either far too reliant on the ESP,or have a completely false opinion of it's capabilities.It doesn't make the car uncrashable you know. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

    It is an AID to driving,not a REPLACEMENT for basic ability. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked2.gif[/img]

    It will HELP you,not take over !

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I've been on the Audi driving experience at Silverstone, putting an RS6 out of shape at 70mph. With ESP off, of course you can control it (if you have sufficient space). But with ESP on, at that speed, it hardly put a foot wrong; a little wiggle and it's straight again. At higher speeds it should be just as effective, but of course need more space. And I'm sure at a particular point of lunatic driver, even ESP will fail to sort you out.

    From that (albiet limited) experience, what's your conclusion? If it's a situation which ESP cannot get you out of, then why do you suppose you could? We are talking public roads here, not a track with an infinite amount of space. Your choice (like you would have one) is generally a ditch or hedge a metre to your left, or an oncoming car on the other. In certain conditions, both ESP and human skills will fail you. I am pretty sure which would fail first.

    Yes, it is meant to be an aid; there to help you out if you are driving sensibly but should you meet the unexpected. But it's a lot lot more than that. ABS is a lot more than that. What do they teach you to do in an emergency with ASB? Stamp on the brakes as hard as you can and let the electronics sort it out. Why is ABS deemed to be superior to human abilities, whereas ESP isn't? And as someone mentioned earlier, the Germans "appreciate" the benefits of ESP - no matter how nuts they are.

  14. #93
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    Re: Lazy ESP?

    [ QUOTE ]
    ....but it would take a wild imagine to say they're either involving or entertaining.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    no offense, and I think you know this already, but you may be driving the wrong Audi.

    My s3 keeps me plenty entertained.

  15. #94
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    Re: Lazy ESP?

    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    And where's the obsession with "getting a car out of shape" you sound like Tiff Needell "Hand the back end out" but have you ever noticed that this may not be the fastest way from point A to point B

    [/ QUOTE ]

    It's not an obsession.
    It's called 'having fun'. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] (and before anyone mentions it,I don't endorse sliding cars around in busy traffic).

    It's something that has been discussed in other threads in the past.
    The Audi's handle in a very predictable and efficient manner,but it would take a wild imagine to say they're either involving or entertaining.
    Very few average cars are these days though.
    They cater for those that want to get from A to B efficiently,rather than enjoy themselves in the process.

    Years ago,I owned an RS2000 Escort (the rear wheel drive 'Professionals' one).There's zero doubt that I'm faster over my favourite road in my A3 (by miles) but I certainly don't smile in the process,like I did with the Escort.

    I have the bike for kicks though,so my senses aren't completely numbed.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Oh bowfer, years ago when I had a proper job I was Parts Manager for a large Ford dealer that held an RS franchise.

    I so remember those 'professional' RS2000 drivers....."Above average drivers with below average luck", or complete w*nkers?

    I worked it out pretty soon - catering for those to$$ers was exceedingly lucrative, they used to read all the magazines and then arrive with a shopping list of go-faster parts.

    Disappear and then emerge 2-3 weeks later with a list of body repair components when 'luck' had caught them out again..................




  16. #95
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    Re: Lazy ESP?

    OK chill everyone - this is a nice forum. I understand where Bowfer is coming from, but I have to say I can't agree. Whilst I love the fact that Zondas have no ESP, and am not scared to drive the bird's Ka which also does without it, I don't feel cheated when I drive a car which does have it.

    This doesn't mean I feel invincible, and doesn't mean I stamp on the throttle in tight wet bends and let the ECU sort it out, but it might make all the difference one day, who knows?

    I've had a couple of accidents that might have been prevented by ESP, or perhaps by more driving skill (and fewer teenage hormones), but if ESP gives me a better chance when I hit a patch of ice or diesel, no probs - I'd rather have it than not.

  17. #96

    Re: Lazy ESP?

    I totally agree bunny. In normal responsible driving we should never need the help of the ESP, but there will always be the unexpected. As you say if you hit a unseen patch of ice or diesel ESP will give you a better chance of staying on the tarmac.

    The only problem with ABS is when you have to brake hard because of something happening in front of you and the vehicle behind you is not fitted with ABS!

  18. #97
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    Re: Lazy ESP?

