NEW Sachs clutch is slipping!

O

Old-Boy-Racer

Guest
Hi All

This is really worrying. S3Alex has been very helpful but is also flummoxed by this. Any ideas gratefully recieved.

Car: '06 A3 170 TDi remapped to 205 BHP and about 320 torques. It's done 86K. Original (I beleive) clutch started to slip when I gave it welly in gears 4-6. It got more pronounced so - logical conclusion - clutch is getting tired needs replacing. Bought full Sachs Organic including DMF and release bearing. My mechanic fitted it and took it for a test run. Took it really steady as it needed bedding in. At about 35mph in 4th he had to give it a little bit of throttle to to get through some lights and it slipped. He had not just changed gear and his foot was resting on the foot rest. Tried a little throttle (just enough to get some boost) in 5th and it slipped again!

He and I both surprised that the pedal was as light as it was with OEM clutch. Also OEM clutch was not actually badly worn enough to explain slipping.

Advice from supplier is clutch needs bedding in fully over 5-800 miles. I assumed that meant don't go doing timed runs at Santa Pod or hold it for five minute on a hill etc. Apparaently it means driving it like a granny at just over tickover!

I have now done 350 miles in it driving gently. Yesterday I had to just give it a short blip on the throttle (no more than a quarter) in 4th and it slipped.

Supplier and mechanic mystified. This is an uprated clutch and should easily handle 370 BHP+. (BTW the OEM clutch in my chipped Golf Anni (190BHP and 300 torques) never slipped)

ANY IDEAS?

Mechanic says he had a Civic with similar symptoms and it turned out to be the flexihose to the clutch slave cylinder which had collapsed internally and was preventing the fluid retuning back to the master - effctively causing symptoms similar to resting your foot on the clutch pedal. He's goig to check mine out in next few days.

If anyone has any other ideas - please tell.

Thanks in advance

Alan
 
Hi again.

I'm really sorry this is still going on.

The Sachs is as light as the OEM so that's not unusual but the slipping has to be a fault elsewhere now.
 
shouldn't slip at all after being fitted. Should be spot on straight away.

And yep, the pedal should feel really light, mine was lovely! But DSG FTW ;)
 
I might be wrong but didn't akash have this problem when he had one fitted to his car???
seem to remember it had been installed incorrectly by his mechanic
would have a search for link but am on my phone
Just a thought for you
 
antmax7 said:
I might be wrong but didn't akash have this problem when he had one fitted to his car???
seem to remember it had been installed incorrectly by his mechanic
would have a search for link but am on my phone
Just a thought for you
Click to expand...

Thank you I'll try and find his posts.
 
antmax7 said:
I might be wrong but didn't akash have this problem when he had one fitted to his car???
seem to remember it had been installed incorrectly by his mechanic
would have a search for link but am on my phone
Just a thought for you
Click to expand...

Found Akash's tale of woe here: http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/a3-s3-...-worse-then-original-sachs-warranty-help.html
Then (bit of cunning detective work): http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/a3-s3-...-duel-mass-flywheel-knocking.html#post1127372

Quote: "Sorry for late reply- the drive plate was fitted incorrectly, all is well now Sachs set up with DMF is solid."

So there's another avenue for exploration.
 
Likewise.

Hope it may help.
 
S3Alex said:
Likewise.

Hope it may help.
Click to expand...

Thanks Alex

He has the car now and I am waiting to hear back if he has identified anything 'external' that's wrong.

If by Drive plate Akash means the friction plate my mechanic showed me the old unit and how it's impossible to fit the friction plate the wrong way round as the centre splined spigot is too long on one side and the friction material is prevented from resting on the flywheel by several millimetres. Also the 'correct' way round was the orientation of the old clutch, and the way that Darkside part assembled the new one. This could all be wrong of course. The friction plate did not have any markings saying 'gearbox side' (Getriebeseite) so there has to be a little doubt.
 
When this happened to me after fitting a new Sachs Clutch & OEM DMF it was because the friction plate was fitted the wrong way around! One sign of this is that new clutch biting point was WAY higher after the new one was fitted.
 
Old-Boy-Racer said:
Thanks Alex

He has the car now and I am waiting to hear back if he has identified anything 'external' that's wrong.

If by Drive plate Akash means the friction plate my mechanic showed me the old unit and how it's impossible to fit the friction plate the wrong way round as the centre splined spigot is too long on one side and the friction material is prevented from resting on the flywheel by several millimetres. Also the 'correct' way round was the orientation of the old clutch, and the way that Darkside part assembled the new one. This could all be wrong of course. The friction plate did not have any markings saying 'gearbox side' (Getriebeseite) so there has to be a little doubt.
Click to expand...

Not sure if the part no for your fricition plate is the same as on my 2.0TFSI, pretty sure it is though, and mine WAS fitted the wrong way a round. So in my case at least it was possible. Mine was a quattro and a petrol but I don't think that makes any difference here.
 
Thanks Akash

According to research done by mechanic with Sachs, the right way round is with the longer of the centre spigots facing the gearbox and this is the way round mine was installed. Another possible cause eliminated!

Sachs said it is possible to fit the wrong way but actually wouldnt make any significant difference to coefficient of friction.

Did flipping yours round make a huge difference?
 
BTW the biting point is normal and clutch operates very nicely. Progressive feel and nice gearchanges.
 
Are you still having problems?

If so,I really do hope firstly I didn't compound them with advice on changing the clutch,and secondly that it's fixed soon.
 
Hi Alex

It's still not 100%. Mechanic has had it back and has replaced the master cylinder and the restrictor valve and pipes. No immediate solution, but he has been driving it (with my knowledge) for a few days and reports that the slipping IS IMPROVING. Got it back today and he's suggesting giving it another 500+ miles and then review the situation. I have yet to drive it properly so will report progress.

Alex; your advice has been very welcome and I do not believe anything you have suggested has made anything worse. I am convinced I have the right kit installed (properly) it's just mysterious why it isn't working better. Obviously, now I've eliminated anything external, if it's still not right in 500+ miles it must be some kind of defect with the clutch parts so I will have to pull it out and have a look.

Interestingly advice/comments I have recieved from various forums have ranged from:
Bed it in for a couple of days/100 miles
Bed it in for 500 miles/800-1000 miles before you get it on boost in higher gears
Bed it in by doing several "learner" hill starts (allowing to cool between) or equivalent
Don't bed it in it's an uprated clutch it should work right out of the box

On the Valeo website I found this (http://www.valeoclutches.com/media/document/ClutchSlippage.pdf) - summarised relevant bits below:

NEW INSTALLATION
The primary causes of this slippage are related to clutch misinstallation, misadjustment and misapplication as follows:
1.1 Mis-installation
• Used flywheel not resurfaced (has grooves, steps, heat checking, hard spots or is not flat)NEW DMF SO UNLIKELY
• Clutch bolts not tightened UNLIKELY - MECHANIC VERY THOROUGH
• Grease or oil on flywheel (lowering friction level) AGAIN UNLIKELY - MECHANIC VERY THOROUGH - NO SIGN OF LEAKAGE PRIOR TO FITTING
• Clutch release system binding HOPEFULLY NOW ELIMINATED
• Wrong clutch installed (not enough torque capacity) SACHS CLUTCH SHOULD NEGATE THIS!
• Clutch bolts too long (prevents clutch from being drawn tight against flywheel) ???????????
• Clutch break-in required (a diaphragm spring clutch has its lowest torque capacity when new, and when combined with the lower friction level of new facings and grease or oil on the clutch or flywheel, it can sometimes slip when full torque is immediately applied. A few miles of low torque “break-in” usage will usually burn off oil and grease contamination and properly seat the friction facings, increasing their friction level) INTERESTING!!!!!
• Overly thick clutch disc installed (prevents the clutch from developing its full clamp load) ????????????
• Clutch disc installed backwards - AKASH'S ISSUE BUT AM ASSURED IT WAS INSTALLED CORRECTLY WITH LONGER SPIGOT FACING THE GEARBOX