    [ QUOTE ]
    Oh bowfer, years ago when I had a proper job I was Parts Manager for a large Ford dealer that held an RS franchise.

    I so remember those 'professional' RS2000 drivers....."Above average drivers with below average luck", or complete w*nkers?

    I worked it out pretty soon - catering for those to$$ers was exceedingly lucrative, they used to read all the magazines and then arrive with a shopping list of go-faster parts.

    Disappear and then emerge 2-3 weeks later with a list of body repair components when 'luck' had caught them out again..................



    [/ QUOTE ]

    Never really understood the desire to lump "go-faster" parts on any car (or bike) really (If I'm pressing on,I don't like advertising it),but there are plenty on here do it,so it's hardly restricted to a particular brand/type of car.

    [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

  19. #98
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    Re: Lazy ESP?

    [ QUOTE ]
    Most of us above the age of 25 have probably driven a fair number of cars without any form of traction control or ESP,and we're all still here to talk about it.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Who has said you will die without ESP? Just it's noted that it will lessen the accidents and road kills what.. 40%? Drugs kill people, smoking kills people, yet some people in these forums have tried both and are still here. Kinda lazy statement that one.

    [ QUOTE ]
    I can control wheelspin myself and I can control slides myself but,then again,I've been driving complete wrecks of cars around fields since I was 12.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Sure you can control small caused wheelspins. How would you control a situation where you're coming to a corner and just sliding sideways, not because of wheelspin? Just because there isn't sufficiently grip on the tyres, not at the back nor at the front. ESP can react to that, and save it (if physic laws allow it to save the situation). This isn't some controlled environment where you know it's going to happen. Or if you have time/space to use, unless of course someone is coming the other way..

    As for age of 25, I'm afraid most of the drivers here in the forums haven't really been in real icy situations or have experience in it. I don't fullfil the required 25 years of age, but I can say for certain that I've driven in ice/snow/meltsnow conditions more than most of the people in this forum. Ice isn't like wet road and there's different kinds of ice on the roads. Very unpredictable conditions and can't be seen by naked eye, or felt (ice's grip can change in every corner, every bridge and so on).

    There's nothing even a skilled driver can do in these situations. Unless of course you have 5-6 brake pedals and a computer as your reflex..

    [ QUOTE ]
    Christ,with ESP engaged,a skilled driver probably has little advantage over an unskilled one,but is that a good thing ?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    So that makes unskilled drivers as good as skilled drivers?

    [ QUOTE ]
    There's an argument that says the likes of ESP could actually lull poor drivers into a false sense of security,giving them a feeling of invincibility.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    There's such argument, however there's no truth to that. Every study has shown ESP to be a safety feature that saves lifes, and a lot.

    [ QUOTE ]
    I note the Zonda isn't fitted with any kind of electronic aid.
    Would you refuse to drive one Yak ? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Of course I would drive one. But not on winter (not that it would get anywhere, it would be stuck in the first corner, or first tree [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img])

    - Yak

    Note, do not compare summer and winter conditions, same rules don't apply. Summer conditions with water are much easier to predict and control. The braking distance in ice can be 10 times more than in dry conditions, now imagine that as increased speed to control your car in dry conditions.

  20. #99
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    Re: Lazy ESP?

    [ QUOTE ]
    Just it's noted that it will lessen the accidents and road kills what.. 40%?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Proof please,otherwise I will assume you've made that up.

  21. #100
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    Re: Lazy ESP?

    [ QUOTE ]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Just it's noted that it will lessen the accidents and road kills what.. 40%?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Proof please,otherwise I will assume you've made that up. [/qute]

    http://www.autofieldguide.com/columns/0305euro.html

  22. #101
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    Re: Lazy ESP?

    Damn, it was 42%, not 40% [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]. Anyway, estimated values from Finland were higher, but there's no studies ready yet.

  23. #102
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    Re: Lazy ESP?

    [ QUOTE ]
    I don;t I'm affraid but I'm sur ei can dig one up somewhere...

    To test out your theory get your car out in the rain, turn off ESP and boot it... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

    J.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Drove with ESP switched off most of yesterday. You're absolutely right - it must be the asymmetric drive shaft thing. It banged just as badly with ESP off as with it on. Still disconcerting though. Seemed to come from the front near side wheel. Is one wheel more prone to "bounce"?

 

 
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