2. LOW MILEAGE
Diaphragm spring clutches have their lowest torque capacity when new. Initial usage normally causes the clutch to grow stronger. In this case however, clutch conditions which were insufficient to cause slipping when new have deteriorated enough in a few miles to the point where slippage can occur. This includes misadjustment, vehicle release system defects, clutch contamination,
driver abuse and clutch dimensional and performance parameters.
2.1 Misadjustment
• Clutch pedal upper stop adjusted too low preventing full upward travel of pedal for hydraulic release systems (prevents linkage self-adjusting feature from functioning)

ALSO:
Slipping
​
The self-adjusting mechanism has become jammed
​
Replace or repair the self-adjusting mechanism
or in the case of semiautomatic adjusters - reset.
​

MY MECHANIC WAS CONCERNED ABOUT THIS. The clutch arrived with the pressure plate bolted to the flywheel, with the friction plate sandwiched between. He knew when he unbolted them that the auto adjustment would go to its maximum (for a worn friction plate) and would need to be reset using a VERY expensive rewind tool. Darkside assured us that he should just install it then pump the pedal 10+ times before starting up which he did. Now I wonder if this was completely effective. Sachs indicated that they feel it is bad practise to supply clutches this way!



AND ON BREAKING IN:

  • Proper testing and break-in are critical to optimum performance and long clutch life. Clutchbreak-in must be performed under controlled circumstances.

  • Also, checking for a correct installation through a test drive and break-in assuresproper operation and results in a satisfied customer.

  • On new clutch installations, a short vehicle test drive should be completed to break in or seat the new friction material to the flywheel and pressure plate surfaces. During the test drive it is possiblethat the clutch could slip until the friction surfaces are seated in.

  • Often, slippage indicates that the clutch or flywheel is contaminated with grease or oil and the break-in process is actually burning off this material.
  • Limited slippage benefits the break-in process by allowing the friction surfaces to wear slightly. allowing the clutch to seat.

SO NO 1000 MILE BREAK INS THEN! LAST SENTENCE SUGGESTS THAT HALF DOZEN LEARNER HILL STARTS MIGHT BE A VIABLE PRO ACTIVE METHOD?

THIS CAUTIONARY NOTE FOLLOWS:

NOTE
If excessive slippage occurs and is allowed to continue, clutch temperatures will quickly rise and cause more slippage. If this
happens, the vehicle should be allowed to stand for 30 to 60 minutes so that the clutch can cool down. Usually, normal operation
(without slippage) will resume after cool down.

CAUTION
Sustained slipp age of the c lutch can damage the clutch friction material.

I also found this LUK troubleshooting document: http://www.schaeffler.com/remotemedien/media/_shared_media/08_media_library/01_publications/automotiveaftermarket/brochure_1/downloads_5/luk_schadensdiagnose_pkw_en.pdf

........but it does not really add anything to the Valeo information.

CONCLUSION: Next 500 miles I shall be careful not to overheat it but will deliberately do things to encourage bedding in (i.e. an extra few seconds slipping it as I pull away in 1st etc. If that doesn't bed it in then I will have it pulled out and look for/check:

Auto adjustment wrong
Contamination
Pressure plate wrong way round
Bolts too long
Overly thick pressure plate
All part numbers

Wish me luck! :banghead:
 
Good lord, all the best mate, nothing worse than spending good money to end up in a similar situation. Have the supplier double checked all part #'s to ensure they tie up and what was in the box matches the part number?
 
warren_S3 said:
Good lord, all the best mate, nothing worse than spending good money to end up in a similar situation. Have the supplier double checked all part #'s to ensure they tie up and what was in the box matches the part number?
Click to expand...

Didn't check before install! Wont do that again. Will check if we end up pulling it out.
 
Good luck with this mate, im in the process of upgrading to the 170 bhp from my 140bhp bkd....luckily though its a DSG.
 
Thanks Dex

Got the car back thre days ago. I have been driving around for a few days. Now done close on 700 miles of 'bedding in'. Master cylinder and restrictor valves all new. Flexi hose carefully checked and is fine.

Decided to test the clutch a little: 2000 rpm 4th gear then gave it half throttle. Car accelerates then rpm suddenly jumps 2-300 and drops back as soon as I lift off. DAMN! It feels like switching out of overdrive or an automatic kick down but without the acceleration!

So next I initiate the slip four times on the trot. Each time the slip gets a little less! The fifth time, almost no slip in 4th. Tried 5th at 2500 rpm - still some slip. Stopped and left car for 30 mins. On journey home clutch slip in 4th is back - same as before! Note: I am being very careful not to hold the slip for more than a second or two, and I'm giving it time between each one to let the disc cool.

Also when I take my foot off the throttle there's a sort of pause where there is no drive (like neutral) for 1-2 seconds then the engine braking seems to 'feed' in.

So nothing else for it. Going to have it pulled out next week and check:

Auto adjustment?
All part numbers correct?
Contamination?
Pressure plate wrong way round?
Bolts too long/pressuere plate properly seated/bolted?
Overly thick pressure plate?
Difference in overall thickness of assembly compared to original?

Any other suggestions welcomed.
 
Just accidentally made it do it in 3rd at 2500 rpm. Not good.
 
theres something not right in how theyve fitted it. either the flywheel was very grooved or worn. an oil leak. theyve not cleaned the light oil off it when fitting it.

a new clutch should be fine out of the box. no real "bedding in" is required. just avoid slipping it on purpose for the first 3-500 miles.
 
murran said:
theres something not right in how theyve fitted it. either the flywheel was very grooved or worn. an oil leak. theyve not cleaned the light oil off it when fitting it.

a new clutch should be fine out of the box. no real "bedding in" is required. just avoid slipping it on purpose for the first 3-500 miles.
Click to expand...

Hi Murran

Thanks for the comments. The DMF and pressure plate were both brand new and carefully cleaned before fitting. Release bearing/slave was also new and no leaks were evident at time of fitting. Bell housing dry as a bone. I fully trust my mechanic. Used him for years.
 
did they have any trouble bleeding it up? does this car have one of those restrictor valves in the clutch hard line? that might be faulty holding pressure when the pedal is released?
 
murran said:
did they have any trouble bleeding it up? does this car have one of those restrictor valves in the clutch hard line? that might be faulty holding pressure when the pedal is released?
Click to expand...

No trouble bleeding up. Restrictor valve and master cylinder have been replaced
 
On my s3 with clutch slip I dumped the restrictor and replaced it with the cnc one from awesome which is full bore and it hasnt slipped once since but my slip was never as bad as yours. I assume by restrictor you mean the bleed T between the slave and hose. Once i took the T off its clear that it can be drilled out say 3mm and put it back. Its an easy and cheap so worth a go.
 
legin said:
On my s3 with clutch slip I dumped the restrictor and replaced it with the cnc one from awesome which is full bore and it hasnt slipped once since but my slip was never as bad as yours. I assume by restrictor you mean the bleed T between the slave and hose. Once i took the T off its clear that it can be drilled out say 3mm and put it back. Its an easy and cheap so worth a go.
Click to expand...

What difference did this make to pedal feel and clutch operation?
 
Car went back into mechanic today. Waiting to see what he's found.
 
Car went back into mechanic this morning. He has found as follows:

No contamination - or leaks from crankshaft or hydraulics
Tiny amount of glazing to only a small part of friction material
Friction/clutch disc was in the right way
Self adjustment was even and OK
Pressure plate bolted up evenly

· SACHS Part Numbers
· Flywheel - 2294 000 113 / correct but three equidistant burns/hot spots on surface and a lot of play (not rotational)
· Pressure Plate - 883082 999788 / incorrect (3082000396) three burn marks/hot spots equidistant (matching flywheel)
· Organic Clutch Disc - 881864 999502 / incorrect (1864999980)
· Release Bearing - 3182 997 901 / ??? can't find any numbers on it so assume it is correct for now.

Now waiting to hear from supplier.
 
Hi mate ,pressure plate for a sachs is 883082999787,clutch is 881864999502, this is for the audi s3 8p2/3, the plate and clutch are for the dmf set up....
 
Given the burn marks on the flywheel,I wonder if either the plate or the flywheel were not perfectly flat,allowing some slip?
 
True. My mechanic had never seen such regular hot spots and very odd that they match on the pressure plate! Clearly the clamping area has been focused on these three high points which will reduce clutches' ability not to slip.

In addition it turns out that the pressure plate is a standard one not the uprated SRE one. Aparently all the uprated ones have 999 as the first three of the last six numbers (i.e. Pressure Plate - correct 3082 999788 / incorrect (3082000396). Ryan at Darkside (he's the guy that does the spannering) can't understand why Scott (on holiday) sold me the standard pressure plate given the situation of a remap and a standard clutch slipping. He explained that the Organic disc I have IS an SRE one (see the 999 in the number:1864999980) and correct for my car. It has a different number as it comes from a different kit. Also whilst the Organic Disc will take more punishment than the standard one it does not provide any appreciable increase in friction; that is provided mainly by the uprated pressure plate and its increased clamping force.

The upshot is that Darkside are replacing the Flywheel and Pressure Plate plus 12 new bolts FOC (plus a small upgrade cost as I only paid for the standard Pressure Plate). The Organic disc is in good nick and shows almost no signs of wear so we are refitting that. Obviously I'd have liked something for the aditional labour cost but ho hum! Darkside have remained very concerned and approachable throughout and offered the deal without prompting.

So; with any luck, I will be able to report back next week that the clutch is refitted and working fine. Fingers crossed.
 
s3kel said:
Hi mate ,pressure plate for a sachs is 883082999787,clutch is 881864999502, this is for the audi s3 8p2/3, the plate and clutch are for the dmf set up....
Click to expand...

Hi Kel

Mine's a 2.0 TDi so totally different clutch (I think) to the S3, but note the 999s in your product numbers. Surprised your Organic disc isthe same number (881864999502) as mine.
 
Hi mate thats what i was thinking ,it should be different to a petrol 8p set up.
 
When i had my sachs clutch kit done on my previous 8P3 S3 last year, my box sat next to me has the code '3000951830' on.


Was this the uprated one?? it didnt slip or anything so assumed it was?
 
Good luck with this.....it's been a long haul and I really do hope it's fixed soon.
 
mjr901 said:
When i had my sachs clutch kit done on my previous 8P3 S3 last year, my box sat next to me has the code '3000951830' on.

Was this the uprated one?? it didnt slip or anything so assumed it was?
Click to expand...

I don't think it is. I checked on the following site: Kupplung - Sachs Performance Sportkupplung Fahrwerk Verstärke Kupplung

8P S3 Uprated (SRE) clutch kits are numbered: [001394.999502] [883089.000034] [883089.000035]

Googled your part number and that kit (3000951830) comes up here: SACHS Clutch Kit - 3000 951 830 - Replacement Audi, Porsche, Seat, Skoda and Volkswagen Parts and lookes like its a standard replacement which fits a variety of VAG engines:

Original Part Number

AUDI
06F 141 015 C
022 141 015 R
SEAT
06F 141 015 C
022 141 015 R
SKODA
06F 141 015 C
022 141 015 R
VW
06F 141 015 C
022 141 015 R
 
The car us back! Picked it up last night.

Pedal feels firmer and there is a real feel to it. You can really tell where the bite pint is and there's a real sense if working against a spring. Took a little getting used to (stalled it twice!) but after thirty mins it was enjoyable to use.

Itvtajes a little more care feeding it in as it can easily snatch, and will probably be hard work in stop start traffic but not so much to concern me.

The BIG NEWS is that it doesn't slip at all. Obviously I am taking it steady for a bit to "bed it in" (no traffic light drag races etc.) but once in gear it just pulls. Tried all the things that caused slippage before and not a sign.

In the end Darksude replaced the DMF, clutch cover and organic disc. It's cost me the labour to refit but my mechanic will do a deal on that. So EVENTUALLY I've got what I wanted. Very happy. My opinion of the Sachs product is restored. Well done to Darkside for their no quibble service.

I think I'll take my mechanics advice and go back to R-Tech to have them adjust the remap to make the power feed in more progressive. The clutch us handling it now but it was useful to have him drive it and feed back to me. The remap they did on my Anni was very nice and the Audi is all a bit "sudden"!

Thanks to all who have offered advice or sympathy.

By the way; regarding part numbers, aparrenyly Sachs are changing their part numbers so beware!
 
Some pics of the one we took out.

12689c872ec45e5989523f7582732387.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Really pleased it's finally working.

It IS a good clutch,but there was clearly something seriously wrong with your one from the start.
 
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